Question for my Jewish brothers and sisters

[danny ski]

Justice and mercy, which one prevails? It's interesting that is one of the questions when you take a Briggs Myers test, based on Freud's understanding of of the variety of personality types of all humans. It is one of the questions I always stumble with as you have to make a choice.

I think there is no choice, that they are the two sides of the same coin. That coin being our G-d.

It recalls to mind Jeremiah 9:23

Thus says the L-RD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the L-RD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the L-RD.​

And Hoshea 6 where He says:

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.​

I think Zechariah 7 sums it up

"This is what the L-RD Almighty said: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.​

The emphasis I think should be on the 'true' which it seems he is saying it to show mercy and compassion to one another, as in loving your neighbor as yourself. This is what I believe Yeshua was trying to teach as well.

He speaks quite harshly to those teaching the masses in Matthew 23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.'​

He actually tries to bring this lesson home to them numerous times. Here in Matt 9:10-13

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.​

I read this as him saying He'd rather show mercy by drawing them to repent than have a sacrifice for it.

David comes to mind where his contrite heart was pleasing to the L-RD and not the sacrifice of animals.

Jesus also brings it up when they accuse him of desecrating the Shabbat in Matthew 12.

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ and you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”​

This of course brings to mind Pikuach Nefesh.

David does come to mind. Gd showed an incredible amount of mercy toward him in David's illicit affair. Yet, He applied very harsh justice, at the same time.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't accept the premise that anybody can free us from sin. Why? Because the Torah explicitly sets up the relationship between men and sin. The idea that we're slaves to sin is incorrect one. Sin is a result of our action, it does not exist by itself and we are completely responsible for it occurring or not. In other words, sin is a choice. You cannot be freed from a choice, that would negate the whole premise of free will.

Do you believe that God can do anything except train His people to stop sinning?

 

[danny ski]

God's law is His instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good. So regardless of any covenant, anyone who wants to do what is holy, righteous, and good can do so by living in accordance with what the law instructs, and as part of the New Covenant, we are told to have such a conduct. For example, 1 Peter 1:14-16 tells us to have a holy conduct not because we are Jews or because we are under the Mosaic Covenant, but because God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45. The same goes for doing what is righteous and good. Anyone who is not under the Mosaic Covenant who practices disobedience to God's law is guilty of doing what He has revealed to be sin and of not acting in line with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, whereas someone who is under the Mosaic Covenant who practices disobedience is guilty of all that plus acting against their covenant agreement.

I am in complete agreement with you that it is deeply inconsistent for someone to hold both the view that Messiah died to free them from the law and the view that the law was never given to them in the first place.

if you're not under the Mosaic Covenant, you cannot be guilty of breaking it. As for"God's law", I have no idea what that means. The Mosaic Covenant is the only "God's law" I know.

 

[danny ski]

Do you believe that God can do anything except train His people to stop sinning?

Gd, being Gd, can do whatever He likes. But, and it's a monumental but, He told us explicitly "make a choice". That's the message of Torah.

 

[Soyeong]

if you're not under the Mosaic Covenant, you cannot be guilty of breaking it. As for"God's law", I have no idea what that means. The Mosaic Covenant is the only "God's law" I know.

God has always been holy, righteous, and good from the beginning, so the way to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct has existed from the beginning independently of any covenant before God made any covenants with man. So there is a distinction between the way to act in line with God's character and a covenant agreement to act in line with His character. "God's law" is also known as the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was given to reveal what sin is, so someone who is not part of the Mosaic Covenant who breaks the Mosaic law is not guilty of breaking their covenant, but is nevertheless still guilty doing what God has revealed to be sin.

Gd, being Gd, can do whatever He likes. But, and it's a monumental but, He told us explicitly "make a choice". That's the message of Torah.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I agree that we have a choice, but do you think that these verses are saying that God will violate our free will?

 

[danny ski]

God has always been holy, righteous, and good from the beginning, so the way to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct has existed from the beginning independently of any covenant before God made any covenants with man. So there is a distinction between the way to act in line with God's character and a covenant agreement to act in line with His character. "God's law" is also known as the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was given to reveal what sin is, so someone who is not part of the Mosaic Covenant who breaks the Mosaic law is not guilty of breaking their covenant, but is nevertheless still guilty doing what God has revealed to be sin.



Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

I agree that we have a choice, but do you think that these verses are saying that God will violate our free will?

The sin was defined long before arrival of the Mosaic Law. As for Ezekiel, we will see(like with Jeremiah ), but I cannot imagine any benefit in obeying rules again ones will. It's inconsistent with the Torah's teachings.

 

[Soyeong]

The sin was defined long before arrival of the Mosaic Law. As for Ezekiel, we will see(like with Jeremiah ), but I cannot imagine any benefit in obeying rules again ones will. It's inconsistent with the Torah's teachings.

Genesis 26:5 talks about obeying God's commandments, statutes, laws, which were given long before the Mosaic law, but were nevertheless still instructions for how to act in line with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness. So it is not about who the instructions were given to so much as it is about who the God is that gave them. I am told to do what is righteous (1 John 3:10), so I should live in accordance with all of the instructions that God has given for how to do what is righteous.

I would agree it is inconsistent with the Torah's teachings for God to violate our free will, so I don't think Ezekiel 36:26-27 was suggesting that, nor has anything I've said. So if you agree that God can train His people to stop sinning, then you should not reject the premise that we can be freed from sin.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't accept the premise that anybody can free us from sin. Why? Because the Torah explicitly sets up the relationship between men and sin. The idea that we're slaves to sin is incorrect one. Sin is a result of our action, it does not exist by itself and we are completely responsible for it occurring or not. In other words, sin is a choice. You cannot be freed from a choice, that would negate the whole premise of free will.

Yes, sin is a choice and so is obedience to YHWH's commandments. If we choose to obey, then we serve YHWH. If we choose to disobey and sin, then we serve sin.

Messiah Yeshua said,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:34-36​

Perhaps you were unaware of these words. Now that you are aware, you need to choose to believe them or not. Choose wisely lest you be found fighting against the Savior of the world who has come to set men free so that they serve YHWH rather than sin.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

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