Question for my Jewish brothers and sisters

[danny ski]

Perhaps that is what Jews today believe, but ancient Jewish literature says differently.


.

Not necessarily so. The Torah says "Justice, justice you shall pursue " right after it asks us to administer it vigorously and show no partiality. That would suggest that the application of justice trumps mercy. Yet, the application of the Torah in judgement seems to point to the opposite. The truth is, our Sages always considered application of the law to be in balance, justice tempered by mercy and mercy by justice. One cannot be greater than the other.

 

[Grafted In]

I think I'll just tell you what I have always believed and see where that goes.

It is my belief that God expects absolute perfection in order to be rightious. Since we have no hope of coming anywhere near perfection we are lost and are deserving of hell.
The Law as well as the entire record in the books if the OT are a teaching tool, emphasizing our need for a Savior, as well as a record of God telling us how He will make a way for our relationshop with Him to be restored.
So, when Jesus came He fulfilled the heavy burden of the Law so that we are free and with the indwelling of The Holy Ghost, we live by faith, not by deed, as in keeping laws. He has written them in our hearts where He obides and we are given a new heart that desires to please Him.
I don't see keeping a law as being good works because Jesus did that for us.
Our works are what we do to spread the good news that Jesus saves.

If course my post is a very brief summary of my faith.

 

[gadar perets]

Not necessarily so. The Torah says "Justice, justice you shall pursue " right after it asks us to administer it vigorously and show no partiality.

Can you provide a reference for that verse please?

 

[danny ski]

Can you provide a reference for that verse please?

Deuteronomy 16 18-20

 

[visionary]

What do you make of the things seen inside the empty tomb, an angel at the head and another at the foot of where Jesus had been laid?

Just as in the day of the real Yom Kippur, the temple in heaven will be opened and all will see the Ark of the Testament. Yeshua is the Ark of the Old and New Testament.

 

[Grafted In]

Ok. Is it a far stretch to think of the Heavenly Ark as the end of The Law when Jesus sprinkled it with His own blood.
Scripture tells us He entered once into The Holyest of Holys to sprinkle His blood for all who believe in Him. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
The Torah tells us that the blood of bulls and such would do away with sin, but only for a while. When the perfect sacrifice was bled and died His blood covers every sin, past, present,and future. There is therefore no more need to use the methods of remission of the OT.

I wish with all my heart that Mesianics and Christions could all come to the same conclusuon. And I'm not saying my thoughts are the absolute Truth, nor do I believe are yours.
Lets search for that answer together in peace. I'm reaching out to you. Please consider, each of you, to reach out to a Christian.
Afterall, don't we all have the indwelling of the same Holy Ghost?

 

[danny ski]

I think I'll just tell you what I have always believed and see where that goes.

It is my belief that God expects absolute perfection in order to be rightious. Since we have no hope of coming anywhere near perfection we are lost and are deserving of hell.
The Law as well as the entire record in the books if the OT are a teaching tool, emphasizing our need for a Savior, as well as a record of God telling us how He will make a way for our relationshop with Him to be restored.
So, when Jesus came He fulfilled the heavy burden of the Law so that we are free and with the indwelling of The Holy Ghost, we live by faith, not by deed, as in keeping laws. He has written them in our hearts where He obides and we are given a new heart that desires to please Him.
I don't see keeping a law as being good works because Jesus did that for us.
Our works are what we do to spread the good news that Jesus saves.

If course my post is a very brief summary of my faith.

The Torah disagrees with you. The 'heavy burden" and no need to do anything is in direct opposite of what Gd teaches in the Book of Deuteronomy. I encourage you to read it before posting anti Torah comments.

 

[Grafted In]

If my post offended you I sincerely apologize.
Perhaps I ought not post on MJ.
Just ask and I will not post here.

 

[Soyeong]

I think I'll just tell you what I have always believed and see where that goes.

It is my belief that God expects absolute perfection in order to be rightious. Since we have no hope of coming anywhere near perfection we are lost and are deserving of hell.
The Law as well as the entire record in the books if the OT are a teaching tool, emphasizing our need for a Savior, as well as a record of God telling us how He will make a way for our relationshop with Him to be restored.
So, when Jesus came He fulfilled the heavy burden of the Law so that we are free and with the indwelling of The Holy Ghost, we live by faith, not by deed, as in keeping laws. He has written them in our hearts where He obides and we are given a new heart that desires to please Him.
I don't see keeping a law as being good works because Jesus did that for us.
Our works are what we do to spread the good news that Jesus saves.

If course my post is a very brief summary of my faith.

Is it your belief that God can do anything except cause His people to become perfectly obedient? The law requires obedience and God is perfectly capable of causing us to obey the law and thereby meet is righteous requirement (Romans 8:4). When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete on the day of Messiah, we will be made to do what is perfect (Philippians 1:6) and our sanctification is about being made to be perfect like Messiah.

There are many people in the Bible who were described as righteous, such a Noah, Zechariah, and Elizabeth:

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

Luke 1:5-6 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah,[a] of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

I do not see any support in the Bible that God expects absolute perfection in order to become righteous. Furthermore, if your belief is true, and Noah, Zechariah, and Elizabeth are righteous, then Romans 3:23 is false and it is not the case that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. However, being blameless is not the same thing being sinless, but rather it refers to someone who has had their sins forgiven. The one and only way to become righteous has always been by faith and God has always wanted a relationship with His people based on faith.

Is it your understanding that living by faith means to live in some manner other than God has commanded, where we do not depend on Him for instructions for how to live? It doesn't make any sense to me to say that God's law points out our need for a Savior, but then you don't believe that our Savior saves us from doing what the law pointed out we needed him for. Our salvation is from sin so our Savior needs to save us from doing that the things that God has revealed in His law are sin. The Spirit also has the role of leading us in obedience to God's commands:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God takes away our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh so that we will obey His commands, not so that we will be free from having to obey them. In Deuteronomy 30:11, God said that what He had commanded was not too difficult and in 1 John 5:3, it confirms that the commands of God are not burdensome. The problem was not that God's law is hard, but that our hearts are hard, so God is giving us a heart of flesh so that we will obey it. Furthermore, you do not delight in a heavy burden as Paul and David did (Romans 7:22, Psalms 1:1-2), but rather God's law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls:

Jeremiah 6:16-19 Thus says the Lord: “Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying, ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18 Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

I don't see keeping a law as being good works because Jesus did that for us.

Jesus summarized the law as being instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so saying that Jesus obeyed the law so we don't have to is like saying that he loved God and others so that we don't have to.

 

[danny ski]

If my post offended you I sincerely apologize.
Perhaps I ought not post on MJ.
Just ask and I will not post here.

Lol! Offend? Not at all. Post away. Perhaps you should try not to post against the Torah's teachings on a forum with "Judaism" in its name.

 

[Soyeong]

Lol! Offend? Not at all. Post away. Perhaps you should try not to post against the Torah's teachings on a forum with "Judaism" in its name.

I've always thought that subforums should be a way of organizing topics and a place to discuss everything relevant to it, not a place where we can't be disagreed with. It should be a place to encourage people to come and first understand, then challenge our views, not a place where you have to be worried about offending people by disagree with them, but none of the site owners asked me.

 

[Grafted In]

Lol! Offend? Not at all. Post away. Perhaps you should try not to post against the Torah's teachings on a forum with "Judaism" in its name.

All I have to post are my beliefs. If I wrote that I believe the law is still to be followed I would be lying.

 

[Grafted In]

I've always thought that subforums should be a way of organizing topics and a place to discuss everything relevant to it, not a place where we can't be disagreed with. It should be a place to encourage people to come and first understand, then challenge our views, not a place where you have to be worried about offending people by disagree with them, but none of the site owners asked me.

Lol! Offend? Not at all. Post away. Perhaps you should try not to post against the Torah's teachings on a forum with "Judaism" in its name.

Message recieved. I assumed you already knew my beliefs. "Christ and Him crucified."

 

[danny ski]

All I have to post are my beliefs. If I wrote that I believe the law is still to be followed I would be lying.

My point is that the Torah applies and applied to Jews(some may disagree, but the text says so). So, it's kind of irrelevant what the non Jews think about following it or not. This happens to be the point from the Jewish POV . You may believe that you were freed from the "burden" of the law, but, since you were never under it, that liberation is, shall we say, imaginary (?)

 

[gadar perets]

You may believe that you were freed from the "burden" of the law, but, since you were never under it, that liberation is, shall we say, imaginary (?)

While Yeshua did not free us from the "burden of the law" (the law is not burdensome - 1 John 5:3), he did free us from sin.

Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

This does not refer to one literally dying in order to be free from sin, but figuratively putting to death our old sinful self and figuratively resurrecting unto a new creature in Messiah Yeshua. Nor does verse 7 mean we no longer sin, but that we no longer serve it. It is not to have dominion over us so that we are a slave to it. We are freed from its bondage, guilt, and penalty.

 

[Soyeong]

My point is that the Torah applies and applied to Jews(some may disagree, but the text says so). So, it's kind of irrelevant what the non Jews think about following it or not. This happens to be the point from the Jewish POV . You may believe that you were freed from the "burden" of the law, but, since you were never under it, that liberation is, shall we say, imaginary (?)

God's law is His instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good. So regardless of any covenant, anyone who wants to do what is holy, righteous, and good can do so by living in accordance with what the law instructs, and as part of the New Covenant, we are told to have such a conduct. For example, 1 Peter 1:14-16 tells us to have a holy conduct not because we are Jews or because we are under the Mosaic Covenant, but because God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45. The same goes for doing what is righteous and good. Anyone who is not under the Mosaic Covenant who practices disobedience to God's law is guilty of doing what He has revealed to be sin and of not acting in line with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, whereas someone who is under the Mosaic Covenant who practices disobedience is guilty of all that plus acting against their covenant agreement.

I am in complete agreement with you that it is deeply inconsistent for someone to hold both the view that Messiah died to free them from the law and the view that the law was never given to them in the first place.

 

[Grafted In]

Do you consider me to be a Jew?

 

[Grafted In]

. So, it's kind of irrelevant what the non Jews think about following it or not.

Do you consider me to be a Jew?

 

[Lulav]

Not necessarily so. The Torah says "Justice, justice you shall pursue " right after it asks us to administer it vigorously and show no partiality. That would suggest that the application of justice trumps mercy. Yet, the application of the Torah in judgement seems to point to the opposite. The truth is, our Sages always considered application of the law to be in balance, justice tempered by mercy and mercy by justice. One cannot be greater than the other.

Justice and mercy, which one prevails? It's interesting that is one of the questions when you take a Briggs Myers test, based on Freud's understanding of of the variety of personality types of all humans. It is one of the questions I always stumble with as you have to make a choice.

I think there is no choice, that they are the two sides of the same coin. That coin being our G-d.

It recalls to mind Jeremiah 9:23

Thus says the L-RD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the L-RD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the L-RD.​

And Hoshea 6 where He says:

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.​

I think Zechariah 7 sums it up

"This is what the L-RD Almighty said: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.​

The emphasis I think should be on the 'true' which it seems he is saying it to show mercy and compassion to one another, as in loving your neighbor as yourself. This is what I believe Yeshua was trying to teach as well.

He speaks quite harshly to those teaching the masses in Matthew 23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.'​

He actually tries to bring this lesson home to them numerous times. Here in Matt 9:10-13

And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.​

I read this as him saying He'd rather show mercy by drawing them to repent than have a sacrifice for it.

David comes to mind where his contrite heart was pleasing to the L-RD and not the sacrifice of animals.

Jesus also brings it up when they accuse him of desecrating the Shabbat in Matthew 12.

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ and you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”​

This of course brings to mind Pikuach Nefesh.

 

[danny ski]

While Yeshua did not free us from the "burden of the law" (the law is not burdensome - 1 John 5:3), he did free us from sin.

Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

This does not refer to one literally dying in order to be free from sin, but figuratively putting to death our old sinful self and figuratively resurrecting unto a new creature in Messiah Yeshua. Nor does verse 7 mean we no longer sin, but that we no longer serve it. It is not to have dominion over us so that we are a slave to it. We are freed from its bondage, guilt, and penalty.

I don't accept the premise that anybody can free us from sin. Why? Because the Torah explicitly sets up the relationship between men and sin. The idea that we're slaves to sin is incorrect one. Sin is a result of our action, it does not exist by itself and we are completely responsible for it occurring or not. In other words, sin is a choice. You cannot be freed from a choice, that would negate the whole premise of free will.