Predestination

[fhansen]

Not a single rational statement, huh?

OK, might've been one or two in there.

Strictly speaking, your unwillingness to let God be God is not rational. It defies reason. But I don't traffic in gratuitous insults; I just don't see how you can not appreciate that you're saying, on the one hand, that God can't predestine people because he's not moved by our fallen standards of behavior...and follow that up by saying that what he must do instead is love as we define it.

Having said that, keep in mind that if we were all left to earn salvation by living up to the demands of the Law or, for that matter, of perfect Love, none of us would make it. So if God predestines EVEN ONE PERSON to eternal salvation, he's showing Love to that one. We may say that this is unfair, but that's fairness as we mortals living in a democratic society in the 21st century define fairness.

Strictly speaking, your unwillingness to let God be God is not rational. Also, you're head-slapping icon comes off as a gratuitous insult-an expression that hasn't necessarily been backed up with any real content. We don't define love- I certainly don't anyway-God defines love because God is love. And that love He desires to share with all people if we're willing to change, if we're willing to accept it. And that kind of love cannot be faked or manufactured by us. It is at the core of our faith and what God is after in us and for us, the Potter molding the clay, placing His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds. And so yes, God didn't give man laws he couldn't possibly obey, then blame him for not obeying them, then randomly send some to heaven and some to hell anyway; we can live up to the demands of the Law, the law as summed up in the greatest commandments, that is our salvation, not because we've earned it but because we've recognized our need for Him, answered the call, and allowed Him to begin a work in us, not completed all at once. And this explains the meaning of scripture that tells us that no sinners will enter heaven. God's will will be done in us, justice will be restored to His universe, in those who themselves are willing. That's not based on a 21st century definition of fairness; that's revelation and the consistent teaching of the Christian faith.

But even having said that I'll tell you that I used to think more like you. Now I know that there are parallels between the spiritual and physical worlds, between Gods' nature and our own, having been made in His image- between Gods "values" and our own. We're here to learn some things by living in this world. We experience-we know- both good and evil in this world. From both perspectives, spiritual and physical, there are consequences to our actions-what we do counts, we reap what we sow. And Matt 25:31-46 gives us a good idea of what love "looks like", of how God desires us to sow, and of what he desires us to become-as a result of that love.

 

[Albion]

OK, might've been one or two in there.

Strictly speaking, your unwillingness to let God be God is not rational.

I think you mean not in my best interests.

Also, you're head-slapping icon comes off as a gratuitous insult-an expression that hasn't necessarily been backed up with any real content.

Well you yourself backed off from what you'd written, so my "Doh" was appropriate. And BTW, the icon doesn't mean what you attributed to it.

We don't define love- I certainly don't anyway-God defines love because God is love.

Then you have no hesitation in agreeing that if God chooses to save some of us and not others, he may well be acting in love. Am I right?

But even having said that I'll tell you that I used to think more like you.

And I used to think like you. Isn't that interesting? Or is it just commonplace with religion?

 

[fhansen]

Well you yourself backed off from what you'd written, so my "Doh" was appropriate.

strange thing to say-gettin' used to it here tho. Anyway, haven't seen you use it appropriately yet.

Then you have no hesitation in agreeing that if God chooses to save some of us and not others, he may well be acting in love. Am I right?

No, not if he created all to sin and and then sent some to hell for sinning- that would not be love. Love is inherently tied to justice.

And I used to think like you. Isn't that interesting? Or is it just commonplace with religion?

You'll come around. I have faith.

 

[Foghorn]

I think we can do better at grasping who God is. God is not like us. Compared to Him we tend to be vindictive, petty, self-righteous, vengeful, etc. Yes, we aren't who God created us to be-we're out of sync with nature -with our own God-given natures. God, OTOH, is patient, kind, long-suffering, merciful, just, humble, and, most of all, God is love, love personified, love on an infinitely grand and magnificent, take-your-breath-away scale. Now with all this in mind we need to seriously ask ourselves a simple question, do we really, truly deserve eternal torment? Are most of us really that bad? I know one thing, even if we are, my God doesn't want us to remain that way-He desires none to perish-He wants only the best for mankind-if we will.

That's your opinion. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Foghorn]

[/i]

I don't care for it when a poster accuses another of having used a "circular argument," but what I've just read looks like a good example of one. First you say that we mortals have our own ways that are not God's, and then you conclude that God must live up to...what? Why, the thinking and emotional standards of us mortals, of course. .

Yep. And what more can be said?

 

[Foghorn]

Jesus taught predestination.

You can't turn a bad tree into a good tree and vice versa. They are what they are.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel with the full intention that His Words came to them first, as their lineage was predestined from the beginning to bring Him, God in Flesh as Word/Bread/Life to the world.

Paul also taught this, that salvation is of the JEWS first. Why? Because they are 'predestined' to be saved.

The salvation of all of Israel is a foregone conclusion. Paul again openly taught a MYSTERY, that 'all of Israel' shall be saved. Even enemies, yes, enemies of the Gospel who were made such for 'our sakes' and made so, predestined unto blindness/deafness for the sake of believing Gentiles.

This salvation of them, of all of Israel is NOT predicated on their 'correct beliefs' or 'correct doctrines.' The fact that all of them shall be saved confirms predestination REGARDLESS of their WORKS or their WAYS. And again, this fact drives a Mack Truck hole in many 'theories' about 'how God really works.' It puts a dent in all Calvin based forms of predestination based on faith, because they are saved without same. And it puts a bigger hole in the freewill camps, because their wills are, and Paul even uses the term ARE enemies, present tense, of the Gospel. So they are even saved apart from their own wills and actions.

A few of these facts of MANY such facts are laid out in my post in this thread, #45:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7659674-5/#post60613323

In short, ALL vessels of honor are predestined to be saved. Nothing can change that fact.

And all vessels of dishonor were made by God to demonstrate HIS Eternal Mercy as a first hand experience for all vessels of honor. When God completes His Uses of the vessels of dishonor which He presently 'tolerates' He will utterly destroy them forever.

This makes Salvation of God in Christ UNmerited UNearned Grace and superabundant Divine Mercy, all of Him, as such eternal measures can only come from The Eternal One.

On the basis of Gods Sufficiency, there should be GREAT confidence of faith. God has also chosen to 'try' such faith for us who believe. We are 'early' partakers.

If anyone would like to engage the fact of the post noted, I am always happy to share His Good News. Even in the face of the resistance that tries my own faith, as God has shown me in His Words.

The understanding is a threat to no believer, but the source of very great joy and present HOPE which I share.

enjoy!

squint

I don't think these posts will really be considered. My post 38-39 prove individual predestination, even a double predestination, but it is ignored. That's what some do, if they don't like a truth, just ignore it. Far as I am concerned, until some of these posts are honestly considered and addressed there is nothing more to talk about.

Know what I mean?

 

[fhansen]

Yep. And what more can be said?

Well, since Albion couldn't do it, care to demonstrate the circular reasoning you detected in my post?

 

[squint]

I don't think these posts will really be considered.

Scripture facts don't change by bypassing them with brush offs.

My post 38-39 prove individual predestination, even a double predestination, but it is ignored.

I agree with double predestination. Perhaps you don't even recognize a position that you hold?

That's what some do, if they don't like a truth, just ignore it. Far as I am concerned, until some of these posts are honestly considered and addressed there is nothing more to talk about.

Know what I mean?

Uh, no. I hear a foghorn in fog. Again, you are welcome to engage the scriptural facts put forth. I am no enemy of predestination.

Every vessel of honor will be saved. Every vessel of dishonor will have a final ending fate in the Lake.

I cited Paul's teachings on this matter as it pertains to 'all of Israel' being saved, even ENEMIES of the Gospel. That part will probably stick in your craw, but it's there, thankfully, in print, and it's too late to change Paul's writings now.

Romans 11:25-32.

And just so you know, every common holder of predestination can't believe their eyes when they read it and I have put it to 'hundreds' of same, so I won't really be expecting much difference in your reply, if any.

s

 

[Foghorn]

Scripture facts don't change by bypassing them with brush offs.



I agree with double predestination. Perhaps you don't even recognize a position that you hold?



Uh, no. I hear a foghorn in fog. Again, you are welcome to engage the scriptural facts put forth. I am no enemy of predestination.

Every vessel of honor will be saved. Every vessel of dishonor will have a final ending fate in the Lake.

I cited Paul's teachings on this matter as it pertains to 'all of Israel' being saved, even ENEMIES of the Gospel. That part will probably stick in your craw, but it's there, thankfully, in print, and it's too late to change Paul's writings now.

Romans 11:25-32.

And just so you know, every common holder of predestination can't believe their eyes when they read it and I have put it to 'hundreds' of same, so I won't really be expecting much difference in your reply, if any.

s

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't addressing that about you.

 

[squint]

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't addressing that about you.

You might want to actually take a closer look. It might do your sight good to see just what you are able to see.

It is the 'least' favorite scripture set of all determination holders. Yet it is the most confirming scripture set in the entire text concerning same.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

I kind of enjoy watching 'determinists' handling of that matter. You know, just to see if they really are what they claim to be. I can even tell you in advance the 2 or 3 evasive actions you will take on it before you even respond.

Romans 11:25-32. All of Israel saved, even enemies of the Gospel.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Foghorn]

You might want to actually take a closer look. It might do your sight good to see just what you are able to see.

It is the 'least' favorite scripture set of all determination holders. Yet it is the most confirming scripture set in the entire text concerning same.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

I kind of enjoy watching 'determinists' handling of that matter. You know, just to see if they really are what they claim to be. I can even tell you in advance the 2 or 3 evasive actions you will take on it before you even respond.

Ok, so please, tell me the three evasive actions?

Then I will, discuss or answer this..............

Romans 11:25-32. All of Israel saved, even enemies of the Gospel.

 

[squint]

Ok, so please, tell me the three evasive actions?

Then I will, discuss or answer this..............

Far be it from me to prompt exchange for mutual profit. If you don't want to dialog about it, why are you in this thread?

Evasive maneuver 1. Future enemies of the Gospel
Evasive maneuver 2. It doesn't say what it says
Evasive maneuver 3. It's not even there

s

 

[Foghorn]

Far be it from me to prompt exchange for mutual profit. If you don't want to dialog about it, why are you in this thread?

Evasive maneuver 1. Future enemies of the Gospel
Evasive maneuver 2. It doesn't say what it says
Evasive maneuver 3. It's not even there

s

Ok, ask your question, exactly what would you like to know?

 

[Foghorn]

Far be it from me to prompt exchange for mutual profit. If you don't want to dialog about it, why are you in this thread?

Evasive maneuver 1. Future enemies of the Gospel
Evasive maneuver 2. It doesn't say what it says
Evasive maneuver 3. It's not even there

s

I guess you really don't have a question after all.

 

[squint]

I guess you really don't have a question after all.

I guess you have nothing to say and that's fine with me.

s

 

[LachMck]

I think this may have degenerated from healthy debate to arguments

 

[Foghorn]

I guess you have nothing to say and that's fine with me.

s

Ask and I will answer.

 

[Foghorn]

I think this may have degenerated from healthy debate to arguments

I'm not arguing, I just waiting for the question.

 

[dollarsbill]

It's pretty tough to argue against Biblical Predestination.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB)
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[Foghorn]

It's pretty tough to argue against Biblical Predestination.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB)
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

As far as I am concerned there is no arguing against it. It's all there, one would just have to deny it to argue against it.