Purgatory - in the fires of hell - for the saints??

[ewq1938]

Not at all. Pre-tribs always point to Matthew 24 as being part of the Tribulation. You used those verses also.

So? Matthew 24 is the trib. Post tribs know this. I know of none that deny it.

The context is that Matthew 23 and 24 are dealing with Israel's rejection of Messiah and their destruction as a nation.

None of that is found in Matthew 24.

The Tribulation is therefore Jewish in nature.

It has nothing to do with the Jews except they will be deceived like the rest of the world. The trib is a tribulation against true Christians as I have shown as has not been contested.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name!

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel is Christians delivered by Christians.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


So, the AoD is going to affect the world world and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Ye is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

the elect are Christians not Jews.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christ's given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Some Jews today are Christians.

 

[ewq1938]

Some Jews today are Christians.

Yes but we are talking Jews/Judaism vs. anyone who is Christian and who the tribulation will persecute. It is Christians (of any ethnicity) that is the target of persecution in the tribulation. Jews/Judaism isn't even mentioned yet some think the tribulation is fully against the Jews.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

chapter and verse please where purgatory is mentioned in the Bible?

 

[Light of the East]

chapter and verse please where purgatory is mentioned in the Bible?

1 Corinthians 3: 11-15. This doesn't mention Purgatory, and the Eastern Church does not accept this idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the concept is quite clear in Scripture. Our souls will receive a final cleansing which shall remove all that is not like Christ.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

1 Corinthians 3: 11-15. This doesn't mention Purgatory, and the Eastern Church does not accept this idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the concept is quite clear in Scripture. Our souls will receive a final cleansing which shall remove all that is not like Christ.

Where in Scripture does it say we receive final "cleansing" chapter & verse please...

Each time i repent of my sins and ask God to forgive me i ask to be washed and made clean and whole presentable unto the Father by the Blood of His Son and my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and thats all thats required according to scripture/His Word.

1 Corinthians 3: 11-15. This doesn't mention Purgatory, and the Eastern Church does not accept this idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the concept is quite clear in Scripture. Our souls will receive a final cleansing which shall remove all that is not like Christ.

1 Corinthians 3: 11-15. This doesn't mention Purgatory, and the Eastern Church does not accept this idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the concept is quite clear in Scripture. Our souls will receive a final cleansing which shall remove all that is not like Christ.

Exactly where is it in Scripture though, this final "cleansing" you are talking about?

 

[Light of the East]

Where in Scripture does it say we receive final "cleansing" chapter & verse please...

Each time i repent of my sins and ask God to forgive me i ask to be washed and made clean and whole presentable unto the Father by the Blood of His Son and my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and thats all thats required according to scripture/His Word.


Exactly where is it in Scripture though, this final "cleansing" you are talking about?

I gave you the Scripture.

 

[Light of the East]

Where in Scripture does it say we receive final "cleansing" chapter & verse please...

Each time i repent of my sins and ask God to forgive me i ask to be washed and made clean and whole presentable unto the Father by the Blood of His Son and my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and thats all thats required according to scripture/His Word.


Exactly where is it in Scripture though, this final "cleansing" you are talking about?

Well, since you haven't repented of your rebellion against the Church which Jesus established upon St. Peter, you are certainly going to have to deal with that, aren't you?

Try to imagine that you are standing in front of our Lord now. He doesn't have to say a word. His look - those eyes - convey truth because He is the Truth. And you know, without any words being said, the condition of your soul. People told you the truth of the faith once delivered to the Apostles and rather than listen to them, rather than read the Early Fathers and try to learn the faith once delivered to the saints, you decided that you would rather do what you wanted to do and believe those things that tickled your ears and made you feel good. You defended yourself by claiming that you were following the Bible, when in fact you were following the particular interpretation of the Bible with which you decided to agree.

And now you stand before Him - a naked soul with no excuses, no fancy interpretations of the Bible, nothing to hide behind - and you realize that in your soul, there is still a spirit of rebellion against the Apostolic Faith and all that it taught. This attitude will have to be changed before you can enter into God's presence. You must be humbled to accept that which you formerly rejected in your pride.

And that is what purgation is - the removal of all our inner desires, rebellious spirits, secret sins, and other things which we carry as a stain on our souls. You haven't even submitted yourself to confession to a priest, which is the only legitimate authority for forgiveness of your sins here on earth. If you had a meek and humble spirit, you would submit to the authority which Christ gave to the Apostles to forgive sins (John 20:23) and would join the Church.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Didn't see at 1st but do now, thanks

 

[Postvieww]

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Jesus asked the question “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

This truth that Jesus was the Christ the son of the living God is the rock the church was built on not the person of Peter.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Flesh and blood did not reveal this truth to Peter , the father in heaven revealed this to Peter.

The revelation that Jesus is the son of God is the rock the church is built on.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say he would build His church upon the person of Peter, it is the truth of Christ’s sonship that Peter expressed in answer to Jesus’s question that is the foundation of the church.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Those keys were not given to Peter alone but to all who will believe on Christ.

The whole context of this passage is establishing who Jesus was, not installing Peter as the foundation of the church.



1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the foundation of the Church not Peter.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Jesus being the “chief corner stone” is the rock not Peter.

Jesus was crucified, buried and rose from the dead, and made atonement by His shed blood for our sins, that fact is what the church is built on.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

You are being lied to and deceived by the false prophet Pope Francis and the apostate Catholic man-made religion, Christ completed it all on the Cross, it is finished! We are all sinners and fall short of His Glory not one of us righteous, no not one-- our works are as filthy rags- none of us can ever measure up or work to earn favor or good standing, it's His blood that covers it [sin] all (and completed what we can never do nor possibly ever measure up to) once and for all-- that's what GRACE is-- and BTW Jesus is our High Priest not any man, lest he should boast! And we are not to add to or take away any Words from His Book either Gospel of Christ is pretty simple we dummies here on earth always try and complicate things, go figure...

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Do you believe that those who are going to heaven - must be subjected to the "fires of hell" in Purgatory?

OR do you prefer to think of it more as "Paradise Purgatory" as we see described here - Monday at 11:15 PM #23 ?
(an option that would leave no room for indulgences to have ever been invented).

Either way some key distinctives in Catholic theology come to light in the doctrine of purgatory. Yesterday at 2:50 PM #74

According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.

For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.

Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.

==========================


From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

Father Echert

(more of the same here - Jun 20, 2016 #7 )

One Catholic poster - handed me this -


Note some of the statements made there

"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

And

"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”


Purgatory is about making satisfaction for sins - punishment, not about getting forgiveness. Monday at 11:13 AM #7



=======================================

Heb 9:27 "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die - and then comes judgment" - not "and then comes a second chance and paying for your own sins - then heaven"

=====================================

In that "paradise purgatory" option - link included above - I point to 3 strong reasons that making up such a teaching of purgatory (whether the paradise-purgatory form or the "fires of hell torture" purgatory form) would appeal to some groups.

It appears to have at least three purposes.
1. initially to make revenue off of the fear generated from stories told the living about the departed.
2. To emphasize the discretion and good-graces of the RCC in rescuing/saving the already-saved "if the RCC so wishes".
3. To provide a "wide road" to heaven - where all but the worst "get heaven" no matter their character defects.

(Since 1 Cor 3 came up once or twice on this thread - might be good to look at that text --Today at 1:07 AM #631 )

Why 2 Maccabees 12 does not support Purgatory - Tuesday at 2:18 PM #70

Not so subtle features of the Purgatory doctrine -
Tuesday at 2:50 PM #74

Purgatory is not Biblical. In fact it is the adverse of all , all , that Jesus came to accomplish in the name of the Father and for our souls sake. John 19:30

 

[Albion]

And that is what purgation is - the removal of all our inner desires, rebellious spirits, secret sins, and other things which we carry as a stain on our souls. .

...not according to the particular church that invented Purgatory--the one that you're going on about although you've posted that you're thinking of jumping to another denomination--it isn't.

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

And I ain't waiting for some final "dipping" either-- His blood covers me redeems me makes me presentable and unblemished unto the Father-- TODAY! And He is coming soon too btw or did you not know?! --to snatch us outta here (rapture!) for His TRUE CHURCH, HIS BRIDE, hallelujah!!!

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Luke 12:47, I believe is the scriptural basis for purgatory.
King James Bible
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."
It does not say forever, and God is his Lord. The number of stripes has a limit.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 12:47, I believe is the scriptural basis for purgatory.
King James Bible
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."
It does not say forever, and God is his Lord. The number of stripes has a limit.

As far as I know Luke 12 does not say that those who are beaten will go to heaven.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

As far as I know Luke 12 does not say that those who are beaten will go to heaven.

Where do they go?

 

[BobRyan]

Where do they go?

Matt 10:28 says of those who go to the 2nd death, lake of fire "fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

So then after the wicked are tormented in fire and brimstone - they are "DESTROYed BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins will die"

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Matt 10:28 says of those who go to the 2nd death, lake of fire "fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

So then after the wicked are tormented in fire and brimstone - they are "DESTROYed BOTH body and soul in fiery hell"

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins will die"

It does not make sense, stripes are not fire and brimstone. Not strictly, fire does not follow fire. All of us sin and there is salvation from sin. Jesus advocates to the Father on our behalf when we sin as it is written by John in the letters.
Revelation, mentions a beating from the angels that goes on forever. But that is much more than many stripes!

 

[Albion]

The confusion here appears to be because of the statement that Luke 12 is the basis for the belief in Purgatory. It's not.

There are several different verses that the RCC points to, but the main proof text is found in 2nd Maccabees.