Purgatory - in the fires of hell - for the saints??

[GoldenKingGaze]

In Hebrews 12 God is said to discipline his sons, not satisfaction or fires.

 

[Light of the East]

Our Father does that. What He says is that Jesus paid for all your sins.

He claims that is quite adequate. Some think Jesus needed to pay more.

First of all, the Bible nowhere teaches that. If it did, the first Christians in the first century would have preached that and the historic record is that they did not. Secondly, the idea that the Bible does comes from yanking scriptures out of context. And thirdly, as I posted earlier, it is not about "payment for sins." That is a Western Latin idea which has bled over into Protestantism.

It is about our experiencing freedom from death through Christ's death and being changed ontologically into his likeness.

 

[SkyWriting]

SkyWriting said: ↑
Our Father does that. What He says is that Jesus paid for all your sins.

First of all, the Bible nowhere teaches that. If it did, the first Christians in the first century would have preached that and the historic record is that they did not.
Secondly, the idea that the Bible does comes from yanking scriptures out of context.
And thirdly, as I posted earlier, it is not about "payment for sins." That is a Western Latin idea which has bled over into Protestantism. It is about our experiencing freedom from death through Christ's death and being changed ontologically into his likeness.

I agree that one or two passages can be misunderstood out of context.
So I've looked up more than two on the subject.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Daily Reading for Sunday, January 19th, 2014 - Daily Readings ...

Satan's Lie #3. You're not forgiven and you can't move on
This is the oldest trick in the book. Satan likes to tell you there is no way you deserve to be happy, there is no way you can stand up again after you've fallen and that you have to pay for your sins.

The truth? God paid for our sins long ago, knowing the devil would try to use your sins against you. God tells us over and over in His Word that He has forgiven our sins. http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=64703


1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Colossians 2:10-20 And you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. ...

Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

James 5:14-15 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Galatians 3:13-14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[SkyWriting]

.

 

[-57]

Read my post #855.

Not everything about the Christian life is spelled out A-B-C for us. Some things have to be deduced from metaphors or analogies in Scripture. For instance, King David as a type of Christ. Mary as the New Eve. You have to stop thinking literally and look to deeper understandings in Scripture.

Now, as far as "Purgatory" as a distinct place - no! Absolutely not! That is a fanciful Roman invention which we in the East reject. Where is that place that God is not?

However, as I posted in 855, there is purging of all that is not like Christ when we die. When we come into the presence of God, all that is not like Him will be burned away by the fire of His presence until we are perfected.

And that is scriptural .... 1 Corinthians 3, where it talks about our wood, hay, and stubble being burned away that the gold might shine through.

Mary as the new Eve? Really?

There is no purgatory. If there was the bible would have mentioned it often. In fact the bible doesn't mention it at all.

 

[-57]

• 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, II Maccabees 12:39-46
• You should realize that for Catholics, both Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equally authoritative. In addition to the above Scriptures, we have a wealth of Sacred Tradition. Indeed, were there no Scriptures at all, we would still believe in Purgatory based on Sacred Tradition alone.

That's one point where the Catholic Church errors.

 

[Light of the East]

I agree that one or two passages can be misunderstood out of context.
So I've looked up more than two on the subject.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Daily Reading for Sunday, January 19th, 2014 - Daily Readings ...

Sin of the world. This is a reference to the restoration of the cosmos, in which human beings are included. Makes no mention of "payment."

Satan's Lie #3. You're not forgiven and you can't move on
This is the oldest trick in the book. Satan likes to tell you there is no way you deserve to be happy, there is no way you can stand up again after you've fallen and that you have to pay for your sins.

The truth? God paid for our sins long ago, knowing the devil would try to use your sins against you. God tells us over and over in His Word that He has forgiven our sins. http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=64703

Roman theology is skewed at best because of their heritage. This whole idea of "payment" comes from the Roman legal mindset. Epistomologically it leads to indulgences, penances, time and payment for sins in Purgatory, and the idea of Purgatory itself - all of which we in the East reject out of hand.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

This could mean anything. I'll have to ponder it and look at the context in which it is stated.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Interesting that you should chose this particular verse. Nothing it in mentions "payment" whatsoever, however, what it does mention is the concept of sin as disease and being healed in our natures from that disease, which is a very Eastern concept in understanding Christ's work.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

I admit this is the strongest verse you have given so far. Bought from whom and for what? What kind of buying is this? Again, I want to do a little further study on this.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Again, notice the reference to healing, not payment.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

The word "payment" does not appear in any of the above five verses. You are reading into the text.

Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

Colossians 2:10-20 And you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. ...

Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Romans 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

James 5:14-15 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Galatians 3:13-14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Light of the East]

Mary as the new Eve? Really?

Since Jesus is the Last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), we can see by this title that the work of the Cross has restored the Garden from the damage the Fall did. Adam is restored in the man, Jesus of Nazareth.

So who else would qualify to replace Eve? I don't see any other woman with the necessary qualities.

There is no Purgatory. If there was the bible would have mentioned it often. In fact the bible doesn't mention it at all.

That's because there is no such place. There is, however, purging from our sins as we encounter God and are changed into His likeness. Scripture states that our God is a burning fire. That passionate fire of love will burn away all the dross of our sinful selves, and it will hurt! But it is necessary in order to be completely changed into His image.

 

[Light of the East]

Our Father does that. What He says is that Jesus paid for all your sins.
He claims that is quite adequate. Some think Jesus needed to pay more.

Once again ... it is not about payment. It is about changing whom we are.

 

[SkyWriting]

Once again ... it is not about payment. It is about changing whom we are.

The change comes after the sins are all paid for and you say Thanks!
Sin only exist after you repent.
Change not come before sin forgiven by God.

-by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands.
-Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins,
-Who gave himself as a ransom for all
-You were bought with a price


Then:
...one who receives forgiveness for and cleansing of one’s own sins, can be free and capable of building a free, independent, well-to-do and flowering nation. (change)

 

[SkyWriting]

Once again ... it is not about payment. It is about changing whom we are.

Each passage says the deal is over and done. Not first aid or medicine or ointment or therapy.

 

[Light of the East]

Each passage says the deal is over and done. Not first aid or medicine or ointment or therapy.

Okay. Now I am getting it.

Here's the problem you are having. Remember that there were two types of priesthood in the Old Covenant - the regular priesthood of the Levites and the high priesthood. They were for two distinct and different types of sin - the Levites for individual sins and the high priest for the sins of the congregation, or the whole body of believers.

Christ is identified as our Great High Priest. As such, yes, the work He has done on behalf of mankind as high priest, restoring mankind as a whole to union with God so that eternal life with God is possible, is finished. That is once and done, just as in the Old Covenant, the once a year sacrifice was not repeated throughout the year. The difference is that now the Yom Kippur for mankind is done forever once upon the Cross.

But that does not mean that our personal sins are "once and done paid for." No. When you sin, you have to confess it to be restored to a state of union and friendship with God, especially if it is a matter of serious sin. This is why the Apostles were given the priesthood and the ability to forgive sins in John 20:23.

The Protestant idea of making a one-time confession of sin when you "accept Jesus" is not scriptural and does not fit the paradigm of a covenant relationship.

So yes, you are right - mankind's sin as a whole is taken care of, and you are wrong, our personal sins still have to be confessed, and we still have to grow in Christlikeness, which is what the grace of Confession helps us to do. All of the Orthodox faith is about growing into godlikeness, using the means that God has given to us - the Sacraments.

 

[SkyWriting]

Okay. Now I am getting it.

Here's the problem you are having. Remember that there were two types of priesthood in the Old Covenant - the regular priesthood of the Levites and the high priesthood. They were for two distinct and different types of sin - the Levites for individual sins and the high priest for the sins of the congregation, or the whole body of believers.

Christ is identified as our Great High Priest. As such, yes, the work He has done on behalf of mankind as high priest, restoring mankind as a whole to union with God so that eternal life with God is possible, is finished. That is once and done, just as in the Old Covenant, the once a year sacrifice was not repeated throughout the year. The difference is that now the Yom Kippur for mankind is done forever once upon the Cross.

But that does not mean that our personal sins are "once and done paid for." No. When you sin, you have to confess it to be restored to a state of union and friendship with God, especially if it is a matter of serious sin. This is why the Apostles were given the priesthood and the ability to forgive sins in John 20:23.

The Protestant idea of making a one-time confession of sin when you "accept Jesus" is not scriptural and does not fit the paradigm of a covenant relationship.

So yes, you are right - mankind's sin as a whole is taken care of, and you are wrong, our personal sins still have to be confessed, and we still have to grow in Christlikeness, which is what the grace of Confession helps us to do. All of the Orthodox faith is about growing into godlikeness, using the means that God has given to us - the Sacraments.

God didn't create any Sacraments.
You did that.


Likely you don't wash each others feet at your place.
That's a big deal among my peeps.

 

[Light of the East]

God didn't create any Sacraments.
You did that.

No, the Sacraments are part of the covenant of God. If you understood a covenant and how it works, you would understand the need for Sacraments.

Jesus gave the Eucharist in the Upper Room.

Circumcision became Baptism.

The first Christians understood these things and practiced them as Sacraments. How is it that you think you, who are 2000 years removed from Jesus and the Apostles, understand the nature of the Christian faith better than they did?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God's discipline gives a harvest of righteousness and peace. Not burns injury. Discipline must be fully worked. Peter was disciplined for denying Jesus.This is after He shed his powerful blood.

 

[SkyWriting]

God didn't create any Sacraments.
You did that.
No, the Sacraments are part of the covenant of God. If you understood a covenant and how it works, you would understand the need for Sacraments.Jesus gave the Eucharist in the Upper Room.Circumcision became Baptism.The first Christians understood these things and practiced them as Sacraments. How is it that you think you, who are 2000 years removed from Jesus and the Apostles, understand the nature of the Christian faith better than they did?

No scripture references at all.
We do feet washing. 2000 years removed you may
think it was a big deal too.
I don't remember a room.
Are you spelling that correctly?

Bible Search
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1 Kings 17:23 Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from ...
... Then Elijah brought him down from the upper room and gave him
to his mother. "Look!" he said. "Your son is alive ...
//biblehub.com/1_kings/17-23.htm - 17k


Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been ...
... The windows in its upper room opened toward Jerusalem, and three times a day he
got down on his knees, prayed, and gave thanks to his God, just as he had done ...
//biblehub.com/daniel/6-10.htm - 18k


2 Kings 4:11 One day when Elisha came, he went up to his room and ...
... One day Elisha returned to Shunem, and he went up to this upper room to rest. ... One
day Elisha came for a visit; he went into the upper room and rested. ...

 

[Light of the East]

No scripture references at all.
We do feet washing. 2000 years removed you may
think it was a big deal too.
I don't remember a room.
Are you spelling that correctly?

Just curious. Do you believe there is such a thing as "the Rapture of the Church?"

Just wondering.

There is no command to do foot washing and it certainly isn't sacramental in nature. Nor does it have anything to do with God's covenant and our covenant relationship to Him.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just curious. Do you believe there is such a thing as "the Rapture of the Church?"Just wondering.There is no command to do foot washing and it certainly isn't sacramental in nature. Nor does it have anything to do with God's covenant and our covenant relationship to Him.

Sure. But 2000 years from now they will think
it was a big deal and be scrubbing each other's toes.

The rapture is not well supported but agrees with
earlier jewish ideas.

 

[Light of the East]

The rapture is not well supported but agrees with
earlier jewish ideas.

Funny, when I type in the word "rapture" in the word search of Blue Letter Bible --- nothing!

 

[ewq1938]

God's discipline gives a harvest of righteousness and peace. Not burns injury. Discipline must be fully worked. Peter was disciplined for denying Jesus.

What discipline did he face?