Public beheadings in Saudi Arabia

[PACKY]

FORGIVENESS................................


BLESSED ARE THE MERCIFUL FOR THEY WILL SEE THE FACE OF GOD.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I was simply saying the use of force is justified if it is for good. Some peoeple were contending that we should just let criminals run wild, and we shouldn't be able to defend ourselves or our families if they were physically threatened..force can be countered with force.

I didn't see anyone contending that, James.

You are the one who brought up the topic of self defense. Self defense involves different considerations than capital punishment. They are worth discussing, but not here. Again, I invite you to start another thread and post a link. No one but you has made an argument that applies to both capital punishment and self defense.

 

[jamesrwright3]

I didn't see anyone contending that, James.

You are the one who brought up the topic of self defense. Self defense involves different considerations than capital punishment. They are worth discussing, but not here. Again, I invite you to start another thread and post a link. No one but you has made an argument that applies to both capital punishment and self defense.

Well go back through all of the posts. It was a topic.

 

[SolomonVII]

This thread is moving at a very fast pace, so I am reposting this question because I am very curious what the answers will be:

How about this...for any Christian who supports the DP by virtue of guilt, why do they accept Salvation?

The task before us has always been to find the balance between justice and mercy, to maintain a sense of societal righteousness without ourselves becoming self-righteous in that very process.

The message of radical love and mercy that Jesus brought with him during his ministry was never meant to negate the Law, but to fulfill it.

Does this radical love and mercy negate the need for the death penalty?

Perhaps.
Eye for an eye justice, burning witches, and other aspects of the Old Testament Law have indeed become passe with increases in our knowledge about the mechanics of this world and human psychology.

But then again, perhaps not.

Is it the intended message of Jesus that he would leave the 99 unlost sheep at risk in the wilderness as the radical love of this Good Shephard impels Him to go actively seek after and save the lost one?

This too is unlikely, imho.

There is that balance, that golden mean that is always to be sought.

Righteousness would have us working with God to make this a world fitting for His Son to rule. Self-righteousness would havre us actually believing that the depravity of the damned would somehow make us more worthy of salvation.

There will always be a need for justice, and a need for the God's Law (that goes far beyond a literal reading of every tribal prescription of the OT, by the way).

That doesn't mean we have to always like it when justice is leveled against transgressors, or that we should revel in justice by placing the disembodied heads of the criminal onto fence posts to be mocked even unto death.

Nor does it mean we can be indifferent to the cries for justice by the martyrs and the victims of humans' inhumanity to our own kind.

 

[Silly_Dilly_Goose]

People that cause evil and vile crimes deserve to be publically beheaded. I wish it were like that in America.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

People that cause evil and vile crimes deserve to be publically beheaded. I wish it were like that in America.

Don't feed it, it will just come back for more...

 

[k]

People that cause evil and vile crimes deserve to be publically beheaded. I wish it were like that in America.

*warning: approaching sarcasm* Then we can bring popcorn, fold up chairs, and have ourselves a good ole time throwing away about 12,000 years of lessons from human history.

Seriously, would that position apply to people like Kenneth Lay and others who were responsible for Enron?

 

[Ninja Turtles]

*warning: approaching sarcasm* Then we can bring popcorn, fold up chairs, and have ourselves a good ole time throwing away about 12,000 years of lessons from human history.

Seriously, would that position apply to people like Kenneth Lay and others who were responsible for Enron?

RAWR! * sounds like Chewbacca *

Don't feed it, I warned you.

 

[seebs]

Nope, it wasn't my argument. I would never make such an argument.

Your argument was:

People know when they are commiting a premediated murder that there could be potentially serious consequences for their actions. They should be thinking ahead about that instead of plotting the murder.

This makes no sense at all. It can only be peripherally related to the death penalty debate if we are using their knowledge of it as some kind of justification.

 

[seebs]

I didn't see anyone contending that, James.

You are the one who brought up the topic of self defense. Self defense involves different considerations than capital punishment. They are worth discussing, but not here. Again, I invite you to start another thread and post a link. No one but you has made an argument that applies to both capital punishment and self defense.

Actually, I think he's probably talking about my responses.

I agree that the cases are different, but a good case can be made against the use of force in self-defense, too; this makes it a bad choice of slippery slope.

But there was some brief digression into it.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

That doesn't mean we have to always like it when justice is leveled against transgressors, or that we should revel in justice by placing the disembodied heads of the criminal onto fence posts to be mocked even unto death. Nor does it mean we can be indifferent to the cries for justice by the martyrs and the victims of humans' inhumanity to our own kind.

Fine.
We don’t revel in it, we don’t like it, don’t enjoy it, but hey...we’ve still got to do it because …???
Do you really think that the victims of inhumanity cry out for more inhumanity in the warped belief that this extracts "justice"?

 

[jamesrwright3]

Your argument was:

This makes no sense at all. It can only be peripherally related to the death penalty debate if we are using their knowledge of it as some kind of justification.

My argument was contained in my previous postings. I am not going to go back through them all. The DP is justifiable on a number of fronts. You are probably very familar with the arguments of DP proponents.No need to rehash the basics.

And it does make sense. People should think long and hard before taking the life of another innocent human being, and realize the seriousness of their actions. Hopefully they won't do it, and that is one benefit of having the DP in society.And if they do take a life in cold blood, then they should be prepared to face the consequences.

 

[seebs]

My argument was contained in my previous postings. I am not going to go back through them all. The DP is justifiable on a number of fronts. You are probably very familar with the arguments of DP proponents.No need to rehash the basics.

There are many arguments. I believe there are no valid justifications consistent with Christian theology. (Actually, there might be some in a much poorer and/or lower-tech society than ours.)

And it does make sense. People should think long and hard before taking the life of another innocent human being, and realize the seriousness of their actions. Hopefully they won't do it, and that is one benefit of having the DP in society.And if they do take a life in cold blood, then they should be prepared to face the consequences.

This is a deterrent argument phrased in a way that makes it general and wrong. This would support applying the death penalty to anything we wish to discourage; it will make people think before doing it.

In fact, it doesn't appear to make much difference. Maybe a little -- but more reliable smaller sentences have a much greater deterrent effect, and result in fewer innocent people being killed by the state.

Your argument "works" equally well if we set the consequences for premeditated murder to "a cream pie in the face". People need to be willing to face the consequences.

It doesn't show why one consequence is a better choice than another.

 

[SolomonVII]

Fine.
We don’t revel in it, we don’t like it, don’t enjoy it, but hey...we’ve still got to do it because …???

[/font]

... a breakdown in the social order will lead to consequences the most vile and depraved rising to the top.

People will chose even bad law such as Sharia after over total anarchy.

Do you really think that the victims of inhumanity cry out for more inhumanity in the warped belief that this extracts "justice"?

Whatever.

 

[jamesrwright3]

This is a deterrent argument phrased in a way that makes it general and wrong. This would support applying the death penalty to anything we wish to discourage; it will make people think before doing it.

Nope, not wrong and DP should only apply to taking the life of another human being. I would not support it for any other reason. and If people realize that they may lose their own life if they kill someone in cold blood, it may have the desired effect of preventing it from happening.

In fact, it doesn't appear to make much difference. Maybe a little -- but more reliable smaller sentences have a much greater deterrent effect, and result in fewer innocent people being killed by the state.

I think you may mean less harsh sentences, not smaller ones. Anyone who is convicted of murder 1 should at the very minimum never see the light of day.
And there can be reforms to the justice system, especially in capital cases, to help prevent innocent people from being executed.

Your argument "works" equally well if we set the consequences for premeditated murder to "a cream pie in the face". People need to be willing to face the consequences.

No because some people would get a kick out of getting a pie in the face, and even if they didn't, they could wash it off and go on the merry way. . People don't like dying.

 

[praying]

I am not going to go back through them all. The DP is justifiable on a number of fronts.

Well let's say it is justifiable, (I don't happen eto think so but moving past that) that still does not adddress the crux of the issue with it which is; wrongful convictions and the potential for executing the wrong person:


Cases of Innocence

1. David Keaton Florida Conviction 1971 Charges Dismissed 1973
On the basis of mistaken identification and coerced confessions, Keaton was sentenced to death for murdering an off duty deputy sheriff during a robbery. The State Supreme Court reversed the conviction and granted Keaton a new trial because of newly discovered evidence. Charges were dropped and he was released after the actual killer was identified and convicted. (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)).



. Wilbert Lee Florida Conviction 1963 Pardoned 1975
4. Freddie Pitts Florida Conviction 1963 Pardoned 1975
Although no physical evidence linked them to the deaths of two white men, Lee and Pitts' guilty pleas, the testimony of an alleged eyewitness, and incompetent defense counsel led to their convictions. The men were sentenced to death but maintained their innocence. After their convictions, another man confessed to the crime, the eyewitness recanted her accusations, and the state Attorney General admitted that the state had unlawfully suppressed evidence. The men were granted a new trial (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971)) but were again convicted and sentenced to death. They were released in 1975 when they received a full pardon from Governor Askew, who stated he was "sufficiently convinced that they were innocent." (Florida Times-Union, 4/23/98).
5. James Creamer Georgia Conviction 1973 Charges Dismissed 1975
Creamer was sentenced to death for a murder allegedly committed with six other individuals who were sentenced to life. (Cobb Superior Court, Cobb County, Georgia, Certified record) After an investigation by the Atlanta Constitution, a federal judge declared that the prosecution had withheld and destroyed evidence, a witness admitted she had lied in court, and another man confessed to the crimes (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). The convictions against all seven men were overturned, and charges were later dropped. An appellate judge in a related case stated that all seven individuals in this case were sentenced to life. The Clerk of the Cobb Superior Court has certified that Creamer alone was originally sentenced to death. Creamer was resentenced to life in prison in September 1973.


6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina Convicted 1973 Acquitted 1975
In 1975, a North Carolina jury acquitted Christopher Spicer of the murder of Donnie P. Christian. Spicer was convicted of the crime in September 1973, but the conviction was overturned the following year by the North Carolina Supreme Court. (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). At Spicer's trial, the State offered the testimony of Charles Pennington, a jailhouse snitch. Although the defense introduced two witnesses who testified that Pennington and Spicer were never cell mates, Pennington testified that Spicer admitted to the crime while he and Spicer shared a cell. After sharing this "confession" with police, Pennington's bond was reduced from $5,000 to $400 and he was released from jail.
In overturning Spicer's conviction, the North Carolina Supreme Court held that the trial judge committed reversible error by not allowing defense counsel to cross examine Pennington "to discover whom the witness was indebted for such favors and to ascertain to what extent the favors colored his testimony against Spicer." Id. at 646. Defense counsel tried to question Pennington as to who was paying the living expenses of Pennington and his wife, neither of whom was working at the time.
The court also found that the trial court committed reversible error when it "succeeded in pressuring the defendant and his counsel into withdrawing the request for an appropriate instruction" with regard to how the jury should scrutinize the testimony of another witness for the State, Bertie Brailford. (Id. at 648). At Spicer's retrial, the jury took only 15 minutes to unanimously acquit him. (Wilmington Morning Star, February 21, 1975).

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1976
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7. Thomas Gladish New Mexico Conviction 1974 Charges Dismissed 1976
8. Richard Greer New Mexico Conviction 1974 Charges Dismissed 1976
9. Ronald Keine New Mexico Conviction 1974 Charges Dismissed 1976
10. Clarence Smith New Mexico Conviction 1974 Charges Dismissed 1976
The four were convicted of murder, kidnapping, sodomy, and rape and were sentenced to death. A subsequent investigation by the Detroit News uncovered lies by the prosecution's star witness, perjured identification given under police pressure, and the use of poorly administered lie detector tests. A state district judge dismissed the original indictments and the men were released after the murder weapon was traced to a drifter from South Carolina who admitted to the killing. (Detroit News Magazine, 1/11/76 and Detroit News, 12/16/75).



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1977
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11. Delbert Tibbs Florida Conviction 1974 Charges Dismissed 1977
Tibbs was sentenced to death for the rape of a sixteen-year-old white girl and the murder of her companion. Tibbs, a black theological student, was convicted by an all-white jury on the testimony of the female victim whose testimony was uncorroborated and inconsistent with her first description of her assailant. The conviction was overturned by the Florida Supreme Court because the verdict was not supported by the weight of the evidence, and the state decided not to retry the case. Tibbs' former prosecutor said that the original investigation had been tainted from the beginning and that if there was a retrial, he would appear as a witness for Tibbs. (Tibbs v. State, 337 So.2d 788 (Fla. 1976)).



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1978
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12. Earl Charles Georgia Conviction 1975 Charges Dismissed 1978
Charles was convicted on two counts of murder and sentenced to death. He was released when evidence was found that substantiated his alibi. (State v. Charles, No. 23,392 (Ga. Super. Ct., 7/5/78)). After an investigation, the district attorney announced that he would not retry the case. Charles won a substantial settlement from city officials for misconduct in the original investigation.
13. Jonathan Treadaway Arizona Conviction 1975 Acquitted 1978
Treadaway was convicted of sodomy and first degree murder of a six-year-old and sentenced to death. The conviction was overturned, and he was acquitted of all charges at retrial by the jury after 5 pathologists testified that the victim probably died of natural causes and that there was no evidence of sodomy. Members of the jury reported noted that prosecutors had failed to prove that Treadaway was even inside the victims' home. (State v. Treadaway, 568 P.2d 1061 (1977))


88. Frank Lee Smith Florida Convicted 1985 Charges Dismissed 2000
Frank Lee Smith, who had been convicted of a 1985 rape and murder of an 8-year-old girl, and who died of cancer in January 2000 while still on death row, was cleared of these charges by DNA testing, according to an aide to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. After the trial, the chief eyewitness recanted her testimony. Nevertheless, Smith was scheduled for execution in 1990, but received a stay. Prosecutor Carolyn McCann was told by the FBI lab which conducted the DNA tests that: "He has been excluded. He didn't do it." Another man, who is currently in a psychiatric facility, is now the main suspect. (Washington Post, 12/15/00 (AP) and St. Petersburg Times (Florida) 12/15/00).

WHEREAS, considering the totality of the circumstances, a gross miscarriage of justice occurred, and agents of the state and local law enforcement officials cooperated in that miscarriage, either negligently or deliberately

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/data/session/2001/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s0292.pdf#search='Frank%20Lee%20Smith'

 

[seebs]

What a strange question. What does instituting justice in a society by the state have to do with eternal life and theosis?

Everything.

 

[k]

Everything.

I love the direct and succinct responses!!

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

I love the direct and succinct responses!!

Whatever.

Oh well, some of them are more lovable than others.

 

[SolomonVII]

Sorry if my answer left you feeling unloved Chrysalis Kat.
But my post was first post was adressed to Neverstop, and your response to that seemed more geared to being argumentative and inflammatory (ie implying that my views were warped).
And really, your response demonstrated no real understanding of what I had posted in the first place anyway.