Questions about the concept of original sin

firegunner

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Ezekiel 18-22 seems to refute the concept of original sin and makes it clear that that we only need to repent from sins and does not mention any need of the blood of Jesus to enter heaven

{18:20} The soul thatsinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity ofthe father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Above it says everyone is responsible for his own sin and below it says by repenting and turning away from sins he is forgiven

{18:21} But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

{18:22} All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Can someone throw some more light on this ?

Thanks
 

drich0150

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Ezekiel 18-22 seems to refute the concept of original sin and makes it clear that that we only need to repent from sins and does not mention any need of the blood of Jesus to enter heaven

{18:20} The soul thatsinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity ofthe father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Above it says everyone is responsible for his own sin and below it says by repenting and turning away from sins he is forgiven

{18:21} But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

{18:22} All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Can someone throw some more light on this ?

Thanks

Now carry this understanding to Mat 5:
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[b] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,[c] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[d] 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

After Christ full fill the written aspect of the Law here in this passage, He shows us that no one can truly be sin free in God's economy of righteousness. Therefore a sacrifice needs to be made to atone for sin. (thus completely fulfilling the Law of God.) Because as we are shown here and told, that none are righteous no not one.
 
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hedrick

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I think most Christians acknowledge that Jews before Jesus could be saved by following God as he had been revealed to them. Otherwise the passages you cite (and others like them) make no sense.

The NT also seems to say that Jesus' death is necessary for forgiveness. Thus I'd say the most common view is that the effect of Jesus' death was not limited by time. I.e. that it could affect even people before him. See 1 Pet 1:19-20. Rev 13:8 can be understood in two ways, one being that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.

There are several Christian opinions on the fate of non-Christians. Many Christians think that someone can be saved by Christ's death without realizing it, as long as they follow as much of God as they understand, and thus that Christ's sacrifice can still apply to them. Of course others think that someone has to explicitly "accept Christ."
 
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hedrick

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<staff edit>

When God was talking to Moses he was surely not warning Moses about seeing Jesus as a human being. Many people saw Jesus and didn't die from the experience. He was speaking of seeing God in all his uncreated and holy glory.

I would maintain that one of the points of the Incarnation was so that God could appear in a form that we could see.

But remember that the Bible sees Christ as having existed from before the creation. He just hadn't appeared visibly as a human yet.

Paul's explanation for the atonement is that we are spiritually united with Christ, and through that union die to sin and are raised to new life. Paul certainly believed that people didn't have to be present at Jesus' death in 30 AD to do this. He believed that spiritual union with Christ was available to everyone. I see no reason why it should be available after his death and not before his death. But this is a spiritual union, not seeing Jesus physically. The only way you could see him physically is if you were in Palestine in the early 1st Cent.

<staff edit>
 
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hedrick

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<staff edit>

Heb 1:2. (No, Hebrews is not by Paul.) John 1:1. (If you want Jesus' own words, John 6:50-51.) In the Synoptics' Jesus role is more veiled, to the point where his disciples often don't recognize it. However the "I have come" sayings appear to indicate a preexistent Christ who has come to earth.

Of course the problem with rejecting Paul is that he is our earliest source of information on Jesus.
 
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hedrick

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God punished Adam and Eve and ejected them from Eden. Whether you call that a curse or not is up to you. Whether you call it a curse doesn't seem critical to original sin. Original sin says that as a result of Adam's sin we are all sinners as well, and subject to punishment.

There are two versions of original sin.

(1) We inherit from Adam guilt for his sin.
(2) We inherit from Adam a fallen human nature, and as a result we sin.

My reading of Paul is that he definitely supports that second version, but not so clearly the first. Interestingly, it appears that Calvin (who probably doesn't matter to Rangerainy, but is important to many Protestants) took the second version as well.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ezekiel 18-22 seems to refute the concept of original sin and makes it clear that that we only need to repent from sins and does not mention any need of the blood of Jesus to enter heaven

{18:20} The soul thatsinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity ofthe father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Above it says everyone is responsible for his own sin and below it says by repenting and turning away from sins he is forgiven

{18:21} But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

{18:22} All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Can someone throw some more light on this ?

Thanks

Original Sin, a theological position unique to the Western Theological Tradition (Catholicism and Protestantism) does not posit that we are punished for Adam's sin. But rather that we inherit Adam's sinfulness. We are not judged because of what Adam did, we are judged because of what we do and what we do originates from Adam's disobedience. We inherit Adam's concupiscence, the lusts of the flesh that draw us toward selfish, greedy and prideful activity.

Again, however, this is unique to the Western Tradition, Eastern Christians don't talk about Original Sin. Eastern Orthodox theologians talk about "Ancestral Sin" which is markedly different in scope and meaning.

Ancestral Sin in Orthodox theology means that Adam's sinful activity has damaged creation. Adam sold his birth right, so to speak, and we became enslaved by the devil who wields power over us with death. In other words the Fall means that each of us are born into an environment where sinning is inevitable, rather than that each of us has inherited a sinful nature.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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hedrick

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<staff edit-quote removed>

My understanding is that physical death was part of God's plan all along, and that that isn't the punishment. God threatens Adam and Eve with death if they eat of the tree. However physical death can't have been the punishment for Adam's sin, since they didn't in fact die immediately.

Here's John Calvin's comment on Gen 2:17. Note that Calvin assumes that without Adam's sin we still would die, but it would be a simple passing into eternal life, and would not have the mental and spiritual problems that make death now so difficult for us. (I quote Calvin to show that this is not a modernist understanding of Adam's sin.)


But it is asked, what kind of death God means in this place? It appears to me, that the definition of this death is to be sought from its opposite; we must, I say, remember from what kind of life man fell. He was, in every respect, happy; his life, therefore, had alike respect to his body and his soul, since in his soul a right judgment and a proper government of the affections prevailed, there also life reigned; in his body there was no defect, wherefore he was wholly free from death. His earthly life truly would have been temporal; yet he would have passed into heaven without death, and without injury. Death, therefore, is now a terror to us; first, because there is a kind of annihilation, as it respects the body; then, because the soul feels the curse of God. We must also see what is the cause of death, namely, alienation from God. Thence it follows, that under the name of death is comprehended all those miseries in which Adam involved himself by his defection; for as soon as he revolted from God, the fountain of life, he was cast down from his former state, in order that he might perceive the life of man without God to be wretched and lost, and therefore differing nothing from death. Hence the condition of man after his sin is not improperly called both the privation of life, and death. The miseries and evils both of soul and body, with which man is beset so long as he is on earth, are a kind of entrance into death, till death itself entirely absorbs him; for the Scripture everywhere calls those dead, who, being oppressed by the tyranny of sin and Satan, breathe nothing but their own destruction. Wherefore the question is superfluous, how it was that God threatened death to Adam on the day in which he should touch the fruit, when he long deferred the punishment? For then was Adam consigned to death, and death began its reign in him, until supervening grace should bring a remedy.

My understanding is that in the Garden, without sin, everyone would have died, but they would have lived to an old age and moved peacefully into the next world.

The Christian (and I think Jewish as well) view has been that sin isn't just a personal matter, but it deranges the whole world. Humankind was intended to be the gardener. When we are incapable of carrying out our function, all kinds of things go wrong. So sin has effects beyond a direct effect on the one who sins. It affects the victim, and more broadly the whole world and everyone in it.

I believe the standard view is that infants die because they are living in a world that has been corrupted.

Please note that I am only dealing with physical death in this response <staff edit>. I am not dealing with guilt, spiritual death, or God's judgement.

-----

A note on ViaCrucis: I'm not sure we need to choose between individuals as corrupted and the world as corrupted. Paul's comments can reasonably be taken either way, and I think it makes sense to think of the fall as involving both individuals and the world as a whole.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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This is a post I made on Original Sin/Original Guilt that may be helpful - this is strictly a historical look at the doctrine.


Here's how I (and all of historical Christianity up until roughly the time of Augustine) defines original sin:

1. Adam sins.
2. Through that, death comes into the world infecting every person.
3. We are thus born with a nature that is prone to sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina...n_Christianity
from the article:

"The Orthodox Church in America makes clear the distinction between "fallen nature" and "fallen man" and this is affirmed in the early teaching of the Church whose role it is to act as the catalyst that leads to true or inner redemption. Every human person born on this earth bears the image of God undistorted within themselves.[63] Furthermore, they explicitly deny that we inherit guilt from anyone, maintaining that instead we inherit our fallen nature. In this they differ from the Augustinian position common in the West that each person is actually inherits Adam's guilt. "The West... understands that humanity is... 'guilty' of the sin of Adam and Eve.... In the Orthodox Christian understanding, while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death."[64] What is here attributed to "the West" may hold for some strands of Protestantism, but is expressly excluded in the teaching of the Catholic Church, which holds that "original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants ... but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man".[7]"

Here's how Augustine defined it (note: Augustines reading of Romans 5:12 is based on a mistranslation of the text as he was reading from the Latin Vulgate) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina..._Protestantism

1. Adam sins.
2.The guilt of that sin is passed down genetically, in his mind through the sexual act of reproducing (Augustine struggled with sexual temptation all his life, so it's easy to see how he came up with this view).
3. Therefore, we are all as guilty as if we had committed Adams sin. Adam's sin affects us all, but we are not all guilty of Adams specific sin.

So basically, if Adam had a fortune, robbed a bank for more and lost all his money, in Augustines view you also robbed that bank. You literally were guilty as if you committed the same sin.

The problem with that, however, is that this verse:

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

Seems to make it pretty clear that we are responsible for our own actions, not those of others. Other challenges include the Hebrew view that humanity isn't totally depraved with a little good left over, but good with a little bad in it:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."

The Hebrews also believed that each man was responsible before God for HIS OWN actions:

Matthew 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."(i.e. judged by your sins, not Adams)

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

There are also other verses by Paul which seem to say the opposite; 'no one is righteous, not one.' But Paul's tenancy to exaggerate (sometimes HUGELY) show through, since there were other righteous men (Job, Old Testament patriarchs, etc. Other examples of his hyperbole include his universal salvation language). Obviously men are capable of good, moral acts. We are not all born mass-murderers of maniacs. In comparison to God and relatiing to our own salvation, it is entirely correct that there are none righteous, and compared to God, our good deeds are crap. But this is only measuring things vertically; obviously we do good deeds on Earth. We are nice to each other, etc.

There's also this verse:

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

This one can go either way; but given the Hebrew view that humans are free moral agents (and the fact that they don't believe in Original Sin anyway) this verse seems to support that sinful acts affect everyone, not just the sinner, as opposed to the children being uilty of the fathers sin. See Achen and the city of Ai story for more on that. A reading supporting Original Sin is IMO reading something into the text that is not meant to be there.

Keep in mind that the Augustinian/Calvinist version of original sin was developed to contradict Pelagius, who believed that men are NOT fallen. Given Augustine's zealous personal nature it seems quite logical for him to go the exact opposite way and deny any good at all in men. His theology on this subject is IMO based too much on Greek thought and not enough on Hebrew thought, which is where the faith originated. Augustine's views eventually also led to the 'storehouses of merit' doctrine which was expounded on by Anselm (IE penal substitution as understood by the West, 'De Cur Homos,' etc, etc). and led to the standard Protestant view on justification. Strains of Anselm can still be seen even today in Western Christianity (there are shades of his thought in Wesleyan too).
 
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hedrick

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Here's how Augustine defined it (note: Augustines reading of Romans 5:12 is based on a mistranslation of the text as he was reading from the Latin Vulgate) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina..._Protestantism

1. Adam sins.
2.The guilt of that sin is passed down genetically, in his mind through the sexual act of reproducing (Augustine struggled with sexual temptation all his life, so it's easy to see how he came up with this view).
3. Therefore, we are all as guilty as if we had committed Adams sin. Adam's sin affects us all, but we are not all guilty of Adams specific sin.

Wikipedia may or may not be right about Augustine, but Calvin denies 2. He clearly denies that we are guilty of Adam's sin. Whether he agrees with your point 3 is unclear. He certainly affirms what you affirm. See Institutes 2.1.8. He denies both that the primary fault was sexual, and that we are directly guilty of Adam's sin. He argument is that what is passed on is the corruption of our nature, which leads us to sin. The one pont that Orthodox might want to dispute is his claim that this corruption is in itself a fault which God condemns.

And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that &#8220;death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,&#8221; (Rom. 5:12); that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother&#8217;s womb, suffer not for another&#8217;s, but for their own defect. For although they have not yet produced the fruits of their own unrighteousness, they have the seed implanted in them.

Remember that for Calvin sin is not primarily specific actions, but the state of being opposed to God. This can exist before any specific action that reflects it.

He notices the difference between his view and Augustine, but minimizes it

Hence Augustine, though he often terms it another&#8217;s sin (that he may more clearly show how it comes to us by descent), at the same time asserts that it is each individual&#8217;s own sin.

His quotations from Augustine are carefully chosen to emphasize this reading.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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Wikipedia may or may not be right about Augustine, but Calvin denies both 2 and 3. See Institutes 2.1.8. He denies both that the primary fault was sexual, and that we are directly guilty of Adam's sin. He argument is that what is passed on is the corruption of our nature, which leads us to sin. The one pont that Orthodox might want to dispute is his claim that this corruption is in itself a fault which God condemns.



Remember that for Calvin sin is not primarily specific actions, but the state of being opposed to God.

He notices the difference between his view and Augustine, but minimizes it

Right - I wouldn't argue with any of this. My post wasn't a dig at any tradition, just a look at the history of the doctrine up until about Anselm - it's also a sketch-view, so I'm sure I left out some of the more subtle developments. I don't think there's anything historically wrong with what I posted, but if there is correct me.

But I would agree that Calvin's view of original sin is more nuanced than a lot of other views. I actually was unaware that Calvin denied that we are guilty of Adam's sin. I'll have to look more into that.

*edit - I checked it out. That's interesting. Learn something new every day :cool:
 
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chilehed

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..Above it says everyone is responsible for his own sin and below it says by repenting and turning away from sins he is forgiven ...Can someone throw some more light on this ?

Thanks
In the Catholic understanding, Original Sin means that we are born into a state in which we are deprived of the original holiness and justice in which we were intended to exist. It does not mean that we are personally guilty of the sins of our ancestors.

By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"&#8212;a state and not an act.
 
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firegunner

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You mean you believe in the doctrine of original sin, that all humans are born with sin, and that we are basically stained from birth.
Jesus himself never taught such a thing as original sin, rather Jesus explicitly taught the opposite of original sin!

When we go read the Matthew 18 : 1-4 we see

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So notice what happens here, the disciples ask Jesus who will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus uses a child as an example, now ask yourself this, why would Jesus use a stained sinner as an example of the greatest in heaven!

You believe that no one with sin can enter heaven, as sin cannot be around God, so how could Jesus use an example of a SINNER?!

Obviously Jesus did not believe children are born with sin, and it makes perfect sense as to why he would use a child as an example, because as we all know children are innocent people, and indeed the greatest one in heaven will have to be like a child, innocent, humble, and pure. Original sin says the opposite, original sin does not even spare the young children as it teaches that ALL humans are BORN with sins, naturally this includes babies and children!

So if Jesus believed in original sin, that all humans are born with sin, then how could use a sinner as an example of the greatest person in heaven, can you compare a sinner with the greatest in heaven, does that make any sense?
 
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drich0150

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You mean you believe in the doctrine of original sin, that all humans are born with sin, and that we are basically stained from birth.
Sin is a Choice. We are all born with this ablity to choose.
 
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chilehed

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You mean you believe in the doctrine of original sin, that all humans are born with sin, and that we are basically stained from birth.
I believe what I said I believe, which is not what you said I believe.

If you're so sure that you know what original sin is, why did you bother asking for clarification on it?

Jesus himself never taught such a thing as original sin, rather Jesus explicitly taught the opposite of original sin!

When we go read the Matthew 18 : 1-4 we see..
We see him saying something that you think means what you inferred from it, but which doesn't say that at all. It doesn't explicitly say what you think it means, that's just your own conclusion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You mean you believe in the doctrine of original sin, that all humans are born with sin, and that we are basically stained from birth.
Jesus himself never taught such a thing as original sin, rather Jesus explicitly taught the opposite of original sin!

When we go read the Matthew 18 : 1-4 we see

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So notice what happens here, the disciples ask Jesus who will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus uses a child as an example, now ask yourself this, why would Jesus use a stained sinner as an example of the greatest in heaven!

You believe that no one with sin can enter heaven, as sin cannot be around God, so how could Jesus use an example of a SINNER?!

Obviously Jesus did not believe children are born with sin, and it makes perfect sense as to why he would use a child as an example, because as we all know children are innocent people, and indeed the greatest one in heaven will have to be like a child, innocent, humble, and pure. Original sin says the opposite, original sin does not even spare the young children as it teaches that ALL humans are BORN with sins, naturally this includes babies and children!

So if Jesus believed in original sin, that all humans are born with sin, then how could use a sinner as an example of the greatest person in heaven, can you compare a sinner with the greatest in heaven, does that make any sense?

Frankly I think you've made several errors here concerning how some have explained Original Sin, what the concept of the kingdom is in the Gospels, and have made several sweeping generalizations that are not universally applicable.

For one: Jesus' statement isn't about "going to heaven", Jesus is talking about the kingdom of God/Heaven (the same thing) which isn't the afterlife and/or some "place" "up there". The kingdom is God's reign. This is why Jesus could say in Luke's Gospel, (from memory and slight paraphrase) "The kingdom does not come with observation, no one says look it's there! or see it's over here! The kingdom is in your midst".

Another: Jesus' statement makes no mention one way or another concerning the notion of our human nature, there's nothing in the text that either rejects or supports the concept of Original Sin. Like most other places, Jesus describes the kingdom as belonging to the weak, the poor, the least fortunate, the most unlikely, etc. Such as Jesus saying that the least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist, and the least among us is greatest in the kingdom; or Jesus saying blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom. So on and so forth.

Jesus describes the kingdom in subversive and inversive ways that go against the grain of human anticipation and expectation. Jesus presents God's kingdom as a counter-intuitive thing, an antithesis to the political, religious and social power structures of the world. Where true justice rules, not through coercive imperial or revolutionary violence (Jesus' kingdom excludes the ambitions of both Caesar and the Jewish Zealots), but through the meekness, weakness and wholly sacrificial outpouring of love and service in imitation to the God who has sent Jesus and whom Jesus comes to represent and make known in the spirit and tradition of the ancient Prophets of Israel. Hence Jesus could quote Isaiah, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor, freedom to captives and liberation to prisoners and to announce the acceptable year [the Jubilee] of the Lord" as being fulfilled then and there.

Thus to be as the little child addresses the place of non-status, of general weakness, meekness, and is part of the general message of the kingdom's radicality in subverting the ordinary power structures of the world and its violent machinations.

Finally: You asserted the idea that sinners can't go to heaven because sin can't be in God's presence. I understand why this was said, this is a rather common statement made by a number of Christians. It is, however, rather theologically difficult (if not outright absurd) due to the reality of the Christian confession of the Incarnation, and of Christ's death and resurrection. The core Christian message is God's willfull participation in our humanity with all our fragility and sharing in our sufferings and becoming utmost Victim to the tragedy of human wickedness and suffering. God in Christ has become the locus of all man's inhumanity to man, the supreme victim, and bearer of humanity's rightful cross for our sake and for our salvation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Elaine Pagels wrote a really fascinating book about original sin called "Adam Even and the Serpent."

Her main arguement is that the first Catholic proponent of original sin believed sin was innate because he had erections against his will. Therefor he felt sin was outside of his will, and he could not control it. So he thought man was born with a sinful nature.

Like most matters of theology I am have no firm opinion about original sin, but if I had to pick a side I personally don't believe we're born sinful. I think we live in a world where sin is usually the easiest/simplest path so we all pick it from time to time.

I read an interesting viewpoint based on Gnostic scriptures (unfortunately, I can't remember which one) that people are bound to the will of the archons (hidden demonic rulers) until they receive Gnosis, which a person can choose to receive at any time. I would tend to agree with that viewpoint, which would basically mean people are subject to this world of sin, until they choose to receive salvation. (So I believe in determination up to a point but I absolutely believe in any sort of predestination).

(On a side note, I don't really see any difference between what Gnostics referred to as receiving Gnosis (spiritual knowledge) than what we normally refer to as the process of "head knowledge becoming heart knowledge" as they seem to me to describe the same process).

Just my two cents, I'm sure I'm in a minority of one ;)
 
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