Romans 9, neither Calvinist nor Arminian

Jan001

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I suggest you are misinterpreting the "what if" here. You read it a statement of what God might have done, but did not do.

Besides, note how the NASB renders this text:

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles

If the NASB is correct here, your interpretation fails since clearly the "what if" must have actually happened precisely because this "made known" God's riches to the vessels of mercy. In any event, I think you are not reading the sentence properly - the "what if" covers both the "vessels of destruction" and the "vessels of mercy".


Let's look at Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament translation from the Greek:

Romans 9:20-24
But who are you, a mere mortal, to criticize God? Certainly the thing that is molded may not say to the one who molded it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay some pottery for a special occasion and other for common use? 22 What if God, willing to display his wrath and make known his power, has endured with great patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And what if he did so in order to make known the riches of his glory to the objects of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles.​

Some Jewish converts thought that only the Jews should be able to inherit eternal life through Jesus Christ. Paul is telling them that they are mistaken.

God has chosen to grant the believing Gentiles mercy in addition to granting mercy to the believing Jews. Paul is teaching the convert Roman Jews this fact in a long, drawn-out Semitic manner of speaking.

Paul is teaching these Jewish converts that God's ways are not they think God's ways should be and that His thoughts are not what they think God's thoughts should be. Paul is telling them that they should not question God's granting of His mercy to the Gentiles and that they should also not question His reasons for granting His mercy to the Gentiles.

But forget all that - it's clear that God has hardened Israel!:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

And, again, there is the stuff about God sending Israel a stupor. Your position on all this requires that you claim that such statements mean something other than what they say on a literal reading. I do not deny this possibility, but you need to provide independent evidence to support such a dramatically non-literal reading. ........

Back to the 'what if': This is a perfectly legitimate form of speech to characterize something that actually happened. Example: Imagine a mother tells a child this: "What if your father is coming home early and will see your room is a mess". Does this mean the father is not coming home early? Maybe, maybe not.

Isaiah 55:6-9
“Seek the Lord while he may be found,
call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon
.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord
.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. rsv​

Bottom Line:
The Jewish converts are questioning why God is permitting the Gentiles to be saved. Paul is telling them that God has His own reasons for saving the Gentiles and that the Jewish converts shouldn't be spending their time fruitlessly questioning God's thoughts, motives, and actions.


We will agree to disagree. :)
 
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Jan001

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But the text in Romans 9 strongly suggests - if not outright declares - that the potter in this use of the metaphor has indeed actively molded the pot to a bad destiny:

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Who has done the preparation, if not God? But forget about this text if you like; there are at least two other direct statements of God actively "causing" Israel to go down the wrong path:

31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,


Do you deny what this text plainly says - that God has intentionally given Israel a stumbling stone?

Or this from chapter 11:

8just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,


In context, it is Jews that are given this stupor. And who gave it to them?

Answer: God.

We need to take Paul at his word even if this forces us to revise our theology.

Because God knew before the foundation of the world that some Jews would reject Jesus, God instructed His prophets to prophecy this very fact hundreds of years before it came to pass. God permitted the Jews to disobey. He did not prevent them from repenting. He did not force them to disobey. This is a very confusing Semitic manner of speaking for some people and therefore these people do not understand what Paul is actually teaching. Paul also states that some Gentiles hardened their hearts against God. In other words, God gave them free will. He permitted them to choose for themselves.

Ephesians 4:18
they are darkened in their understanding
, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart; rsv

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he [Paul] does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. rsv
Since you believe that God personally hardens the hearts of some people, how do you explain the following statement of Peter?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved
.’ rsv​

Scripture does not state, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, except for Pharaoh and some Jews/Israelites and some Gentiles."

Pharaoh and the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles could have repented anytime they wanted to; they chose not to.
 
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sdowney717

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Because God knew before the foundation of the world that some Jews would reject Jesus, God instructed His prophets to prophecy this very fact hundreds of years before it came to pass. God permitted the Jews to disobey. He did not prevent them from repenting. He did not force them to disobey. This is a very confusing Semitic manner of speaking for some people and therefore these people do not understand what Paul is actually teaching. Paul also states that some Gentiles hardened their hearts against God. In other words, God gave them free will. He permitted them to choose for themselves.

Ephesians 4:18
they are darkened in their understanding
, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart; rsv

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he [Paul] does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. rsv
Since you believe that God personally hardens the hearts of some people, how do you explain the following statement of Peter?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved
.’ rsv​

Scripture does not state, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, except for Pharaoh and some Jews/Israelites and some Gentiles."

Pharaoh and the unbelieving Jews and Gentiles could have repented anytime they wanted to; they chose not to.

You are adding in and on to the scripture in your own words what was not written down.
John 12, for example is clearly saying the God has hardened their hearts. And the reason is lest they turn in repentance.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,

Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

God's plan all along is to call some to be glorified and others to be left unglorified.
God demonstrates His mercy and His justice according what you call arbitrary and unfair judicial justice.
Our salvation does not depend on our figuring things out, God has actively denied this to fallen mankind.
Your advocation is Pelagianism and works and not grace and mercy.

 
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Jan001

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God's plan all along is to call some to be glorified and others to be left unglorified.
God demonstrates His mercy and His justice according what you call arbitrary and unfair judicial justice.
Our salvation does not depend on our figuring things out, God has actively denied this to fallen mankind.
Your advocation is Pelagianism and works and not grace and mercy.

God's desire and plan all along was to provide a means for all mankind to be saved.


Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” nkjv
If Pharaoh had repented and called on the name of the Lord, would he have been saved? Scripture supports that if Pharaoh had done these, he would indeed have been saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-7
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. nkjv
Did Jesus die so that everyone, even Pharaoh, could be saved? Pharaoh is indeed one of the "all men" that Jesus desired to save.

Is the Scripture true when it states that Jesus gave His life as a ransom for all people, which includes Pharaoh, so that they can all be saved or did Jesus purposely not die as a ransom for Pharaoh and for others? The fact is that Jesus died for all people including Pharaoh.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is
not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. nkjv
Is the Lord willing that any people such as Pharaoh should perish/lose eternal life or is the Lord longsuffering toward all people and not willing that any should perish, including Pharaoh; very much desiring that he and all other sinners come to repentance? The latter is true.

I think that you are not differentiating between the different styles of writing in the Bible and so you are not understanding what the author of Romans wants you to understand.

We will agree to disagree. :wave:
 
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