Progressive Dispensationalism

[Jesus First]

I'm writing an article on Dispensational theology. My question is concerning progressive Dispensationalism. Is it true that most Christians who consider themselves dispensationalists, are now progressive dispensationalists?

By progressive, I mean that most would consider themselves premillennial, and that the church partakes in both the Abrahamic and New Covenant ("already but not yet"). Further, most would believe that Jesus currently sits on David's throne.

I'm not attempting to create a theological debate. It's my desire to conclude my research with an accurate assessment of the general landscape.

Thanks in advance. Above all else, keep your faith in Jesus Christ!

 

[Danoh]

PD is an attempt to solve for what both Covenant or Reformed Theology, and Acts 2 Dispensationalism have never really been able to.

The result of two extremes, it is merely another one.

For Israel is Israel and not the Body.

Both schools of thought taking from what belongs to Israel while asserting otherwise.

As for whether or not it is true that most Dispy's are now PD, that will depend on who you ask and what agenda they are either pushing, or have unwittingly bought into.

Fact is, there are still many Dispys out there - especially within Acts 9 Dispensationalism, which has continued to grow throughout various parts of the world, including the U.S.

Why?

Because many of its adherents tend to rely on each their own, personal, one on one time in the Scripture, and such an individual is not easily swayed by the academia that everyone else ends up weaned on whether by Seminary or books, and or the teachers that results in, as one's primary source what Scripture is talking about.

It is much more difficult, if not impossible, to sway someone down the path of traditional viewpoint if they know their Bible as well as many an Acts 9 Dispy does.

 

[Jesus First]

Thanks Danoh for your reply. I read the book Progressive Dispensationalism several years ago. I'm unable to locate it in my library. After reading it I was left with the impression that many traditionalists Dispensationalists had moved towards the center. I realize this book is dated (2000) and it was two author's opinions.

Thanks again. In Christ!

 

[BABerean2]

I'm writing an article on Dispensational theology. My question is concerning progressive Dispensationalism. Is it true that most Christians who consider themselves dispensationalists, are now progressive dispensationalists?

By progressive, I mean that most would consider themselves premillennial, and that the church partakes in both the Abrahamic and New Covenant ("already but not yet"). Further, most would believe that Jesus currently sits on David's throne.

I'm not attempting to create a theological debate. It's my desire to conclude my research with an accurate assessment of the general landscape.

Thanks in advance. Above all else, keep your faith in Jesus Christ!

The YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" would be a good place to start in your research, since it presents the document that started modern Dispensational Theology.

 

[Jesus First]

Thanks, BABerean2 for providing the link. In Christ!

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks, BABerean2 for providing the link. In Christ!

You are welcome.

Here is a paper written by a Brethren Historian in 1966 that should also be helpful.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

 

[Jesus First]

You are welcome.

Here is a paper written by a Brethren Historian in 1966 that should also be helpful.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Thank you. I read most of it. I'm aware of some of the early history of this theology.

I came to this forum thinking that most dispensationalists are progressive. But it appears from the feedback that they may be in the minority.

Any additional input is welcome.

In Christ!

 

[Danoh]

Thank you. I read most of it. I'm aware of some of the early history of this theology.

I came to this forum thinking that most dispensationalists are progressive. But it appears from the feedback that they may be in the minority.

Any additional input is welcome.

In Christ!

Do yourself a favor; learn first how to study the Bible.

And that really boils down to basic Early Elementary School Principles having to do with how to get at the intended sense of what one is reading.

Apply those to your study of Scripture - who, what, when, where, why, how, and why, in its various aspects.

As in who to whom as to what and so on.

Get good at contrasts as well as similarities between things.

Synonyms and all the rest...

After some time in that, THEN bother with "the history."

Always remember "the history" of a thing is too often marred by an extreme agenda either in favor of, or against, a thing.

Don't believe me? Ask any Native American.

<Staff Edit>

Anyway, get some principles down THEN consider what the various sides assert about one thing or another.

This way, you will at least be somewhat equipped to consider all sides from a much more neutral base.

 

[BABerean2]

Thank you. I read most of it. I'm aware of some of the early history of this theology.

I came to this forum thinking that most dispensationalists are progressive. But it appears from the feedback that they may be in the minority.

Any additional input is welcome.

In Christ!

Doctor Darrell Bock, of Dallas Theological, has a video on Progressive Dispensationalism on YouTube, that is good if you have not seen it.

.

 

[MWood]

One more thing!
As you read the Bible you will notice that all of the Old Testament is God dealing with His Chosen People, the Nation of Israel. When you move on into the New testament you will realize that Jesus is a fulfillment of a promise that God made to His Chosen People through the Prophets. All the Prophets from Samuel and all those that followed after Samuel prophesied about Jesus.

Then comes the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, which covers about 40 years of time. The epistles of Paul explains what Jesus accomplished when He died on the Cross, and how God is dealing with everyone on earth on an individual basis. These things are how we are to live our life for God in this age of Grace. When you get to Hebrews-Revelation, these books were written to and for the benefit of Gods Chosen People, the Nation of Israel.

If you will use Gods instructions and "Rightly Divide the Word of Truth," you will find Dispensationism.

 

[MWood]

The reason I started this thread was to gage the growth of progressive Dispensationalism. This is for an article I'm creating for a website. I didn't want to start a debate. I hope what follows doesn't, unless Jesus is glorified.

I used to be a classical dispensationalist, but gave this theological system up to rid myself of the theological overlay it is. Man doesn't have freedom from God to take the word "dispensation" (as found in Scripture) and "gut it out" and stuff it with a man-made theology. If the Bible makes a distinction, we should make it; but we don't have authority by God to artificially dice His Word.

The most fundamental pillar of Dispensationalism is a "hard nose" distinction between Israel and the church. This distinction is only valid if God makes it. Because of the nature of progressive revelation, Abraham's understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant was surely not comprehensive. Just because Abraham and his descendants did not fully grasp the church, doesn't prevent God from opening up the benefits to Gentiles by His grace (John 10:16) . God already had a condition allowing this in Genesis 12:3 "and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed"

If we employ a literal hermeneutics to the Old Testament Abrahamic and New Covenent, we need to equally employ a literal interpretation to the New Testament —there is no contradiction in doing so. Traditional dispensational theology doesn't take the New Testament promises to the church literally to protect their flawed theological overlay that distorts God's Word. Just because the Bible has outstanding promises to redeemed Israel that will be fulfilled in the millennial reign, this is not justification to exclude the church which is a participant through Jesus Christ. After all, the church is Jews first, Gentiles second.

The unfulfilled promises made to Abraham's descendants will be fulfilled. God keeps His promises. While the church is clearly a beneficiary, this doesn't mean they (the promises) are to be "spiritualized away" by the church (as many sincere have done). The time of the Gentiles will be coming to en end.

God is not a one track God where He can't work with the church and redeemed Israel at the same time. I say this because traditional dispensation (as I used to believe) uses this excuse for a Pre-trib rapture that is not exegetically found. In reality, exegesis has the church in the tribulation!

One very serious flaw of Dispensationalism is that the church is approaching the tribulation. False teachers are promising safety when God's Word is clear that judgement will start very soon. There is going to be a huge falling away (many have believed the dispensation lie) when the antichrist appears and the restrainer is removed.

I'm not going to say that one cannot be a dispensationalist and a Christian. I sure was. Nevertheless, this theology is false and satan is in the details. There is no biblical support, or historical support.

In the love of Christ and for His glory!

Keep the faith; there is only minutes left.

And so the truth of your research is revealed!!

 

[Jesus First]

Thanks everyone for providing your feedback.

In Christ!

 

[BABerean2]

The reason I started this thread was to gage the growth of progressive Dispensationalism. This is for an article I'm creating for a website. I didn't want to start a debate. I hope what follows doesn't, unless Jesus is glorified.

I used to be a classical dispensationalist, but gave this theological system up to rid myself of the theological overlay it is. Man doesn't have freedom from God to take the word "dispensation" (as found in Scripture) and "gut it out" and stuff it with a man-made theology. If the Bible makes a distinction, we should make it; but we don't have authority by God to artificially dice His Word.

The most fundamental pillar of Dispensationalism is a "hard nose" distinction between Israel and the church. This distinction is only valid if God makes it. Because of the nature of progressive revelation, Abraham's understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant was surely not comprehensive. Just because Abraham and his descendants did not fully grasp the church, doesn't prevent God from opening up the benefits to Gentiles by His grace (John 10:16) . God already had a condition allowing this in Genesis 12:3 "and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed"

If we employ a literal hermeneutics to the Old Testament Abrahamic and New Covenent, we need to equally employ a literal interpretation to the New Testament —there is no contradiction in doing so. Traditional dispensational theology doesn't take the New Testament promises to the church literally to protect their flawed theological overlay that distorts God's Word. Just because the Bible has outstanding promises to redeemed Israel that will be fulfilled in the millennial reign, this is not justification to exclude the church which is a participant through Jesus Christ. After all, the church is Jews first, Gentiles second.

The unfulfilled promises made to Abraham's descendants will be fulfilled. God keeps His promises. While the church is clearly a beneficiary, this doesn't mean they (the promises) are to be "spiritualized away" by the church (as many sincere have done). The time of the Gentiles will be coming to en end.

God is not a one track God where He can't work with the church and redeemed Israel at the same time. I say this because traditional dispensation (as I used to believe) uses this excuse for a Pre-trib rapture that is not exegetically found. In reality, exegesis has the church in the tribulation!

One very serious flaw of Dispensationalism is that the church is approaching the tribulation. False teachers are promising safety when God's Word is clear that judgement will start very soon. There is going to be a huge falling away (many have believed the dispensation lie) when the antichrist appears and the restrainer is removed.

I'm not going to say that one cannot be a dispensationalist and a Christian. I sure was. Nevertheless, this theology is false and satan is in the details. There is no biblical support, or historical support.

In the love of Christ and for His glory!

Keep the faith; there is only minutes left.

During the early years of the Plymouth Brethren, Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together.
When Newton would not accept Darby's adoption of the "Secret Rapture" teaching of the Irvingites or Darby's division of scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel, Darby made a personal attack on Newton.

That same spirit is alive and well on the forum.

Anyone who dares to doubt Darby's doctrine is likely to be attacked in like manner.

And so it is...
.

 

[drstevej]

I am a dispensationalist (not progressive dispensationalist). I was a seminary classmate of Craig Blaising.

 

[Jesus First]

<Staff Edit>

So when will this rapture occur based on the context?

"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31

 

[Danoh]

So when will this rapture occur based on the context?

"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31

THAT is NOT the BODY's PRE-Trib Rapture...

That is those two DIVIDED and SCATTERED abroad "children of God" - the whole of the house of Israel and the whole of His OTHER SHEEP not of that fold - Judah.

Which is interesting in itself because He was of the latter of those two when He first came unto the former of those two.

But anyway, the passage you cited is about prophecies like...

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

You guys kill me with that - there is no Scriptural support for a Post Trib Rapture - none.

Some cannot see it, because their system of interpretation will not allow it.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(How long is "forever".)

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.............................................................

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(The phrase "sleep" in Jesus is a metaphor describing the dead in Christ.)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(The word "descend" means to come down in most dictionaries.)

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connect chapter 5 to chapter 4. There were no chapters or verses when the letter was written.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(We also find the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. Therefore, this verse provides the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(It will not overtake us as a thief.)

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The metaphor "sleep" ties the passage to chapter 4, again.)


No 7 year stay in heaven can be found within the passage, because it does not exist.
It must be imported from another passage.

 

[Jesus First]

<Staff Edit>

Christ is coming before, during or after the tribulation. The timing of the rapture, while important, is not a salvation issue, or core doctrine of the Christian faith. This doesnt mean it's an inconsequential doctrine.

I hope I have not communicated any hate speech as we all are accountable to God for every written, or spoken word, beginning with myself.

There are a lot of passionate people on this forum and I'm not exclude. I apoligize for anyone I may have offended in my passion to communicate what I believe is truth.

"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:7-8

In Christ!

 

[Lulav]

YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!


I've had to take the fire hose and
clean up this thread of many
FLAMES.
Please continue this discussion
in an non-incendiary manner.
Direct your responses to the
post and not the poster
and not even in a
passive aggressive way either.
THANK YOU ​

 

[Job8]

By progressive, I mean that most would consider themselves premillennial, and that the church partakes in both the Abrahamic and New Covenant ("already but not yet"). Further, most would believe that Jesus currently sits on David's throne.

Not sure what you mean by progressive.

PREMILLENNIAL - YES
ABRAHAMIC COVENANT - YES, THROUGH CHRIST RIGHT NOW
NEW COVENANT - YES, THROUGH CHRIST RIGHT NOW
DAVID'S THRONE - RESERVED FOR DAVID DURING AND AFTER THE MILLENNIUM
CHRIST'S THRONE - AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER RIGHT NOW