Public beheadings in Saudi Arabia

[Chrysalis Kat]

Sorry if my answer left you feeling unloved Chrysalis Kat.
But my post was first post was adressed to Neverstop, and your response to that seemed more geared to being argumentative and inflammatory (ie implying that my views were warped).
And really, your response demonstrated no real understanding of what I had posted in the first place anyway.

I asked you specific questions. Questions that you flatly refused to address. I and everyone else realize that it would it have been difficult for you to do so without owning up to the fallacies that run rampant throughout your arguments.

 

[k]

Sorry if my answer left you feeling unloved Chrysalis Kat.
But my post was first post was adressed to Neverstop, and your response to that seemed more geared to being argumentative and inflammatory (ie implying that my views were warped).
And really, your response demonstrated no real understanding of what I had posted in the first place anyway.

I didn't respond to the post because every argument it contained had already been addressed and re-re-re-re-re-re-addressed within the 48 pages of the thread.

More often than not, facts have been flat out ignored (not saying "you" have done this, but just in general) and quite frankly, it's just too draining on me emotionally to try and have honest Christ-seeking dialogue when facts are not addressed.

The latest set of facts have been posted by Mhatten, and those were ignored by DP proponents, or at best, shoved aside.

I don't think I have what it takes for these types of debates.

 

[SolomonVII]

I didn't respond to the post because every argument it contained had already been addressed and re-re-re-re-re-re-addressed within the 48 pages of the thread.

More often than not, facts have been flat out ignored (not saying "you" have done this, but just in general) and quite frankly, it's just too draining on me emotionally to try and have honest Christ-seeking dialogue when facts are not addressed.

The latest set of facts have been posted by Mhatten, and those were ignored by DP proponents, or at best, shoved aside.

I don't think I have what it takes for these types of debates.

I never read the 48 pages of this thread. I read the first pages at the time the thread first appeared, not much of interest, and out of curiosity, the last few to see what gave this thread wings.
Your question was of some interet to me, as it seemed pertinent to a book that I was reading on the parables of Jesus, and the struggles between balancing the law and the need for justice with mercy.

As for whether or not someone responds to what I write, it is not a big concern for me. I tend to write for my own understanding more than anything else. If what I write intrigues someone's interest enough to respond back, great; if not it is unlikely that I'll knock on their door again.

As for getting drawn into a flame war, or arguing rather than discussing, it is just a waste of time.

And as for Mhatten's list of innocent victims of the death penalty, the first thing that I noticed was that Jesus was not included.
(Although I have seen some Jews make the case that he was breaking both civil and religious laws when he trashed their temple).

 

[praying]

I
And as for Mhatten's list of innocent victims of the death penalty, the first thing that I noticed was that Jesus was not included.

Well why would I list Jesus when the discussion is the DP in America here and now? Besides "my" list is a list I copied and pasted some names from on the provided link. Also to be correct they were not victims of the death penalty they were people wrongfully convicted and subsequently exonerated unfortunatley for Frank Lee Smith the wheels of justice moved to slow and he died in prison, thanks to as the Florida legislature put it a "gross and negligent miscarriage of justice"

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Jesse Tafero is a victim of wrongful execution.

 

[TwinCrier]

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
​

 

[christalee4]

Re Indy quote: DEATH PENALTY PERMITTED

Afghanistan
Bahrain
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Egypt
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Libya
Morocco
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States of America
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Zimbabwe

Yes, this greatest country in the world, the richest, wealthiest, most progressive (and I say that somewhat sarcastically) keeps really good company in the death penalty department. I would bet every country also tortures or condones torture as well.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Explain what you just wrote. If you're going to put a biblical verse, it's like an essay you write for school. Textual support requires analysis and explanation.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
​

What do you mean?

Are you using this verse to justify "collateral damage"?
And if you are, how far are you willing to take this "collateral damage" thing?

 

[christianfilmcrew]

Okay I just tried to read through every page of posts and got about 1/2 way through...

All this discussion and so far I have seen no mention of this:

Jesus already paid the death penalty!!!

Every one of the 10 commandments that we break we are *all* guilty and deserve the death penalty.

The penalty for sin is *death*

It is by God's grace that every one of us is here. Did you lust after that woman today? Jesus defines it as adultery, as you have lusted after her in your heart. Did you take that pencil from work today? That makes you a thief...

According to the 10 commandments you are guilty of sin, and the penalty for sin is death. Murder is sin in God's eyes and He sees it exactly the same way as he views the fact that you flipped off that driver today or cursed someone under your breath! He who is without sin cast the first stone!

God said in His word in the *new covenant* do not judge or you will be judged. For he who judges condemns himself because he is doing the same things...

Have you ever hated someone? That's murdering someone in your heart and you are guilty of sin, and you are condemned to death under God's law...

God said, "Judgement is Mine, I will repay"...

Before anyone discusses this further, I challenge you to take the good person test...

http://www.livingwaters.com/needGod/

Then come back and post a reply after that...

I encourage everyone to have a closer look at the Bible in it's entirety...

 

[christianfilmcrew]

Ooo this one I like and I think everyone needs to consider...

"He who hates his brother is a Murderer" - 1 John 3:15

God doesn't want anyone to perish. He is rich in mercy and compassion, and has provided a way for everyone to be forgiven. He has invited everyone to come to Him for a full pardon and receive the gift of Eternal Life. You cannot earn it, and you do not deserve it, but God is offering it to everyone as proof of His love for every one of us.

Imagine you are standing in front of a judge, guilty of multiple serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. Your apologies cannot erase your crimes; therefore you must be punished. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you don't have two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence when someone you don't even know steps in and pays your fine for you! The court accepts the money and declares that you are free to go. The law has been satisfied, your debt has been paid in full, and the stranger's sacrifice was a demonstration of his love for you. That's what God did for you 2000 years ago...

The Bible says that the God of the Universe became a man (Jesus Christ), and suffered and died on the cross for your sins and mine so that we could be set free. It's as simple as this - we broke the law, and Jesus paid our fine.

"God demonstrated His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us." Galations 3:13

I cannot personally stand behind the death penalty because the price has been paid for that murderer's life, the price has also been paid for our lies, lust, coveteousness and whatever other commandment we have broken. We are no worse than the murderer and everyone has hated someone at some point, which makes us all murderers in God's eyes (as per His Word)...

I do find it interesting that of all the nations I have visited as a missionary, the ones with the lowest violent crime rates are the ones without the death penalty... Why is that? Could it be that grace and love is demonstrated, just the same way God demonstrated to us? Even being a parent involves positive re-inforcement which works a whole lot better than capital punishment...

 

[ClaireZ]

My argument was contained in my previous postings. I am not going to go back through them all. The DP is justifiable on a number of fronts. You are probably very familar with the arguments of DP proponents.No need to rehash the basics.

And it does make sense. People should think long and hard before taking the life of another innocent human being, and realize the seriousness of their actions. Hopefully they won't do it, and that is one benefit of having the DP in society.And if they do take a life in cold blood, then they should be prepared to face the consequences.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of those held in Death Penalty cases are not the type who are going to think long and hard about anything, let alone some possibility of getting a lethal injection 15 years or so into the future.

The Death Penalty serves no deterrant.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

What do you mean?

Are you using this verse to justify "collateral damage"?
And if you are, how far are you willing to take this "collateral damage" thing?

Bump.


TwinCrier, can you answer, please.

 

[TwinCrier]

"Collateral Damage" is a nice catch phrase, kinda like accusing someone who disagrees with you of being a bigot, hateful, Nazi, Terrorist, etc, it provokes a response, but avoids the issue of the debate. I equate it with telling someone to "shut up."
This is about being fair. To claim that a justified punishment equal to the crime is actually unjust doesn't make sense, and I can't comprehend why anyone would argue against what is fair and just.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

"Collateral Damage" is a nice catch phrase, kinda like accusing someone who disagrees with you of being a bigot, hateful, Nazi, Terrorist, etc, it provokes a response, but avoids the issue of the debate. I equate it with telling someone to "shut up."

That is hogwash. I'm asking about THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN FALSELY ACCUSED AND SENTENCED TO DEATH. You are the one avoiding the issue.

This is about being fair. To claim that a justified punishment equal to the crime is actually unjust doesn't make sense, and I can't comprehend why anyone would argue against what is fair and just.

So you are saying that those who have been falsely accused and sentenced to death are just collateral damage, then?

Semantics aside, that sure is what I'm reading from you. How else should I describe your callous disregard for the innocents who are wrongfully executed by the State?

 

[Ninja Turtles]

"Collateral Damage" is a nice catch phrase, kinda like accusing someone who disagrees with you of being a bigot, hateful, Nazi, Terrorist, etc, it provokes a response, but avoids the issue of the debate. I equate it with telling someone to "shut up."
This is about being fair. To claim that a justified punishment equal to the crime is actually unjust doesn't make sense, and I can't comprehend why anyone would argue against what is fair and just.

The only person that seems to be avoiding an answer is you. You have yet to speak on the issue of wrongful execution. There was a list of people that were wrongfully executed and you ignore everything and say they're all guilty, that makes no sense. This discussion has revolved around people wronfully executed, but you keep taking the position that they're not, yet you give no reasoning. You then jump to the Godwin's Law argument where you bring up Nazi's to deflect a question posed towards you.

Why not just explain the verse because I don't understand its relevance to wrongful executions like that of Jesse Tafero?

 

[TwinCrier]

Let me get this straight, YOU want ME to explain to YOU why YOU don't understand a bible verse?

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Let me get this straight, YOU want ME to explain to YOU why YOU don't understand a bible verse?

I'm not 100% certain that YOU understand it.


And you're STILL avoiding a straight answer about those who are innocent and wrongfully executed.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Let me get this straight, YOU want ME to explain to YOU why YOU don't understand a bible verse?

Aren't we past all this? It is childish to start jumping into the semantics game. You have two posts that are very clear in asking you a question, but then you start questioning others about a Bible verse.

Seriously...you have yet to comment on the wrongfully executed.

 

[TwinCrier]

Fine, for the "wrongly executed" I find it terrible that they were unable to prevent themselves from being proven guilty when it seemed to be done so easily by others after their death, including some who were in diapers at the time the crime took place. Or perhaps we should question the effort put into "proving" someone innocent after they have already been proven guilty... and executed. Can I not just as easily use every escaped felon who murders again as evidence that the DP would be useful? Can I list specific people that were vistims of crimes by murderers who were given life instead of death and escaped or were paroled to kill again?
Now being called childish by a one year old is a whole different question.