Progressive Dispensationalism

[Job8]

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What you failed to quote was:

THE TWELVE TRIBES AS ABRAHAM'S SEED
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; (Gen 15:13)

THE LAND OF CANAAN FOR THE SEED OF ABRAHAM
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Gen 15:18).

So we have (1) Christ as Abraham's seed, (2) Hebrew believers as Abraham's seed, (3) Gentile believers as Abraham's seed, and (4) the twelve tribes of Israel (redeemed and restored) settled in Canaan as Abraham's seed. Is there a contradiction? Not at all. The scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (reiterated to both Isaac and Jacob) is very broad, and impacts New Testament truth.

 

[BABerean2]

What you failed to quote was:

THE TWELVE TRIBES AS ABRAHAM'S SEED
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; (Gen 15:13)

THE LAND OF CANAAN FOR THE SEED OF ABRAHAM
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: (Gen 15:18).

So we have (1) Christ as Abraham's seed, (2) Hebrew believers as Abraham's seed, (3) Gentile believers as Abraham's seed, and (4) the twelve tribes of Israel (redeemed and restored) settled in Canaan as Abraham's seed. Is there a contradiction? Not at all. The scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (reiterated to both Isaac and Jacob) is very broad, and impacts New Testament truth.

There is no contradiction as long as you realize the Promise does not come through bloodline.


Ishmael is also Abraham's physical seed. Genesis 15:13 is speaking of Abraham's physical seed.


You are attempting to turn Israel of the Flesh into Israel of the Promise.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The inheritance only comes by being a spiritual seed through Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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What did Jesus say to the Pharisees in John chapter 8 after they said they were Abraham's seed?

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Judas was also Abraham's physical seed.

In the Book of James he addressed the 12 tribes as his "brethren", which referred to the spiritual seed, through Christ. They may have also been physical seed, but the inheritance of eternal life only comes through faith in Christ.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


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[Danoh]

All he is doing is asserting his reading his ideas into the passages as a result his having been careless in his study of these issues.

ALL Israelites ARE of the MULTIPLIED PHYSICAL SEED of Abraham.

While, of this SAME, PHYSICAL, MULTIPLIED SEED of Abraham, ONLY their BELIEVING REMNANT are consided as being IN ISAAC because THEY ARE born OF God the moment THEY Believe.

Isaac was BOTH Abraham's PHYSICAL Seed AND GOD's SPIRITUAL Seed.

As a child, he prefigured the Lord's sacrifice of Himself one day. He was Abraham's only begotten son, and so on and so forth.

That out of the way, let's go back to Abraham BEFORE ALL THAT.

BEFORE "Isaac was..."

Back to WHEN Abraham WAS IN UNcircumcision, believed God and it (his faith) was counted FOR righteousness.

It is THIS aspect that Paul is speaking of as to the Gentile WHEN said Gentile BELIEVES (referred to as the LATTER, here)..

The FORMER (Israelites in Isaac, or also born from above upon their belief) HAS PHYSICAL PROMISES that ONLY THEY WILL see REALIZED ONE DAY (the rest of Israel lost forever).

While, BOTH the FORMER and the LATTER are availed the SPIRITUAL Promise: Christ.

THIS IS WHAT the Apostle Paul is asserting at the very end of Romans 3; ESPECIALLY in the middle of Romans 4; which he is merely REPEATING in the middle of Galatians 3.

To miss this is to conclude that the Gentiles are made a part of Israel's various Covenants (a conclusion which is then read into other passages out of a failure in having observed the above Operative Principle).

And that is only the half of this Operative Principle.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

There is no contradiction as long as you realize the Promise does not come through bloodline.

Ishmael is also Abraham's physical seed. Genesis 15:13 is speaking of Abraham's physical seed.

The "Blessing" in Galatians 3:14 is a reference to salvation by grace through faith. This is something distinctively different than the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. In Gen 15:6 Abraham believed and was justified. This was before the Abrahamic Covenant was cut (15:9-21) and before he was circumcised (Gen 17). As Romans 4 states, Abraham is the father of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews.

The "Promise" in Galatians 3 is a reference to the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants. While God blessed Abraham's descendants in general for Abraham's sake (see Gen 21:13 for Ishmael), Scripture shows that the Abrahamic Covenant was specifically passed on to certain descendants. In Genesis 21:12 God confirmed that Isaac was to receive the promises and in Genesis 28:13 God confirmed that Jacob was to receive them.

In fact in Exodus an often repeated phrase is "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" underscores the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant to specific descendants of Abraham, who are collectively known as Israel. That covenant includes the land promises, and formed the basis for the Mosaic covenant for Israel.

You are attempting to turn Israel of the Flesh into Israel of the Promise.

You offer a conclusion but without an explanation of how you handle the Abrahamic Covenant land promises. Also your terminology is confusing. I understand Israel to consist of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. Outside of Israel are believing Gentiles (along with unbelieving Gentiles). In the present both believing Jews and believing Gentiles comprise the church. There is some overlap between Israel and the church (believing Jews), but they are not identical groups.

And if there were believing Jews from the beginning of the church, and Jews coming to Christ in small numbers throughout history to today, then what are we to do with God's land promises made specifically to the Jews? Does God fulfill his promises to them? Or does/did He nullify them because the majority did not turn to Christ? See Romans 11:1 for Paul's question/statement.

 

[BABerean2]

The "Blessing" in Galatians 3:14 is a reference to salvation by grace through faith. This is something distinctively different than the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. In Gen 15:6 Abraham believed and was justified. This was before the Abrahamic Covenant was cut (15:9-21) and before he was circumcised (Gen 17). As Romans 4 states, Abraham is the father of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews.

The "Promise" in Galatians 3 is a reference to the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants. While God blessed Abraham's descendants in general for Abraham's sake (see Gen 21:13 for Ishmael), Scripture shows that the Abrahamic Covenant was specifically passed on to certain descendants. In Genesis 21:12 God confirmed that Isaac was to receive the promises and in Genesis 28:13 God confirmed that Jacob was to receive them.

In fact in Exodus an often repeated phrase is "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" underscores the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant to specific descendants of Abraham, who are collectively known as Israel. That covenant includes the land promises, and formed the basis for the Mosaic covenant for Israel.




You offer a conclusion but without an explanation of how you handle the Abrahamic Covenant land promises. Also your terminology is confusing. I understand Israel to consist of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. Outside of Israel are believing Gentiles (along with unbelieving Gentiles). In the present both believing Jews and believing Gentiles comprise the church. There is some overlap between Israel and the church (believing Jews), but they are not identical groups.

And if there were believing Jews from the beginning of the church, and Jews coming to Christ in small numbers throughout history to today, then what are we to do with God's land promises made specifically to the Jews? Does God fulfill his promises to them? Or does/did He nullify them because the majority did not turn to Christ? See Romans 11:1 for Paul's question/statement.

You are arguing with the Apostle Paul, who makes it clear that the Promise to Abraham was made to only One Seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The whole purpose of the land promise given to the children of Israel and their descendants was to continue the seed-line that would produce the Messiah.


Since the day of the Cross, the middle wall of separation between all races of people has been broken down.


The Apostle Paul does not mention a land promise in the New Testament, other than the New Jerusalem in Galatians 4:26 and found in Hebrews 11:16.


There is only one people of God.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


The children of Israel broke the If-Then promise, thus voiding the land contract. God did not break His promise.
They did.

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

God sent His Son, His only Son, to die on a cross so that those who place their faith in Him may have eternal life.

Was this not enough?

The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church. Paul said that salvation only comes by being grafted into the Olive Tree. The branches broken off due to unbelief can be grafted back in through faith.

Paul does not provide a path of salvation for the branches broken off, outside of the Olive Tree.
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[LamorakDesGalis]

You are arguing with the Apostle Paul, who makes it clear that the Promise to Abraham was made to only One Seed.

No, I am arguing with you and your understanding of Paul. You are not responding to my arguments or my understanding of Scripture, just repeating the same things.

The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church. Paul said that salvation only comes by being grafted into the Olive Tree. The branches broken off due to unbelief can be grafted back in through faith.

If the olive tree is the New Covenant Church, then why would unbelieving Jewish branches be growing out the New Covenant Church?

Scripture says the Jewish branches are natural branches, unlike the Gentile branches, which are wild. That doesn't fit in with a view of it being the church.

I don't think your idea of the symbol matches up what Scripture is presenting in Romans 11.

Paul does not provide a path of salvation for the branches broken off, outside of the Olive Tree.

You have stated this before, and it shows your misunderstanding. Dispensationalists do not claim that "another path" of salvation. In fact, we dispensationalists hold that the unbelieving Jews are not saved. Just before Christ returns, the Jewish nation as a whole will turn to Christ and become believers. That is when the unbelieving branches will be grafted back in. Christ will then return and save the Jews from the enemies surrounding them. Nothing in there is about "another path" of salvation.

 

[BABerean2]

If the olive tree is the New Covenant Church, then why would unbelieving Jewish branches be growing out the New Covenant Church?

Scripture says the Jewish branches are natural branches, unlike the Gentile branches, which are wild. That doesn't fit in with a view of it being the church.

I don't think your idea of the symbol matches up what Scripture is presenting in Romans 11.

The first members of the New Covenant were Israelites as found in Acts chapter 2.

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Paul started Romans chapter 11 with two groups of Israelites. There were the Israelites who bowed down to Baal and the remnant of 7,000 Israelites who remained faithful.

We find the same thing during Paul's time and this is what Paul said in verse 5. There were those who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive Tree and there were those who rejected Christ and were broken off of the Olive Tree, just like the example given during the time of Elijah. Those who bowed down to Baal were broken off of Israel during the time of Elijah.

The Church is made up of Israelites grafted together with Gentiles to make one Body in Christ.

It fits perfectly.

The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant, now in effect based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a pretrib rapture of the Church to take effect.

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[LamorakDesGalis]

The first members of the New Covenant were Israelites as found in Acts chapter 2.

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Do you not know that dispensationalists believe that the church started in Acts 2? That we hold the Jewish believers in Acts 2 were members of the church? That we hold the new covenant was 1) inaugurated by Jesus at the Last Supper, 2) "cut" by His death on the cross, and 3) blessings are applied to the church today?

We find the same thing during Paul's time and this is what Paul said in verse 5. There were those who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive Tree and there were those who rejected Christ and were broken off of the Olive Tree, just like the example given during the time of Elijah. Those who bowed down to Baal were broken off of Israel during the time of Elijah.

There is no Scripture that says that unbelieving Israelites in Elijah's time was broken off of Israel. Why would the prophets refer to a remnant of Israel within Israel? In fact, during Jesus' time, unbelieving Pharisees and Sadducees were members of Israel. Jesus also said in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

The Church is made up of Israelites grafted together with Gentiles to make one Body in Christ.

Have you not read what I stated? I hold that the church consists of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. The church by her nature consists entirely of believers, living stones as Peter says. The natural branches of the olive tree in Romans 11 consists of believing branches and unbelieving branches.

The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant, now in effect based on Hebrews 8:6. It is not waiting on a pretrib rapture of the Church to take effect.

Again you are not responding to anything I said, but are applying a blanket statement, since I hold that the New Covenant is in effect in the church today. And continuing with Romans 11:28-29
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they (the Jews) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

God has a future plan for the Jews, as Paul described in Romans 11:30-32.

 

[BABerean2]

Again you are not responding to anything I said, but are applying a blanket statement, since I hold that the New Covenant is in effect in the church today. And continuing with Romans 11:28-29
"As far as the gospel is concerned, they (the Jews) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

God has a future plan for the Jews, as Paul described in Romans 11:30-32.

Most modern Dispensationalists claim the modern nation of Israel will come to faith in Christ after the period of "Grace" after the "Church Age" comes to an end. However, Hebrews 13:20 says the New Covenant is "everlasting".

If you are saying modern Jews will be grafted into the Church found in Matthew chapter 16, then we are in agreement. My wife and I contribute to this effort on a monthly basis.


The prophets of Baal were most certainly cut off from Israel in the verse below.

1Ki 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

You fail to see two groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28.
There were "they" who spoke against Paul and were the enemies of the Gospel.
There were also "they" who were the elect remnant that accepted Christ as the Messiah, just as Paul said in Romans 11:5.



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