Romans 9, neither Calvinist nor Arminian

[TaylorSexton]

This is not what Jesus said.

It most certainly is. He would not be at odds with his own Word.

Man is NOT guilty of another's sins. Man is accountable for his sins only.

You clearly have not read Romans 5.

Your theory leaves no hope for anyone.

All God's elect have hope, just not in themselves. You say you have no hope because you now realize that Scripture leaves no room for salvation by your own works, and that makes you uneasy. That's good. The gospel is offensive. What I said above gives me great hope because I know I could never achieve salvation by anything I do. Rather, it forces me to rely on and hope in the work of another, in whom hope only belongs. I pray you would do the same.

...those with reason and understanding will reject such teaching.

Then they with their reason and understanding reject Scripture.

 

[EmSw]

It most certainly is. He would not be at odds with his own Word.

Here is your quote: The only reward for any of the works we do here on earth is death, both physical and spiritual, the latter being eternal.

Now let's read what Jesus said:

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Do you not see the reward for those who do good, that is, good works? It is the resurrection of LIFE! Yet, you say it is death.

You clearly have not read Romans 5.

And you clearly have not read Ezekiel 18:19, 20, which says, "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father". Yet, you want to put the father's iniquity upon the son.

All God's elect have hope, just not in themselves. You say you have no hope because you now realize that Scripture leaves no room for salvation by your own works, and that makes you uneasy. That's good. The gospel is offensive. What I said above gives me great hope because I know I could never achieve salvation by anything I do. Rather, it forces me to rely on and hope in the work of another, in whom hope only belongs. I pray you would do the same.

Actually I said your theory leaves no hope for anyone, and I am not uneasy at all with my beliefs. Your theory gives a false hope from a dead faith.

 

[bling]

First, you must demonstrate how this parable his anything to do with regeneration. I refuse to answer a question that is asked on false assumptions.

I am just trying to get some agreement on your biblical definition of "work", so we do not have to limit it to just "regeneration".
If a person "A" goes to Jesus asking to be healed and Jesus heals person "A", did person "A" work for his healing? Was he in someway deserving of his healing or earn the right to be healed? If person "B" does not ask to be healed when he had the opportunity and is not healed by Christ is it all Christ's fault for not healing him?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Do you not see the reward for those who do good, that is, good works? It is the resurrection of LIFE! Yet, you say it is death.

And yet we are told in Scripture that there is no one who does good (not even one), that anything done without faith is sin, and that even what we call righteous is a filthy rag before God. Based on this knowledge alone, it is clear that, without Christ and the indwelling of his Spirit, everything we do is evil.

And you clearly have not read Ezekiel 18:19, 20, which says, "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father". Yet, you want to put the father's iniquity upon the son.

"I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." — Exodus 20:5 (cf., Exod. 34:7; Numb. 14:18)
"One trespass led to condemnation for all men." —Romans 5:18
"By the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners." —Romans 5:19

As I see it, Paul's parallel of Adam and Christ in Romans chapter 5 stands or falls on imputation. If Adam's guilt is not imputed to us who did not commit his sin, Christ's righteousness can also not be imputed to us who did not have his righteousness. This is such a glorious passage.

Actually I said your theory leaves no hope for anyone, and I am not uneasy at all with my beliefs. Your theory gives a false hope from a dead faith.

Why be so insulting to my faith? Surely your assertion is false, as this, what you call a "theory," gives hope to millions. Surely you don't think I am the only one in the world with such convictions? God's election is my ultimate hope, for without it, I am damned in my own iniquity.

Regardless, I tire of arguing. It gets no one anywhere, and I, for one, am surely not edified by it. My convictions stand, as do yours, and that's okay. I can't change your mind; you can't change mine. I have my convictions from my reading of Scripture; you have yours. I think you're wrong; you think I am. That's fine, I suppose. I just tire of this conversation. It is truly discouraging and wearisome for me, as I truly have much on my plate at the moment.

I swallow my pride and give you all the pleasure of the last word(s).

 

[sdowney717]

And yet we are told in Scripture that there is no one who does good (not even one), that anything done without faith is sin, and that even what we call righteous is a filthy rag before God. Based on this knowledge alone, it is clear that, without Christ and the indwelling of his Spirit, everything we do is evil.



"I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." — Exodus 20:5 (cf., Exod. 34:7; Numb. 14:18)
"One trespass led to condemnation for all men." —Romans 5:18
"By the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners." —Romans 5:19

As I see it, Paul's parallel of Adam and Christ in Romans chapter 5 stands or falls on imputation. If Adam's guilt is not imputed to us who did not commit his sin, Christ's righteousness can also not be imputed to us who did not have his righteousness. This is such a glorious passage.



Why be so insulting to my faith? Surely your assertion is false, as this, what you call a "theory," gives hope to millions. Surely you don't think I am the only one in the world with such convictions? God's election is my ultimate hope, for without it, I am damned in my own iniquity.

Regardless, I tire of arguing. It gets no one anywhere, and I, for one, am surely not edified by it. My convictions stand, as do yours, and that's okay. I can't change your mind; you can't change mine. I have my convictions from my reading of Scripture; you have yours. I think you're wrong; you think I am. That's fine, I suppose. I just tire of this conversation. It is truly discouraging and wearisome for me, as I truly have much on my plate at the moment.

I swallow my pride and give you all the pleasure of the last word(s).

No man can change the mind of another man regarding spiritual truth and falsehood. The Lord is the one who opens the minds of men, shining his light into their hearts, flesh and blood does not reveal, but it does testify to the truth. Christ is the source of light to men.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Meaning, if Christ does not shine the light, no light is going to be there. Any light that exists comes from Christ to all men. And this is true for every man born in this world.

2 Corinthians 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
4 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:5
[ Fellowship with Him and One Another ] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

 

[Jan001]

Agree, but this is not evidence that God cannot harden specific people at specific time and for specific reasons. And multiple texts plainly say that He does. You have a difficult job - to explain why a statement like "God hardened Pharaoh" means "Pharaoh hardened Pharaoh". I am not saying this is impossible, but it seems really unlikely and I believe you would need to provide independent evidence that this strange way of expressing things was actually used in the culture in which the Biblical texts were written. And I do not believe you have done so, although I may have missed something.

FYI: All Scripture in this post is from the NKJV

You believe that God can act against His own nature. He cannot. God cannot and does not force people to disobey His commandments so that He can then punish them for disobeying Him.

Anytime a person reads and interprets a Scripture which seems to contradict these incontrovertible facts about the nature of our God is in error with his interpretation.

The true nature of our GOD:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Since the Lord wants everyone to believe in Him and attain eternal life, since He died as a ransom for all people, since He is not willing for any people to be condemned, and since He desires for all people to come to repentance; He certainly does not prevent them from coming to repentance by forcing them to sin. This includes Pharaoh.

No. I suggest you may not understand what it means to "pre-destine". To "pre-destine" someone to eternal life means to ensure that the person will get eternal life. And it is clear from other things you write that you do not believe this. This may just be semantics since I think I know that you believe that we each "choose" to accept or reject the gift of salvation. I believe this too, even though I can understand why you might lump me in the with the garden-variety Calvinists.

Before the foundation of the world, God predestined people (made them His elect) according to His foreknowledge of all their future acts. The people whom He knew would be still faithful until death, these He predestined to eternal life. All the other people who never believed, or else fell away from the faith, or else failed to do the good works that God prepared for them to do; these people God did not predestine to eternal life before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

God did not arbitrarily choose some people for salvation and others for destruction.

Yes, those who freely accept Jesus get eternal life. But the very concept of "predestination" takes away this freedom to choose. I simply think you are using a misleading word, and I otherwise fully agree with you.

Those who freely accept Jesus and then obey His commandments until they die get eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-17
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Where we differ appears to be this:

I believe that God can choose to actively harden someone who has otherwise already freely rejected Him.

God causes no person to sin against Him.

I happen to agree with this, except that I believe that God does "give up" on some people after a time and then actively hardens them. There is a lot of Biblical evidence for this that goes beyond mere statements like "God hardened Pharaoh" or "God has the right to make vessels for destruction". And I have not even begun to get into those larger arguments.

Our God is all-good, therefore He cannot harden Pharaoh so that Pharaoh is forced to sin against Him. God cannot do evil. For God to force Pharaoh to sin would be a great evil.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

God does not tempt any person to sin.
God does not command a person to sin so that He can then punish him for sinning.

 

[expos4ever]

You believe that God can act against His own nature.

This is clearly circular reasoning: the very thing that needs to be proved, and not assumed as you have done, is that to harden (in the qualified sense I am about to assert) is against God's nature. Where, and please be specific, have you made a Biblical case - not a case that appeals to "popular" intuitions - that God cannot harden someone who has already freely rejected Him.

The true nature of our GOD:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, but you are going beyond this; you have effectively rewritten the above to mean this:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, and He will never stop trying to bring that person into the Kingdom until that person's dying moment.

Believe me: I would agree with you were it not for the fact that texts directly say God hardens!

Same thing re 1 Tim 2:3-6 and 2 Peter 3:9: You are assuming that God never gives up on the person- it is one thing to want all to be saved, it is another to never give up.

I repeat:

1. Multiple Bible texts directly assert that God hardens. This cannot be denied;

2. You have made no case (that isn't clearly circular) that these texts mean something other than a plain, literal reading would suggest.

 

[Jan001]

You are not saved by works—ever. Paul as well as James assert this vehemently. This includes every part of salvation: predestination, election, calling, justification, sanctification and glorification. It is all of God. It was initiated by God and it is finished by God (Philip. 1:6; cf. Heb. 12:2). Your use of James chapter 2 is troublesome at best, as James is clearly not saying that we are saved by works, especially since he doesn't use the word at all. Rather, he uses "justified," to wit, our faith is shown to be genuine (justified) by our works. Of course, being yourself a Catholic, your tradition blinds and deceives you, so I doubt you will ever be convinced, for if your tradition crashes with Scripture, it is surely tradition that trumps, as shown even by your reply to me above. Regardless, if James there is saying what you assert he is saying, then either Paul or James needs to be cast out of our Scriptures as a flagrant heretic. Of course, we know this is not the case. The same, I say, goes for your use of Matthew 7:21-23. You quote it as if Jesus is saying, "You are saved by works," when yet two statements later he casts into hell people who had done nothing but works, even in his name.

1. We are saved by grace alone. It is the Holy Spirit's presence alone within us which continues to save us. If the Holy Spirit of Grace is not found still abiding within us at the time of death, we will not be approved to enter into eternal life.

John 3:24
The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” niv

John 15:5-6
I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. niv

Please note that the Holy Spirit does not remain in the people who disobey God.

Hebrews 10:26-30
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” niv

2. Not every person who receives salvation from God will still have the Holy Spirit of Grace abiding within him at the time of his death.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. niv

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, nkjv

3. Jesus states very plainly and unambiguously that if we want to inherit/enter eternal life, we must obey His commandments.

Matthew 19:16-19
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” nkjv

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. nkjv

4. Jesus states that we must do good works if we desire to enter into eternal life.

Luke 10:25-37
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” 37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” nkjv

Please note that Jesus told the lawyer that he had to "go and do good things for his neighbor," in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not tell the lawyer to just simply believe in Him and trust in Him in order to inherit eternal life.

Here are a couple of examples of the necessity for doing good works in order to inherit eternal life:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. nkjv

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

These things which we are commanded to do in order to be approved to enter/inherit eternal life are called fruits/deeds/works.

James 2:20-24
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. nkjv

5. A person does not continue to believe in Jesus Christ unless he does what God commands him to do.

Luke 6:46
But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? nkjv

Matthew 7:21-24
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. nkjv

 

[bleitzel]

Brethren, brethren, brethren. This debate has gone on for 2,000 years. Enough already! Salvation is by Grace through Faith, the Gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. Who gives the Gift? Based upon what? Get over it.

However, from the days of Calvin et. al., theologians have been teaching a doctrine of election that Paul never intended. We're going back 2,000 years to right a wrong and clear up this false doctrine of election. It hurts too many good people.

 

[Jan001]

This is clearly circular reasoning: the very thing that needs to be proved, and not assumed as you have done, is that to harden (in the qualified sense I am about to assert) is against God's nature. Where, and please be specific, have you made a Biblical case - not a case that appeals to "popular" intuitions - that God cannot harden someone who has already freely rejected Him.

Do you believe that God is a trinity of Persons? If so, please show the biblical evidence.

If God is all-good, how is it possible for Him to do evil?

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” nkjv​

Yes, but you are going beyond this; you have effectively rewritten the above to mean this:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, and He will never stop trying to bring that person into the Kingdom until that person's dying moment.

Believe me: I would agree with you were it not for the fact that texts directly say God hardens!

I do agree with your summary of my belief. God never stops trying to bring the sinner to repentance until the person's dying moment.

Luke 15:3-7
Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. niv​

Using your own understanding of how to interpret the Scriptures, please see that the following text directly says you must hate your father and mother, spouse and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life or you cannot be Jesus' disciple.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."niv​

Do you hate your father and mother, spouse and children, brothers and sisters - yes, even your own life? If you do not hate them right now, Scripture says that you are not now Jesus' disciple. In other words, you are not saved.

Same thing re 1 Tim 2:3-6 and 2 Peter 3:9: You are assuming that God never gives up on the person- it is one thing to want all to be saved, it is another to never give up.

I repeat:
1. Multiple Bible texts directly assert that God hardens. This cannot be denied;
2. You have made no case (that isn't clearly circular) that these texts mean something other than a plain, literal reading would suggest.

Multiple Scripture texts do contradict each other if they are each read in a literal sense.

Here is an example of two Scriptures which contract each other.

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved:

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. niv
​

Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved:

Luke 13:22-28
And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. nkjv
​

This is why Peter warns all of us:

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. nkjv



​

 

[expos4ever]

Of course!

No offense, but I just don't find your answer satisfactory at all. Paul of course begins by lamenting his lost ethnic brothers, but I don't see, again, how this fact at all alters what Paul is saying quite plainly in Rom. 9:19-24. He used Jew and non-Jew, young (even unborn) and old is his illustration of the doctrine.

Granted, Paul does use an example of a Gentile (Pharaoh) being hardened. Now here is the key point - it could be nothing more than an example of a general principle of God being able to harden. As such, it might therefore not be evidence that Paul is saying that the specific hardening in Romans 9 through 11 includes Gentiles. And more to the point, it could, repeat could be used to make the following argument: "Just as God hardened Pharaoh for a specific purpose, so God has hardened Israel". I politely suggest your position cannot allow this possibility. Why not? Because once this possibility is conceded, the context overwhelming supports it. You have to rule this possibility out to pre-empt this. But you clearly cannot legitimately do this.

Suppose I wanted to make the case that a certain cook had overdone a batch of chocolate chip cookies. Part of my case might be to point out that this same cook had once overdone some oatmeal cookies. That would be an example of the general principle that this cook does, at times, overdo cookies. If it is otherwise clear that the context of the present treatment is the matter of the cook overdoing the chocolate chip cookies, the fact that an example has been provided of a different kind of cookie being overdone does not change that.

And that, I suggest, is the case here. The potter has hardened some people. The fact that an example is provided of a Gentile being hardened does not at all advance the case that the potter is now hardening Gentiles. The context shows that, in the Romans 9 to 11 scenario at least, the people being hardened are Jews:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[expos4ever]

Do you believe that God is a trinity of Persons? If so, please show the biblical evidence.

What? We are not talking about the Trinity! Please do not attempt to divert the reader from the fact that you have a case to make: that the Bible does not allow for the possibility that God hardens people who have already rejected Him.

I can make a Biblical case for the Trinity, but that is not what you are talking about!

I am extremely skeptical that you will be able to make the case you need to make to defend your position.[/QUOTE]

 

[expos4ever]

Brethren, brethren, brethren. This debate has gone on for 2,000 years. Enough already! Salvation is by Grace through Faith, the Gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. Who gives the Gift? Based upon what? Get over it.

Really? Well what do you think Paul meant by these words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will get the popcorn - the answers to this question are always very interesting....

 

[expos4ever]

The way I see it, you are trying to use context to completely trump the plain (and seemingly universal) statement of Paul in Rom. 9:19-24, essentially making context more important than the text.

But let's be clear: The text simply does not say who the vessels fitted for destruction are. So the only way to determine who they are is indeed context. Do you deny this? Surely you will not.

 

[expos4ever]

Is God all-good? YES.
Can God do evil? NO.

Because God is all-good and because He cannot do evil, He cannot possibly force people to sin against Him.

Well, the text say what they say:

just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,

It is what it is - a clear declaration that God sent a stupor that caused Israel to fall into error. Is this God "doing evil"?

Interesting question, but unless you deny inerrancy, you have to accept: God did indeed send a stupor.

I know you have said these kinds of statements are a "Semitic" style of speaking where the intent is different from what the word mean on a "plain" reading.

Well, by all means make your case for this. But please do not use circular reasoning - you need to provide independent evidence that this form of speech was used.

 

[expos4ever]

The authors of the OT sometimes used a type of speech which made it seem as if all the actions of the people - both good and evil - were God's will and this is because God permits them to choose for themselves to do either good or evil. This is known as God's permissive will. God does not cause nor condone evil.

You cannot simply claim this; you need to make a case. I will now try to explain why the texts you provided do not make that case. To be fair to you, however, I think your argument is actually a lot better than I thought to this point. But I still think that it ultimately does not work as I will attempt to explain below.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9:13&version=NIV

The NT seems to teach us God literally hated Esau. I assure you that God did not literally hate Esau. God simply preferred Jacob to be the patriarch of the Israelites and not Esau. Before the foundation of the world, God knew that Esau would sell his birthright for a bowl of lentil soup simply because he was hungry. Esau would not have made a strong patriarch for God's people and so God chose Jacob instead.

I happen to agree with you here. And this does indeed show that in some cases language can be misleading - things are not always to be read literally. But, and this is really important, there is a profound structural difference between this example and the stuff about hardening: In the "God hates Esau" case, we are saying that the word "hate" is used to describe the way God "treats" Esau. And I agree: this is an "exaggerated" use of the word "hate" to denote a relation that does not entail real hate. In the "God hardens Pharaoh" case, the issue is who is the responsible agent, not "what is the nature of a relationship". So the Esau example is not an example that supports your case, although it does indeed establish the general principle - which I have always agreed with - that the "plain reading" is not necessarily correct.

I will need to think some more before getting back to you. But again, to your credit, I think I underestimated the challenge your argument poses.

 

[expos4ever]

I totally agree that for the most part Ro. 9-11 is directed at the gentiles, but that is no obvious to everyone.

There can be a lot of stuff God predestines, but individual salvation is the result of the individual’s sovereign free will choice. Just because God “predestines’ something does not mean everything is predestined.

I agree with all this and I confess that I had assumed you were a believer in predestination to an ultimate fate (salvation or loss). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[expos4ever]

I do not normally say things like this, as I feel that it does not contribute to fruitful discussion, but in this case, I feel that you have slipped wholly outside orthodoxy, as that statement is thoroughly Pelagian and damning heresy.

Note, I say this not because I am a Calvinist. Any Arminian should convulse at that horrifying assertion. As Scripture clearly says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not that of the more general category of “good works”.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses in its specific role of being an ethnic marker (or badge) is being denied. On this view, Paul is in no way denying that good works are relevant to salvation, something he actually affirms in Romans 2: God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Instead, Paul is simply saying: Justification is not for Jews only.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, the author uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “works”

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

 

[sdowney717]

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not that of the more general category of “good works”.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works” is not qualified by the term “good” or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works” of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses in its specific role of being an ethnic marker (or badge) is being denied. On this view, Paul is in no way denying that good works are relevant to salvation, something he actually affirms in Romans 2: God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Instead, Paul is simply saying: Justification is not for Jews only.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, the author uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “works”

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side” of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

Faith precedes good works. the only works God calls good are the ones God Himself created beforehand for us to do.
Good works done before faith are dirty rags to God. Dirty rags-clothes do a poor job of covering up sins, obviously, God sees right through that.

If God creates good works beforehand, before they believe, for His Children to do, then works are important to their being obedient to God and building up the church for edification of His people as good works are to help others and they are done after they have faith.

An unrepentant unbeliever don't naturally do anything good.
As God testifies saying in Psalm 14
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Written to believers, Paul says to do good to all men, especially those of the house of faith.
But good works don't save anyone, as it says further on in Romans believing justifies people.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth [to be] a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, [I say], of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

29 Or is God [the God] of Jews only? is he not [the God] of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

 

[EmSw]

An unrepentant unbeliever don't naturally do anything good.
As God testifies saying in Psalm 14
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

You left out verse one.

The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is speaking of the fools who have said in their hearts, there is no God. They have become corrupt; none of them do good.