Romans 9, neither Calvinist nor Arminian

[expos4ever]

But good works don't save anyone, as it says further on in Romans believing justifies people.

Here is the challenging thing. Paul writes the following words that clear say that salvation is indeed based on good works:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What do you think Paul is telling us here? Please do not evade this questions as at least some other posters do. I will often get answers like "that's impossible - good works do not save".

Surely you can understand why this is a non-answer.

Any legitimate position must find a way to explain these particular verses if, in fact the words are not to be taken at face value, that is, that good works do indeed save.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

OK, HUGE translation issue here:

Here is how the Young's Literal Version renders this verse:

and the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

Huge difference, yes?

For a range of reasons I do not want to get into (will make the post too long), I will assert the following:

In this particular verse, Paul is not saying we are made righteous through faith, he is saying that through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, we are made righteous.

In what sense has Jesus been faithful? He has been faithful in the sense that He has taken Israel's covenant obligations on Himself and has, unlike Israel itself, faithfully fulfilled them.

 

[expos4ever]

And yet we are told in Scripture that there is no one who does good (not even one),

That text certainly does not apply to believers. There are many many texts that show that believers can do good works.

 

[expos4ever]

27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
29 Or is God [the God] of Jews only? is he not [the God] of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

This text supports the argument I am making.

Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

What are these works of the Law that cannot justify? “Good works” in general, or the practices or “works” of the Law of Moses?

Paul is addressing the Law of Moses here, not “good works”. The “boast” (verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is the boast of the Jew who thinks that being part of the ethnic group who do Law of Moses will justify him.

This is borne out by verse 29 which makes no sense if "good works" or "or obedience to a general law" is in view in verse 28, but which makes perfect sense if the works are those of the Law of Moses:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28, focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works” do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Law of Moses since it is by doing the works of Law of Moses that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Law of Moses, of course. Not good works.

And now for something very important. I am not saying that we are not saved by faith. I am saying the following:

1. Paul never denies that good works are not necessary as evidence of saving faith, and he affirms this very thing in Romans 2:6-7.

2. Paul sees the Law of Moses as a badge of Jewish ethnicity. So when he says "works of the law" do not save, he is really saying salvation is not a "Jewish-only" thing.

 

[expos4ever]

You clearly have not read Romans 5.

The problem is the concept of "accountability". If by accountability, you mean that we are morally culpable for Adam's sin, I suggest that this is something you read into the text, although I concede this easy to do. If, on the other hand, you are saying that we are all destined for loss as a result of Adam's sin, I would agree with you. You may not see a distinction here, but I believe it is an important one.

 

[expos4ever]

As I see it, Paul's parallel of Adam and Christ in Romans chapter 5 stands or falls on imputation. If Adam's guilt is not imputed to us who did not commit his sin, Christ's righteousness can also not be imputed to us who did not have his righteousness. This is such a glorious passage.

I do not believe there is a Biblical case for the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to the believer. Yes, we are "imputed" righteousness, but it is not Jesus's righteousness; it is instead the basic righteousness of the acquitted defendant.

Let's be clear about something: it is indeed conceptually coherent to assert that one be ascribed a status of "righteousness" without that status having to be the righteous state of some other person.

This happens everyday when people are acquitted in lawcourts all over the world - they walk out judged to be "righteous" but not in any sense having been given somebody else's righteous state.

 

[sdowney717]

Here is the challenging thing. Paul writes the following words that clear say that salvation is indeed based on good works:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What do you think Paul is telling us here? Please do not evade this questions as at least some other posters do. I will often get answers like "that's impossible - good works do not save".

Surely you can understand why this is a non-answer.

Any legitimate position must find a way to explain these particular verses if, in fact the words are not to be taken at face value, that is, that good works do indeed save.

I already said something about that verse in another thread.
Regarding what good works in particular to be saved?

Name them please so that people can know if they do them they will be saved.
And how many does it take?
Do you balance good ones against bad ones and whatever side comes out on top wins?

 

[sdowney717]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Just a real nice in your face verse that tells us we are righteous to God because of His grace and nothing works involved in making us righteous. This is for anyone who believes without distinction. And is free, it cost us nothing but cost Christ His life, His blood propitiated the believers sins.

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Since God then has justified us by faith, why listen to a bible teacher person that says we must do good to be justified?
This is what the text says, does it not? justified by grace and faith?
The work of justification Christ wrought on the cross with His blood is sufficient for the sinner, so if you add your own efforts to that, your telling Christ His effort was insufficient, which I do not think He will appreciate very much.
If you think additional works are required, you adding to what God is teaching us in Romans 3.

Maybe people should reconsider. Admit they do not understand what to them is a contrary scripture.
See if you find a conflict, it is not in scripture, the conflict is in your understanding the scripture, not in what God's word says.

 

[expos4ever]

I already said something about that verse in another thread.
Regarding what good works in particular to be saved?

Name them please so that people can know if they do them they will be saved.
And how many does it take?
Do you balance good ones against bad ones and whatever side comes out on top wins?

You are not answering my question. Please answer the question and then I will respond to these questions of yours.

If you actually answered this question in another thread, please refer me to the thread and post number.

 

[expos4ever]

Since God then has justified us by faith, why listen to a bible teacher person that says we must do good to be justified?

Because the "Bible teacher" who tells us this is named Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Do you not believe this statement by Paul?

I do. And I believe that we are also saved by faith. How do I reconcile all this? As follows: the "good works" are the evidence that the faith is real.

 

[sdowney717]

You are not answering my question. Please answer the question and then I will respond to these questions of yours.

If you actually answered this question in another thread, please refer me to the thread and post number.

Lets go through some verses to attempt to lay an understanding first for that passage in Romans 2.
It is true that we must bear good fruit to God as John said or we will be thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

There is an election demonstrated in Matt3, the wheat vs the chafe, and the trees which do not bear good fruit vs the ones that do..
Obviously, the ones Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit are the wheat and trees which bear the good fruits and will be gathered into His house. And the ones who He does not baptize bear the bad fruit and are going to the eternal fire.

Christ makes the tree being the creator, He has made the tree either good or bad by nature. All persons prior to being born again bear bad fruit, they are running with the devil and all persons born again will bear good fruit since they are possessing the Holy Spirit and are following Christ.

Who makes the tree? Recall after being born again, we are His workmanship, so have been made good, renewed, regenerated, a new creation, to do good works..
Matthew 13
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Please note, Jesus says a GOOD tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a BAD tree cannot bear good fruit. Each type of tree is distinct and represents the saved versus the unsaved. The distinction is placed upon them by the seal of the Holy Spirit. The good trees are the ones regenerated, born again, made alive to do good works. The bad ones remain in their fallen state and are doing bad works.


John 15
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

So in john 15, we see Christ has chosen and appointed some to bear fruit that remains, meaning they are the good tree. Obviously His apostles are good trees, so the fruit here must be good fruit.

So then going into Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Here again we have the bad tree doing bad works, and the good tree doing good works. Each tree is doing what comes by them naturally to do as they have been made by Christ to be. As Christ tells us and He is the creator and we are His workmanship.

Matthew 13
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

So Christ makes the tree good or bad and people are the trees. Those which are bad trees display their naturally created fallen condition, and those who are the good trees show the Hand of the Lord upon them fashioning them for the noble purposes of God.

 

[expos4ever]

You believe that God can act against His own nature. He cannot. God cannot and does not force people to disobey His commandments so that He can then punish them for disobeying Him.

I really want to believe what you believe, but I simply cannot reconcile it with scripture. You have argued that statements like "God hardened Pharaoh" are really a literary device - a way of speaking that is a kind of shorthand for "God knew that Pharaoh would reject Him, so He (God) "used" that rejection to further His (God's) purposes". Well, that seems odd, but I have an open mind. You have indeed presented examples of Biblical phrases that clearly do not mean what they say on a literal reading (e.g. Jesus' admonition to hate father and mother). But none of these are quite the same kind of thing - they involve overstatement, not a change in agency.

In any event, I think the potter metaphor itself really does put your position on shaky footing. Consider this passage from the Old Testament:

5Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.

It really does stretch credulity to imagine that someone would use the very distinctive image of God, as a potter, fashioning a set of people, represented as pots, to denote a relationship in which God actually has no active role in shaping the people.

This is really asking too much - one cannot come with a metaphor that places more emphasis on the active role of God as the potter metaphor. Clay is lifeless and inert - the work of fashioning the pot is entirely that of the potter. So as much as I sympathize with the spirit of your position, I do not see how it can work Biblically.

 

[Jan001]

Please do not attempt to divert the reader from the fact that you have a case to make: that the Bible does not allow for the possibility that God hardens people who have already rejected Him.

I am extremely skeptical that you will be able to make the case you need to make to defend your position.

Please answer the following for me:

What do you think free will is?

Which one of the following statements do you believe is true?

1. God gives each person the gift of free will for his entire life.

2. God gives each person the gift of free will for only a part of his entire life.

3. God gives some people the gift of free will for their entire lives, but He gives other people the gift of free will for only a part of their lives.

Thank you!

 

[expos4ever]

Please answer the following for me:

What do you think free will is?

Which one of the following statements do you believe is true?

1. God gives each person the gift of free will for his entire life.

2. God gives each person the gift of free will for only a part of his entire life.

3. God gives some people the gift of free will for their entire lives, but He gives other people the gift of free will for only a part of their lives.

Thank you!

To save time, please understand that I will not attempt to articulate a definition of free will as I suspect we both agree on what free will is and that we do indeed have free will. As to your three questions, they are not "fair" in the sense that they omit the possibility that I would offer as an answer.

And it is this: Under certain circumstances and for very particular good reasons, God will indeed constrain (limit) the free will of some people. However, I only believe this happens when a person has already shown that they have freely chosen a path of disobedience.

 

[Jan001]

In any event, I think the potter metaphor itself really does put your position on shaky footing. Consider this passage from the Old Testament:

5Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.

It really does stretch credulity to imagine that someone would use the very distinctive image of God, as a potter, fashioning a set of people, represented as pots, to denote a relationship in which God actually has no active role in shaping the people.

This is really asking too much - one cannot come with a metaphor that places more emphasis on the active role of God as the potter metaphor. Clay is lifeless and inert - the work of fashioning the pot is entirely that of the potter. So as much as I sympathize with the spirit of your position, I do not see how it can work Biblically.

5Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
​

Yes, God can deal with Israel as the potter does with his clay. But, does God actually deal with Israel as the potter does? No, He does not.

Romans 9:20-24
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? nkjv
​

God certainly did have the power over all the "clay" of mankind. And He can show His wrath against them at any time He desires. But God didn't actually want to show His wrath toward any of mankind. Instead of wrath, He wanted to show His mercy to all - Jew and Gentile, so that each of these Jews and Gentiles could repent and be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. nkjv​

God is longsuffering. He is merciful. He desires that all people come to repentance and be saved.

God desired for all people to come to repentance and salvation and so He sent His own Son to die for them, to forgive their sins, to make it possible for them to spend eternity with Him.

1 Timothy 2:3-7
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. nkjv​

People fall away from the faith and forfeit eternal life because of their own sins.

2 Timothy 2:19-21
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. nkjv
​

The sinner [vessel of dishonor] may become righteous [a vessel of honor] by repenting of his sins. When he repents of his sins, the blood of Jesus Christ then makes him clean - free of sin. When cleansed by God, he becomes sanctified and therefore useful for God because he is now prepared spiritually to do the good works that God had prepared for him to do.

Vessels of dishonor do not have to remain as vessels of dishonor.

 

[EmSw]

I really want to believe what you believe, but I simply cannot reconcile it with scripture. You have argued that statements like "God hardened Pharaoh" are really a literary device - a way of speaking that is a kind of shorthand for "God knew that Pharaoh would reject Him, so He (God) "used" that rejection to further His (God's) purposes". Well, that seems odd, but I have an open mind. You have indeed presented examples of Biblical phrases that clearly do not mean what they say on a literal reading (e.g. Jesus' admonition to hate father and mother). But none of these are quite the same kind of thing - they involve overstatement, not a change in agency.

In any event, I think the potter metaphor itself really does put your position on shaky footing. Consider this passage from the Old Testament:

5Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.

It really does stretch credulity to imagine that someone would use the very distinctive image of God, as a potter, fashioning a set of people, represented as pots, to denote a relationship in which God actually has no active role in shaping the people.

This is really asking too much - one cannot come with a metaphor that places more emphasis on the active role of God as the potter metaphor. Clay is lifeless and inert - the work of fashioning the pot is entirely that of the potter. So as much as I sympathize with the spirit of your position, I do not see how it can work Biblically.

One needs to read through verse 10, and not verse 5 alone.

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

What the potter does to the clay is solely dependent upon the clay's role with evil. If it 'turns from its evil', God will relent from disaster. If the clay does evil in His sight and does not obey His voice, then God will relent of the good which He said He would benefit it.

Jan001 gave 2 Timothy 2:21, which speaks of the same thing.

Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Since being prepared for every good work is dependent upon a man cleansing himself, it is easy to see why so many have a disdain for good works in their lives. If men do not cleanse themselves, they will not be sanctified and useful as a vessel of honor for the Master. Ezekiel also tells man to cast away all transgressions in order to make himself a new heart. If man does not do these things, the evil in his heart will keep him a vessel of dishonor, and God will relent of the good He which He said He would benefit it, and bring disaster upon him.

 

[expos4ever]

What the potter does to the clay is solely dependent upon the clay's role with evil. If it 'turns from its evil', God will relent from disaster. If the clay does evil in His sight and does not obey His voice, then God will relent of the good which He said He would benefit it.

I agree that in this particular use of the potter metaphor (from Jeremiah) there is no sense the potter "causes" the clay to do something "bad".

But the text in Romans 9 strongly suggests - if not outright declares - that the potter in this use of the metaphor has indeed actively molded the pot to a bad destiny:

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Who has done the preparation, if not God? But forget about this text if you like; there are at least two other direct statements of God actively "causing" Israel to go down the wrong path:

31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,

Do you deny what this text plainly says - that God has intentionally given Israel a stumbling stone?

Or this from chapter 11:

8just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,

In context, it is Jews that are given this stupor. And who gave it to them?

Answer: God.

We need to take Paul at his word even if this forces us to revise our theology.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 9:20-24
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? nkjv
​

God certainly did have the power over all the "clay" of mankind. And He can show His wrath against them at any time He desires. But God didn't actually want to show His wrath toward any of mankind. Instead of wrath, He wanted to show His mercy to all - Jew and Gentile, so that each of these Jews and Gentiles could repent and be saved.

I suggest you are misinterpreting the "what if" here. You read it a statement of what God might have done, but did not do.

Besides, note how the NASB renders this text:

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles

If the NASB is correct here, your interpretation fails since clearly the "what if" must have actually happened precisely because this "made known" God's riches to the vessels of mercy. In any event, I think you are not reading the sentence properly - the "what if" covers both the "vessels of destruction" and the "vessels of mercy".

But forget all that - it's clear that God has hardened Israel!:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in

And, again, there is the stuff about God sending Israel a stupor. Your position on all this requires that you claim that such statements mean something other than what they say on a literal reading. I do not deny this possibility, but you need to provide independent evidence to support such a dramatically non-literal reading. And while you have indeed provided example of things not to be taken literally, they have been of the wrong "type" to be useful here. Yes Jesus exaggerates when He tells us to hate our parents, but the issue here is which agent is responsible, a different kind of beast.

Back to the 'what if': This is a perfectly legitimate form of speech to characterize something that actually happened. Example: Imagine a mother tells a child this: "What if your father is coming home early and will see your room is a mess". Does this mean the father is not coming home early?

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[EmSw]

I agree that in this particular use of the potter metaphor (from Jeremiah) there is no sense the potter "causes" the clay to do something "bad".

But the text in Romans 9 strongly suggests - if not outright declares - that the potter in this use of the metaphor has indeed actively molded the pot to a bad destiny:

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Who has done the preparation, if not God? But forget about this text if you like; there are at least two other direct statements of God actively "causing" Israel to go down the wrong path:

31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,

Do you deny what this text plainly says - that God has intentionally given Israel a stumbling stone?

Or this from chapter 11:

8just as it is written,
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,

In context, it is Jews that are given this stupor. And who gave it to them?

Answer: God.

We need to take Paul at his word even if this forces us to revise our theology.

Perhaps you didn't read through verse 10 of Jeremiah.

 

[Jan001]

To save time, please understand that I will not attempt to articulate a definition of free will as I suspect we both agree on what free will is and that we do indeed have free will. As to your three questions, they are not "fair" in the sense that they omit the possibility that I would offer as an answer.

And it is this: Under certain circumstances and for very particular good reasons, God will indeed constrain (limit) the free will of some people. However, I only believe this happens when a person has already shown that they have freely chosen a path of disobedience.

Pharaoh either had free will from his birth until his death or else he never had it.

Pharaoh is no different from any other sinner except God gave him power over a great number of people in order for him to either choose to help them or to hurt them. God punished Pharaoh and even Pharaoh's people because of Pharaoh's disobedience. Pharaoh's extreme punishments from God showed everyone that God is God and that He should not be disobeyed.

Free will means that a person is free to choose his own actions without coercion from anyone else, including God.

God personally hardens no person against Himself. God does permit a person to harden himself against Him. The Israelites understood that God's permissive will was not the same as His ordained will.

But, thousands of years later, some people who read the Israelites' literature do not understand that when the Israelites wrote that God hardened a person's heart, what was meant was that God permitted the person to continue to choose sinfulness.

Pharaoh could have freely chosen to repent of his sins, but he did not. Perhaps Pharaoh thought he was greater than God. Some Pharaohs did expect their people to worship them as divine beings.

Scripture states that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart," but what this means is "God permitted Pharaoh to continue to sin." God NEVER forces a person to sin against Him.

We will agree to disagree.