Question for those opposed to same sex marriage

[CaptainNemo1138]

I think i tis because the conservative argument requires a lot more words than simply beating the old drum:

"Everyone is fine and OK so do not hurt people's feelings."

As oppose to the Conservative argument of "Gays are icky, here are some thousand year old texts that support my point!"

 

[Verv]

Because our Lord commanded that we should treat others as we would wish to be treated. Should we be telling you the only reason you want to get married is to perform perverse sex, that you are just like all other Italian-Americans (like Vito Genovese and Lucky Luciano), that you should be excluded from God's mercy for things about yourself you are powerless to change? You have been stereotyping and judging -- and according to Matthew's Gospel deserve to be judged by the same measure you judge. If you think that my comments above imply offensive attitudes, look and see them in your own posts.

The notion that someone is powerless to change or suppress immoral urges is foolish. There are plenty of people who have gone so far as to give up sex for the entirety of their lives by entering the monastic lifestyle.

And we are only encouraging those who are interested in change to change; the rest are free to live out their days doing as they want.

But asking us to recognize it as good or beneficial and be acceptance of it as a status equal to our own is going too far.

I believe if one wishes to condemn something without researching it, one has just proved that they are not interested in rational reasons for doing so.

"Research" on issues like this means different things to different people.

To me, it means having you read up on Neo-Confucianism, for starters, and do some serious thinking about the nature of society and civilization.

To you, it means having me read modern homosexual advocacy institutions giving me pointless statistics that were bias from the start of the foundation of their organization, and are bias as they are being done in the context of societies which already exist poisoning themselves with their own liberalism and immorality.

They're already having sex, so obviously they don't want to get married to have sex if they can already do it. They want to get married to showcase their love and make a formal commitment to each other. They want to get married for legal recognition of said commitment. Why would they be getting married for sex when they are already having all the sex they need?

Did you get married just so you could have sex? Assuming you are married. If not, do you plan to marry just for sex?

Also, the point was, I believe, not about sex in general, but about the fixation of the anti-homosexual crowd on anal sex specifically. Lots of gay people do not have anal sex at all (and lots of straight people do), so why should that be an issue in whether they should marry?

The Bible says marriage is a good institution so people do not fall into sexual sin.

The Bible also notes that marriage is for a man and a woman who then become one flesh.

When I get married it will be to fulfill myself in this way so as to avoid sexual lust, sexual sin, etc.

That is the Christian conception.

 

[Verv]

"Because it's our right to prejudice versus their right to quality!"

Define equality.

How do you want them to be equal?

Go into specifics.

As oppose to the Conservative argument of "Gays are icky, here are some thousand year old texts that support my point!"

No. That is not the conservative argument.

The conservative argument focuses on the ideas that this is a fundamental violation of the basic principles of life (or Yichi as it stands in the Confucian tradition).

Homosexuality is also not traditionally viewed as wrong; there have been countless epochs where it has existed as largely and widely accepted.

The concept of 'conservative' and 'liberal' make very little sense when we are trying to apply them to the whole of human history.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I've seen people have nervous breakdowns because they are gay; not to mention all the suicide attempts, even in today's accepting society there are gays trying to kill themselves...

Sorry. Studies have shown its not being gay that leads to suicide attempts…it is the result of bigotry, hatred, discrimination and fear of anti-gay violence that his the culprit.

Hidaka, Y and D. Operario. Attempted Suicide, psychological health and exposure to harassment among Japanese homosexual and bisexual men.

so I'd say it has inherent negative effects on their well-being. And it doesn't matter what you a psychologist say to them because it's how they themselves view certain homosexual acts they are attracted too or might think they will engage in.

Or more likely its years of people claiming homosexuals are diseased, sick, and disturbed individuals

I've seen people go through hell because they are homosexual oriented and some people do not just "get over it" because a psychologist, their family or friends say "it's okay to be gay".

Again the hell is caused by society not someone’s sexual orientation

Each person needs to be treated and respected as an individual, not lumped into some phantom belief that even all gays or lesbians are okay with being gay.

You say everyone should be treated with respect yet you are supporting the false belief that gays are somehow mentally ill

 

[BigBadWlf]

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".
Even in their hearts, their inmost being , they know that what they practice is perversion. That is why they constantly seek reasons, logics in order to justify their acts.
Try as you may, you can never suppress the truth, for it is the only thing that will stand when others have failed.
A problem should be solved and not accepted.

You mean the perversion of justifying hatred and discrimination right?

 

[Verv]

You mean the perversion of justifying hatred and discrimination right?

I am curious as to what the point of this post was.

Do you think if you keep calling your opponents 'hateful' over and over again such libel will win you support?

 

[BigBadWlf]

I never suggested that it was a mental illness, do not put your words in my mouth Wicked Willow. I don't want any issues here.



My point was this; phocology books will explain to you exactly "why" people "desire" to perform a homosexual act. It will also explain to you how a person would come to these thoughts in the first place.

Not any reputable psychology book

There are fringe groups that make bizarre unsupported claims about the origin of homosexuality…mostly saying stuff like it has to do with an absent father or some childhood experience…but such claims have no evidence to back them up at all. Mostly such false information is put out by an organization or individual to further their political goals rather than a desire to add to the wealth of knowledge on the topic

I am not going to quote from a book now am I? I think I'll leave the thread. It was nice talking about this but exactly where can we take it from here?

Sounds like you are well aware that your claims have no evidence to support them

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

I am curious as to what the point of this post was.

Do you think if you keep calling your opponents 'hateful' over and over again such libel will win you support?

Denying another person rights because of a difference in ideology is hatred.

 

[BigBadWlf]

It causes problems in society.

Please provide evidence to support this claim

DO you think that prejudice and discrimination somehow don’t cause problems?

When our youth sees this they become accustomed to it being ok when it's not.

When our youth see hatred and discrimination they become accustomed to it being OK when it is not

It ruins the sanctity of marriage and it's meaning.

People keep posting this but when we ask just what is the real world effect of this no one is able to provide ANY concrete examples

Gays just think they are some kind of race of people who deserve rights per their CHOICE.

It’s called the constitution …read it…it says that everyone has equal rights and equal protection under the law…even minorities.

As for this nonsense about ‘choice’…The only ‘choice’ gays and lesbians make is the choice to be honest and the choice to stand up to discrimination

Allowing legal gay marriage is ridiculous! If we are to legalise that....then I want rights to whatever I need because I'm Italian!

Exactly what rights are you being denied?

You have the right to be prejudiced…but that right ends when it interferes with the rights of others

Your thinking to yourself "Who cares that you are Italian, why should you have special rights?" .......My point exactly! At least I am part of a race of people, and gay is not one of them nor will it ever be.

Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives--the right to equal treatment and equal protection under the law. These are rights shared by all, even people you don’t happen to like. Gay rights are not "special rights" in any way. It isn't "special" to be free from discrimination, it’s very ordinary. When others have equal rights, my rights are not reduced in any way and neither are yours. My rights are not diluted when my neighbor enjoys protection from the law—she/he becomes my ally in defending the rights we share.

Gays need to repent and REVERT back to hederosexuality.

You mean they should start lying about who they are

 

[BigBadWlf]

Well gee, let's see this is a thread about same-sex marriage. Amazing that sex and marriage thing...ya know... I don't think they want to get married so that they can go to the movies together.

So the only reason you would get married is for sex? Or is it ‘different’ for opposite sex marriage?

 

[BigBadWlf]

The notion that someone is powerless to change or suppress immoral urges is foolish. There are plenty of people who have gone so far as to give up sex for the entirety of their lives by entering the monastic lifestyle.

But they didn’t change their sexual orientation

And we are only encouraging those who are interested in change to change; the rest are free to live out their days doing as they want.

Proved actual evidence that people can and do change sexual orientation form homosexual (Kinsey scale 6) to heterosexual (Kinsey scale 0)

But asking us to recognize it as good or beneficial and be acceptance of it as a status equal to our own is going too far.

Are you talking about racial equality?

"Research" on issues like this means different things to different people.

To me, it means having you read up on Neo-Confucianism, for starters, and do some serious thinking about the nature of society and civilization.

To you, it means having me read modern homosexual advocacy institutions giving me pointless statistics that were bias from the start of the foundation of their organization, and are bias as they are being done in the context of societies which already exist poisoning themselves with their own liberalism and immorality.

Mostly it means actual research that is legitimately published in peer reviewed journals

The Bible says marriage is a good institution so people do not fall into sexual sin.

The Bible also notes that marriage is for a man and a woman who then become one flesh.

When I get married it will be to fulfill myself in this way so as to avoid sexual lust, sexual sin, etc.

So you are saying that non-Christians should not have the right to get married

That is the Christian conception.

Its your opinion

 

[Polycarp1]

I am curious as to what the point of this post was.

Do you think if you keep calling your opponents 'hateful' over and over again such libel will win you support?

Yes, when what they are espousing is hatred or bigotry, and you wish to expose it for what it is, trusting in the decency of the majority of mankind.

 

[beechy]

Does it matter? I thought this was a Christian forum??????????? I can't understand this entire forums obsesion with homosexuality anyway?

And it's not ok for hederos to do it either. God designed that part of the body for "exit only"

Where does the Bible say that straight people are not to engage in anal sex?

 

[beechy]

Wait a second....thats your defense?? What do you mean things I am unable to change!? I can change anything about myself! A Person CHOOSES to be gay! They do have the power to change that!

I did not choose to get butterflies in my stomach when she walks in the room, or for my heart to race when she calls. I did, however, choose whether and how to act on those feelings. When is the last time you "chose" to have a crush on or fall in love with someone? The feelings happen whether you want them to or not, which is why it's called "falling" in love ...

 

[beechy]

So what?

It goes against the natural principles of human society.

Man is meant to procreate and seek happiness through union with woman, and vice versa; society is meant to raise children with both a man and a woman providing and demonstrating male and female roles.

How did you reach this conclusion?

 

[Supernaut]

What is normal for you is not necesarily normal for some Christians. Actually the majority who do not agree with this lifestyle. So why have the few who do dictate to the rest to teach it... I am not talking about the "diversity" but rather the ins and outs of what actually goes on in their very gridy bitty deatails of that 'relationship'? if we teach "reproduction' system then the 'straight" sex is within this issue of reproduction...Why our kids need to know the exact details of a sexual relationship that does not bear kids anyhow??? For social reasons?? Why would it make them less'direverse" if they are not told the 'details" of such sexual act ...hmmm it is beyond me truly...

I understand that different viewpoints on this issue and respect both sides. Fortunately, I side with the oppressed.

The thing is, they are not teachings the intimate details of a homosexuals sex life. They are teaching that two men can have a normal happy family raising children just like hetero's. They are teaching that some people are born gay and some are born straight. They are teaching the sensical stuff...nothing along the lines of, "this is what anal sex is like between two men". I wouldn't allow my children to sit in a class being taught that graphic stuff either.

You can't seriously tell me that kids are "persuaded" to be gay because of a sex ed class.

And furthermore such 'education' should be left to the parent not the school system as it is character forming. If they taught monotheism and basic ethics maybe I can see this subject also taught if not ...then the school has not business in 'forming" the character of my child... none

Unfortunately, most parents, it seems, are not qualified/capable of such teaching....leaving kids alone to interpret what they see/hear around them.

I am all for education on monotheism!!

 

[Supernaut]

As much as I am a traditionalist and hate change......in your case theres hope.lol lose the egg. Replace it with a......Ostrich egg or something, something a little more manly.lol I am just messin with ya dude...I don't joke all that often, so it felt good for a second.....now back to regular Italianguy

I don't like birds. I don't think any egg will be considered manly..LOL.

Keep the humor! Life is better when yer smiling and laughing!!

 

[Skaloop]

It goes against the natural principles of human society.

Man is meant to procreate and seek happiness through union with woman, and vice versa; society is meant to raise children with both a man and a woman providing and demonstrating male and female roles.

If that's so, why did you also say the following, with the implication that it is noble:

There are plenty of people who have gone so far as to give up sex for the entirety of their lives by entering the monastic lifestyle.

Being celibate goes against the natural principles of human society, as you have described them above.

 

[David Brider]

Well gee, let's see this is a thread about same-sex marriage. Amazing that sex and marriage thing...ya know... I don't think they want to get married so that they can go to the movies together.

Same-gender couples want to get married for the same reasons that opposite-gender couples want to get married - because the two people involved love each other very much and want to make a formal commitment to spend the rest of their natural lives together.

David.

 

[David Brider]

It causes problems in society.

Well, that's the biggie, isn't it? We're constantly told by those who are opposed to same-gender marriage that it'll somehow "cause problems", and yet when it comes to it, the actual nature of those problems are either not explained, or are explained in such vague terms as to be virtually meaningless.

When our youth sees this they become accustomed to it being ok when it's not.

Well, some people think it's not OK. Other people do. But hey, here's the thing - if you think that same-gender isn't OK, then just...don't get married to someone of the same gender as yourself. If someone else does think it's OK, and if they happen to be in love with someone of the same gender as themselves, then where's the harm in letting them get married to the person they're in love with? If you want to teach your kids that that's not OK, you're still quite at liberty to do so.

It ruins the sanctity of marriage and it's meaning.

I disagree. I think that as long as it's clear that marriage is still about two consenting adults who are in love with each other making a formal commitment to spend the rest of their natural lives together during a ceremony that is both incredibly solemn and yet filled with great joy and celebration, the sanctity of marriage is preserved, whether between opposite-gender couples or same-gender couples.

Gays just think they are some kind of race of people who deserve rights per their CHOICE.

What choice are you talking about?

Allowing legal gay marriage is ridiculous! If we are to legalise that....then I want rights to whatever I need because I'm Italian! Your thinking to yourself "Who cares that you are Italian, why should you have special rights?" .......My point exactly! At least I am part of a race of people, and gay is not one of them nor will it ever be.

It's not about giving same-gender couples special rights because they're gay (actually, it's not necessarily the case that both people in a same-gender relationship are gay - one or both of them may be bisexual, same as one or both people in an opposite-gender relationship may be bisexual). It's about giving same-gender couples the same rights to get married as opposite-gender couples currently enjoy.

Gays need to repent and REVERT back to hederosexuality.

If they're gay, they weren't heterosexual in the first place.

David.