Rebellious Women

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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Wonder why it is that I have NEVER seen this argument including v.21, which is part of the same admonition ... ? ;)

"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Followed by gender-specific calls for submission.

If marriage works the way it is supposed to, with BOTH parties dong their part, this discussion wouldn't even come up.

You're correct, and there are some men not doing what they are supposed to be doing, but it seems obvious to me that modern women are far more rebellious to God's commands toward their spouse.

It's not too many happily married, secure, women who would rebel against a husband who was sacrificing himself for her as Christ did for us. But these kinds of diatribes are actually counterproductive, IMO, and demonstrate a warped view of submission. It's not meant to install the husband as a dictator.

I hear this all the time. Personally, I don't feel that most women would submit to any man's authority, as most are of a reprobate mind. Therefore, they put unrealistic expectations on a man, claiming that "if this man loved me the way Christ loved the church", I'd submit. It doesn't work that way. A woman is to submit to her husband in all things. She is to obey him. God's word says so much. Modern women, even many, perhaps a majority that attend church, claim that they'd never submit, or they claim they'd submit if he is worth submitting to. God tells you frankly to submit. The man doesn't have to pat your ego and be all lovey-dovey dough-eyed with you to show you that he loves you, or for you to support him. Most men do such if they are respected. Women who don't respect their husbands by following his lead have unhappy husbands who have lessened affection for their spouse. If women would submit, many men would be more likely to feel and show them love. Yes, a man should love his wife through it all. Yet, it isn't men who have subjugated the social order and are now acting like the other gender. It is women. Therefore, I feel women share more of the blame for the current state of affairs.

After all, God desires that all men submit freely to Him in love, but He does not usurp our free will in the process.

Women and men have freewill in their relationships, but that doesn't make their actions godly. Similarly, mankind has freewill to not follow Christ, but that doesn't make it the right decision.

Yes, there is a feminist agenda out there, along with all kinds of other misguided agendas. But painting all women with that brush, especially when you have no position of authority over them, well ... doesn't seem either helpful or fair.

Every Christian has the authority to call out sin. Women are not immune from being called out.

Neither Christian households nor gatherings of believers ought to be motivated by power struggles. We should all serve one another, give place and honor to others who are, after all, made in the image of God, and prefer others before ourselves.

When wives fail to submit they are involved in a power struggle for control of the relationship, showing their rebellion for God's command.
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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OP. What do you suppose should be done when a MAN refuses to do HIS part? In other words, if a man is choosing not to work and not to manage the household what should be done?

Just like you can't force a rebellious woman to change, you can't force a rebellious husband to change. Women manage the household. Men provide and defend.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Just like you can't force a rebellious woman to change, you can't force a rebellious husband to change. Women manage the household. Men provide and defend.
so does that mean that if a man cannot or will not provide and defend that the family should just die?
 
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Rescued One

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Deuteronomy 22:5

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I don't wear men's underwear or jock straps. Do you dress like Jesus did? If you don't you have no room to talk.



 
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amariselle

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Followed by gender-specific calls for submission.

You're correct, and there are some men not doing what they are supposed to be doing, but it seems obvious to me that modern women are far more rebellious to God's commands toward their spouse.
Really? I think it goes both ways.
I hear this all the time. Personally, I don't feel that most women would submit to any man's authority, as most are of a reprobate mind. Therefore, they put unrealistic expectations on a man, claiming that "if this man loved me the way Christ loved the church", I'd submit. It doesn't work that way. A woman is to submit to her husband in all things. She is to obey him. God's word says so much. Modern women, even many, perhaps a majority that attend church, claim that they'd never submit, or they claim they'd submit if he is worth submitting to. God tells you frankly to submit. The man doesn't have to pat your ego and be all lovey-dovey dough-eyed with you to show you that he loves you, or for you to support him. Most men do such if they are respected. Women who don't respect their husbands by following his lead have unhappy husbands who have lessened affection for their spouse. If women would submit, many men would be more likely to feel and show them love. Yes, a man should love his wife through it all. Yet, it isn't men who have subjugated the social order and are now acting like the other gender. It is women. Therefore, I feel women share more of the blame for the current state of affairs.

There is just something about how that is worded that is condescending. You are saying women should act a certain way to receive affection from their husbands. If a man is fully submitted to Christ, do you think he would have that attitude? Did Christ wait for us to deserve the sacrifice HE made? Loving your wife means loving her as Christ loved us, which is not demanding and prideful.

Women and men have freewill in their relationships, but that doesn't make their actions godly. Similarly, mankind has freewill to not follow Christ, but that doesn't make it the right decision.

Sure, I don't think anyone said otherwise.

Every Christian has the authority to call out sin. Women are not immune from being called out.

Again, you do not have the authority to call out another man's wife or to step into his marriage. Not unless godly counsel is being sought from you. (And hopefully you would offer compassionate and considerate advice, and pray for the wisdom to say the right things). You have absolutely no idea what goes on in someone else's marriage or family, and another man's wife is not obligated to submit to you and your choice to "call her out."

When wives fail to submit they are involved in a power struggle for control of the relationship, showing their rebellion for God's command.

And when husbands fail to submit to Christ they disrespect and dishonour their wives (and God). It's a two way street. And the woman should not receive ALL the blame.
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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can I ask where God demands our children not be placed in day care?
Since we are being so specific down to every syllable according to your ideas of what the Bible states, please tell me where women are strictly forbidden to place their children in day care.

There is no forbidding of placing children in daycare, per se, but there is a command for a woman to keep the home. With young children, there is little ability for a woman to clean the house properly, fold and hang-up laundry, cook meals for the family, etc. and still work a job. Not feasible for most people. The home would be neglected in most cases. Therefore, women who are choosing to work and place their kids in daycare are not only often neglecting their homes but also their children who need the nurturing relationship of a mother, especially in the formative years.

And if you will, please explain to me where it says women should only wear a dress or skirt? Since jeans are specifically tailored to fit women and are even designed to flatter and fit the female form, they are technically womens clothes. So please tell me why women are only allowed to wear dresses and skirts and no other clothes made for women. And please make sure it specifically states dresses and skirts and not just "women dress like women" as we know pants are also made for women.

If you don't like the truth, it is what it is. Jeans and PANTS were specifically made for MEN. For thousands of years men have worn pants, women have not. Have you ever heard the phrase, "She thinks she wears the pants in the relationship". This specifically is used to point out a woman who is behaving like a man, with the metaphor of pants to control of the relationship. Plus, women never wore pants until the 1960s, for the most part.

Jeans and pants ARE men's clothing styles. Dresses and skirts are women's clothing styles. Today, a random sample of women that I see are a bunch of people wanting to dress like a man. I'd say that 90% are choosing to dress in styles that are related to traditional male dress.

A little flare, a little accent, a little slightly different cut doesn't make the clothes really feminine. It's like putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a woman.


And while answering this, tell me how you are able to say that no man can be perfect for a woman because they all fall short, but women must be perfect or they will go to the lake of fire? Where does God specify this double standard?

He doesn't.

No man or woman can be perfect, for we all sin. That said, when you sin, you are to repent of the sin. Women who constantly are denying what God has called them out to do are not in a state of repentance.

You sure remind me of the Pharisees in the Bible, more concerned about tradition over Gods will.

I think it's time you read the Bible a little more.
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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so does that mean that if a man cannot or will not provide and defend that the family should just die?

Look, if a man is not doing his job and work, then I don't think that God's going to want the family to starve. In most cases, I'd hope that people would help such a family.
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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I don't wear men's underwear or jock straps. Do you dress like Jesus did? If you don't you have no room to talk.

There are men's styles and women's styles. What I wear is completely male clothes. If you're not wearing female clothes, don't get mad at me for following God's command with regard to clothing.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What seems to be missing here is the whole symbiosis angle. People become the man or woman they are because of how the relationship affects them. Theology is too individualistic these days.
 
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dogs4thewin

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There is no forbidding of placing children in daycare, per se, but there is a command for a woman to keep the home. With young children, there is little ability for a woman to clean the house properly, fold and hang-up laundry, cook meals for the family, etc. and still work a job. Not feasible for most people. The home would be neglected in most cases. Therefore, women who are choosing to work and place their kids in daycare are not only often neglecting their homes but also their children who need the nurturing relationship of a mother, especially in the formative years.



If you don't like the truth, it is what it is. Jeans and PANTS were specifically made for MEN. For thousands of years men have worn pants, women have not. Have you ever heard the phrase, "She thinks she wears the pants in the relationship". This specifically is used to point out a woman who is behaving like a man, with the metaphor of pants to control of the relationship. Plus, women never wore pants until the 1960s, for the most part.

Jeans and pants ARE men's clothing styles. Dresses and skirts are women's clothing styles. Today, a random sample of women that I see are a bunch of people wanting to dress like a man. I'd say that 90% are choosing to dress in styles that are related to traditional male dress.

A little flare, a little accent, a little slightly different cut doesn't make the clothes really feminine. It's like putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a woman.




No man or woman can be perfect, for we all sin. That said, when you sin, you are to repent of the sin. Women who constantly are denying what God has called them out to do are not in a state of repentance.



I think it's time you read the Bible a little more.
Look, if a man is not doing his job and work, then I don't think that God's going to want the family to starve. In most cases, I'd hope that people would help such a family.
but God also expects people to help themselves and if a man is not going to step up then someone has to.
 
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Gideons300

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If they are, I haven't heard it. I'm a regular church attender, have been to many conferences and/or praise gatherings, and have watched a good bit of Christian programming on television, I've hardly heart it. However, I'm not going to refute what you claim to have noticed.





Okay, it's not 75%, but it is close. It's 69% of the time.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hy-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/




Which churches might those be? I could see the Amish, or perhaps some small denomination, but for the vast majority of churches, this is not the case.

Do you realize why the whole "log in your own eye first" is mentioned? It's because if you are doing the same thing that others are doing, it makes you a hypocrite. It's also a poor witness. It weakens your testimony and unfortunately many will not listen to your message.

In this case, we are dealing with commands given by God to women, so this can't apply to me, so the "log" comment is not valid.



However, you posted a comment about berating women.




Where might that be?



It is loving as Jesus loved to point out sin. Otherwise, people could die without being made right with God.
I could write the same type of posts for us as husbands. Are we loving our wives as Christ loved the church? Really? Who must be the first to get back in order?

I fear we have not understood the gospel at all. Shall we as men cast the first stone at women for failing to live as we think they ought while our own lives bear NO resemblance to the one we say we love? Good grief, posts like this only confirm my faith that our western Christianity is almost unrecognizable to those in Heaven.

We ALL need to examine our own hearts and see if we have yielded all to our God. Are we walking as living sacrifices? Do most of us even want to? Do we hate our fleshly, shallow, lukewarm walks or are we prideful jusT like the Pharisees, the religious blind leading the blind.

May God forgive us for the aberration we have tried to pass off to the world as real Christianity. The world sees our hypocrisy. We do not. But God is even now awakening us to true holiness, and how to walk it out in real life. Big changes are coming. Wonderful changes. But tears and brokenness will precede what God is about to do with us in these last days.

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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MotherFirefly

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Look, if a man is not doing his job and work, then I don't think that God's going to want the family to starve. In most cases, I'd hope that people would help such a family.

You live in such a fantasy of a world, friend.

You really don't get it. At all. Every post proves that.
 
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dogs4thewin

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There are men's styles and women's styles. What I wear is completely male clothes. If you're not wearing female clothes, don't get mad at me for following God's command with regard to clothing.
Let me asks you this if you feel that old testament law still applies. Do you wear mixed clothes say cotton and some other materical? Do you follow all of the diet laws that they had? Do you maintain facial hair? Have you ever WORKED on Saturday? There are over 600 laws I could asks about.
 
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Paidiske

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Women are told, not so much to "keep the home," but to be good managers of the household.

A good manager does not do everything him or herself. He or she is free to delegate and to draw on the full range of resources. Is a wife whose house is unhygienic and children neglected meeting her responsibilities? No, of course not. But is a wife who works, and employs someone to clean the home and care for the children meeting her responsibilities? I would say yes. The household is being well managed.

It's the outcome that matters, not how she gets it done. And I would say, if she is able to work, contributing to the wider world, being a good witness to Christ in her workplace, employing others in managing her household, then so much the better for her!

(The other point, of course, is that a typical Greco-Roman household was very different in its social make up and its functions than a post-industrial-revolution middle class home. The Greco-Roman household was a multi-generational family home, with grandparents and assorted other relatives to help with childcare. It was also the workplace for the head of the house and various others associated with him in his trade or business. A wife who was a good manager of the household would often have a staff of slaves, social responsibilities, and may well contribute her labour to the family business as well. This is a far cry from the modern nuclear family where, while a husband works, a young wife may well be isolated with a child or several, on her own, without either social interaction with other adults or meaningful work).
 
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GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta

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Really? I think it goes both ways.

Let's see:

More women choose not to submit to their husbands than to submit.
Most men would die for their wife.

More men following God's Command

Large percentage of women working out of the home and not keeping the home.
Most men working a job to provide for the family

More men following God's Command

Most women wearing men's style of clothing
Nearly all men wearing men's style clothing

More men following God's Command.



There is just something about how that is worded that is condescending. You are saying women should act a certain way to receive affection from their husbands. If a man is fully submitted to Christ, do you think he would have that attitude? Did Christ wait for us to deserve the sacrifice HE made? Loving your wife means loving her as Christ loved us, which is not demanding and prideful.

I think a man should love his wife regardless if she doesn't submit to him, or even treats him like dirt, because Christ commands it. My point, however, was to illustrate why some men don't feel love toward their spouse; it's because they are not respected or submitted to.



Again, you do not have the authority to call out another man's wife or to step into his marriage. Not unless godly counsel is being sought from you. (And hopefully you would offer compassionate and considerate advice, and pray for the wisdom to say the right things). You have absolutely no idea what goes on in someone else's marriage or family, and another man's wife is not obligated to submit to you and your choice to "call her out."

If you can't support it from the Bible, then it's a man-made doctrine.



And when husbands fail to submit to Christ they disrespect and dishonour their wives (and God). It's a two way street. And the woman should not receive ALL the blame.

I never claimed that women should receive all the blame, but it is apparent that women are responsible for a majority of problems with the state of marriages.
 
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MotherFirefly

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Let's see:

More women choose not to submit to their husbands than to submit.
Most men would die for their wife.

More men following God's Command

Large percentage of women working out of the home and not keeping the home.
Most men working a job to provide for the family

More men following God's Command

Most women wearing men's style of clothing
Nearly all men wearing men's style clothing

More men following God's Command.





I think a man should love his wife regardless if she doesn't submit to him, or even treats him like dirt, because Christ commands it. My point, however, was to illustrate why some men don't feel love toward their spouse; it's because they are not respected or submitted to.





If you can't support it from the Bible, then it's a man-made doctrine.





I never claimed that women should receive all the blame, but it is apparent that women are responsible for a majority of problems with the state of marriages.

So much... ignorance. :doh:
 
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Starcrystal

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People say they believe in trinity .. but do not apply trinity when it comes to relationships . it is unfortunate.

Scriptural as well...

Ecclesiatses 4:9 - 12

"Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.
For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.
Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken."

Amen
 
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People say they believe in trinity .. but do not apply trinity when it comes to relationships . it is unfortunate.
How do you apply the trinity to human relationships?
 
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