Purgatory - in the fires of hell - for the saints??

Do you believe the elect suffer the fires of hell in purgatory after they die

  • No - because the doctrine of Purgatory goes against Bible teaching about the Gospel

    Votes: 44 62.9%
  • Yes - because it is in the tradition of the Catholic Church

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes - because it is taught in the Bible and by the Catholic church

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 4.3%
  • other

    Votes: 14 20.0%

  • Total voters
    70

ewq1938

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Funny, when I type in the word "rapture" in the word search of Blue Letter Bible --- nothing!

That's because Rapture is an English word and the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for Rapture is Harpazo:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be <b>caught up</b> HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.
 
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Light of the East

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That's because Rapture is an English word and the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for Rapture is Harpazo:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be <b>caught up</b> HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.

Nice try. You missed the entire point I was trying to make. SkyWriting is trying to say that the word "Eucharist" is not in scripture and I was pointing out that neither is the word "rapture." He's trying for the ole "sola scriptura end-around play" but I was trying to show him that he is not consistent with what he is saying.

There is no "rapture" coming in the future. Already happened in AD 70 when the New Covenant officially ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of Christ's sitting on the Judgment Seat. But that's a discussion for another thread and another time, eh?
 
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ewq1938

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Nice try. You missed the entire point I was trying to make. SkyWriting is trying to say that the word "Eucharist" is not in scripture and I was pointing out that neither is the word "rapture."

The word rapture is in scripture as I have proven.



There is no "rapture" coming in the future.

Yes there is. Paul specifically places it after the second coming and resurrection of the dead which necessitates that it is yet future.

.
 
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Light of the East

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The word rapture is in scripture as I have proven.





Yes there is. Paul specifically places it after the second coming and resurrection of the dead which necessitates that it is yet future.

.

As a Preterist, I would disagree, of course.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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What discipline did he face?
Peter was asked three times by Jesus, "Do you love me?" Then Peter was told how he must die to honour God. What if Peter loved God but waivered in obedience and was killed before he got back on track into obedience? Would he simply go to Heaven?
 
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ewq1938

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As a Preterist, I would disagree, of course.


Doesn't change where Paul placed it though.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
 
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ewq1938

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Peter was asked three times by Jesus, "Do you love me?" Then Peter was told how he must die to honour God. What if Peter loved God but waivered in obedience and was killed before he got back on track into obedience? Would he simply go to Heaven?

You claimed that Peter was disciplined for denying Christ. Please provide the scriptural evidence of that.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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You claimed that Peter was disciplined for denying Christ. Please provide the scriptural evidence of that.
It was only several hours before that Peter had assured Jesus he would die for Him and then slept when he needed to pray, awoke to find Jesus being arrested, he followed but denied Jesus three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed as he was warned. So the last thing Peter did in sight of Jesus before the post resurrection scene was to deny Jesus three times. Then Jesus asks him three times, "Do you love me?" Peter was disturbed. Each time he answered Jesus asked him to feed his sheep or lambs. Then Jesus warned him about how he would die. Hardship that would give Peter peace in word giving and meaning he loved Jesus even to die for Him.

Also when John the Baptist's father met the angel in the temple but doubted, he was disciplined, when close to God there is more responsibility. Later he regained speech.

By interpretation, Peter was disciplined. And by tradition died on a cross and now has peace in glory.
 
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ewq1938

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It was only several hours before that Peter had assured Jesus he would die for Him and then slept when he needed to pray, awoke to find Jesus being arrested, he followed but denied Jesus three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed as he was warned. So the last thing Peter did in sight of Jesus before the post resurrection scene was to deny Jesus three times. Then Jesus asks him three times, "Do you love me?" Peter was disturbed. Each time he answered Jesus asked him to feed his sheep or lambs. Then Jesus warned him about how he would die. Hardship that would give Peter peace in word giving and meaning he loved Jesus even to die for Him.

Also when John the Baptist's father met the angel in the temple but doubted, he was disciplined, when close to God there is more responsibility. Later he regained speech.

By interpretation, Peter was disciplined.


I see no disciplining at all thusfar. You have shown nothing from scripture for this claim. I'm going to reject the claim. Peter was NOT disciplined for denying Christ.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I see no disciplining at all thusfar. You have shown nothing from scripture for this claim. I'm going to reject the claim. Peter was NOT disciplined for denying Christ.
So Christ Jesus just let it go in your view?
One normally considers discipline to be a father giving a child the belt or grounding. What did the angel give John's father?
How about we make a poll?
 
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ewq1938

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So Christ Jesus just let it go in your view?


Apparently since there is nothing in the bible about him being disciplined. Clearly Christ already foreknew Peter's fears and did not hold it against him.
 
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ewq1938

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"Clearly"? Where does it say Christ used His insight to find Peter's fears and such?


I say that because Christ did not discipline him so it's clear he was understanding of Peter's limitations.

It was you that claimed Peter was disciplined which wasn't true.
 
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Light of the East

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Doesn't change where Paul placed it though.

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)

AD 70

2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)

Yup. AD 70. Christ returns, sits as Judge, the dead are judged.

3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

Is this a physical or spiritual being "caught up?" We know that something changes.

This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

The Tribulation of Matthew 24 is a specifically Jewish event concerning the nation of Israel. Therefore, it must have already happened, according to the timeline in Matthew 24: 1-3
 
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Doesn't change where Paul placed it though.

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)

AD 70


Ad 70 wasn't the trib because the trib is against Christians not Jews.



2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)

Yup. AD 70. Christ returns, sits as Judge, the dead are judged.


Christ did not return in Ad 70. Full Preterism is heresy.


3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

Is this a physical or spiritual being "caught up?" We know that something changes.


It doesn't change it is a physical catching up.



This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

The Tribulation of Matthew 24 is a specifically Jewish event concerning the nation of Israel.


It is not Jewish in the slightest.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints are Christians not Jews! The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.





Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name!

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel is Christians delivered by Christians.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


So, the AoD is going to affect the world world and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Ye is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

the elect are Christians not Jews.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christ's given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all.
 
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Light of the East

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Nothing about Jews at all.

Matthew 23 and 24 are addressed to the nation of Israel. Notice that it is the Temple which is destroyed.

Yes, it is about the end of the Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem
 
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ewq1938

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Matthew 23 and 24 are addressed to the nation of Israel. Notice that it is the Temple which is destroyed.

Yes, it is about the end of the Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem


You avoided dealing with the content of my post which proves the discourse and trib are not related to Israel at all.
 
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You avoided dealing with the content of my post which proves the discourse and trib are not related to Israel at all.

Not at all. Pre-tribs always point to Matthew 24 as being part of the Tribulation. You used those verses also.

The context is that Matthew 23 and 24 are dealing with Israel's rejection of Messiah and their destruction as a nation.

The Tribulation is therefore Jewish in nature.
 
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