Prayer and Free Will

[NotreDame]

Thank you for all that you offered. I appreciate it. Question: Do you think that when a person prays to the Lord that another person changes their horrible behavior, and that if my prayers change that person without their consent, is their sense of free will violated since what caused them to change was not their own choice, but mine and the Lord's together?

and that if my prayers change that person without their consent

How does a person “change without their consent”?

 

[NotreDame]

Self-control is actually Godly behavior. We can't even say that our sense of self-control is of ourselves, for those who are self-controlled are simply reflecting the fact that they are controlled by the Holy Spirit.

It's funny to think about: Even Satanists operate by Godly behavior, for if they aren't self-controlled in their meetings, members would be booted. Cracks me up . . . so blind.

A person is never under the control of themselves. We are controlled by our Father, be it the Devil or God.

If by “control” you understand God or Satan to directly cause us to act, then indeed there’s no free will. There’s not a single Biblical verse declaring the above.

And if you’re inclined to quote to NT verses regarding being a “slave” the original Greek used does not support your statement.

 

[Oneofhope]

If by “control” you understand God or Satan to directly cause us to act, then indeed there’s no free will. There’s not a single Biblical verse declaring the above.

Thanks for stopping in!

What Bible translation do you use? And, if I show you some passages that clearly show God's Sovereignty over creation, will you change your mind?

 

[Studyman]

Thanks for stopping in!

What Bible translation do you use? And, if I show you some passages that clearly show God's Sovereignty over creation, will you change your mind?

I think what others are trying to get you to consider, certainly I am, is that in matters pertaining to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, a man should consider what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures. Not one verse, separated from the rest of the Scriptures and used to promote personal adopted philosophies, but as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God.

You will find, as others have, that God provides direction, instruction in righteousness, examples of faith and faithlessness and pleads to men that they choose HIM over Calvin, or Gamaliel, or the Pope or Arminius or the "many" voices who "Come in His Name" Jesus spoke to, that I asked you about, but you chose to ignore. God teaches, that is, the God of the Holy Scriptures, that it's up to man to "Yield themselves", "Deny Themselves", "Humble themselves", "Offer themselves" to God as it is written over and over and over and over in the Scriptures God had written for our admonition.

No one is arguing that God isn't a Sovereign God and rules over creation. But clearly, according to Scriptures, it's a choice men make to whom they "Yield themselves" servants to obey.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye" present "your" bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that "ye may prove" what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Oneofhope]

I think what others are trying to get you to consider, certainly I am, is that in matters pertaining to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, a man should consider what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures. Not one verse, separated from the rest of the Scriptures and used to promote personal adopted philosophies, but as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God.

You will find, as others have, that God provides direction, instruction in righteousness, examples of faith and faithlessness and pleads to men that they choose HIM over Calvin, or Gamaliel, or the Pope or Arminius or the "many" voices who "Come in His Name" Jesus spoke to, that I asked you about, but you chose to ignore. God teaches, that is, the God of the Holy Scriptures, that it's up to man to "Yield themselves", "Deny Themselves", "Humble themselves", "Offer themselves" to God as it is written over and over and over and over in the Scriptures God had written for our admonition.

No one is arguing that God isn't a Sovereign God and rules over creation. But clearly, according to Scriptures, it's a choice men make to whom they "Yield themselves" servants to obey.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye" present "your" bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that "ye may prove" what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I think what others are trying to get you to consider, certainly I am, is that in matters pertaining to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, a man should consider what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures. Not one verse, separated from the rest of the Scriptures and used to promote personal adopted philosophies, but as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "Every Word" that proceeds from the mouth of God.

You will find, as others have, that God provides direction, instruction in righteousness, examples of faith and faithlessness and pleads to men that they choose HIM over Calvin, or Gamaliel, or the Pope or Arminius or the "many" voices who "Come in His Name" Jesus spoke to, that I asked you about, but you chose to ignore. God teaches, that is, the God of the Holy Scriptures, that it's up to man to "Yield themselves", "Deny Themselves", "Humble themselves", "Offer themselves" to God as it is written over and over and over and over in the Scriptures God had written for our admonition.

No one is arguing that God isn't a Sovereign God and rules over creation. But clearly, according to Scriptures, it's a choice men make to whom they "Yield themselves" servants to obey.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye" present "your" bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that "ye may prove" what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Because you are a judgmental "christian," we will no longer be communicating.

I wish you well and hope that you will discontinue being argumentative and judgmental. No one deserves your low-level form of treatment.

Your attitude is not welcome in this thread.

 

[Studyman]

Because you are a judgmental "christian," we will no longer be communicating.

I wish you well and hope that you will discontinue being argumentative and judgmental. No one deserves your low-level form of treatment.

Your attitude is not welcome in this thread.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus time thought the exact same thing about Him when He spoke His Fathers truth. Surely there is no new thing under the sun.

Thanks for the thread. It is good to hash out all the different religious philosophies promoted by the “many” who come in Christs name.

There is no more to really say about the religious philosophy being promoted in this thread so it’s a perfect time to move on.

Again, that is for the thread.

 

[Oneofhope]

The mainstream preachers of Jesus time thought the exact same thing about Him when He spoke His Fathers truth. Surely there is no new thing under the sun.

Thanks for the thread. It is good to hash out all the different religious philosophies promoted by the “many” who come in Christs name.

There is no more to really say about the religious philosophy being promoted in this thread so it’s a perfect time to move on.

Again, that is for the thread.

Thank you for your mature exit. I respect that very much.

You are encouraged to participate in my next thread and we can try again, hoping to establish what Jesus commanded, which is that we Love each other from the vantage point of a Circumcised heart.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for your mature exit. I respect that very much.

You are encouraged to participate in my next thread and we can try again, hoping to establish what Jesus commanded, which is that we Love each other from the vantage point of a Circumcised heart.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Amen

 

[Oneofhope]

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Amen

Yes!!! That's it!

I am not your enemy. Instead, I am your Brother in Christ. And we are to Love each other with a kind, gentle, and humble Spirit.

Studyman, I promise you this . . . in the future, if someone comes after you in one of my threads, I will defend you. And though you may not need my defense (nor desire it), the point is that my goal is, particularly at Christian forums, to begin talking to each other as though Christ owned our lips. This isn't so much as to control a person, but to help them discover the peace of a kind and gentle spirit. I'm not singling you out here, but I'm just expressing my heart's desire.

I believe in you.

 

[SamInNi]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

In the context of James 5 (I assume):

In a gathering of the a local church, prayers of faith will restore (save and heal) those who are suffering and weakened. The righteous person’s prayer of faith “makes tremendous power available” (Amplified Bible), “has great power as it is working” (ESV).

(More on prayers of faith: “This is the confidence we have before him: If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears whatever we ask, we know that we have what we have asked of him” [1 John 5:14-15].)

The righteous person’s prayer of faith for someone in need takes place in a context where praying for one another is needed and, of course, consensual. To state the obvious, those in need would certainly approve of being restored through prayer. In context, the question above doesn’t really make sense.

But also in the wider context, all effectual prayers of faith accomplish God’s will. This is good news for all those who belong to Him, who are willingly submitted to His authority.

If a person is prayed for who is not a believer, the effect of the prayer of faith still accomplishes God's will. The will of man is not an issue.

 

[Oneofhope]

In the context of James 5 (I assume):

In a gathering of the a local church, prayers of faith will restore (save and heal) those who are suffering and weakened. The righteous person’s prayer of faith “makes tremendous power available” (Amplified Bible), “has great power as it is working” (ESV).

(More on prayers of faith: “This is the confidence we have before him: If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears whatever we ask, we know that we have what we have asked of him” [1 John 5:14-15].)

The righteous person’s prayer of faith for someone in need takes place in a context where praying for one another is needed and, of course, consensual. To state the obvious, those in need would certainly approve of being restored through prayer. In context, the question above doesn’t really make sense.

But also in the wider context, all effectual prayers of faith accomplish God’s will. This is good news for all those who belong to Him, who are willingly submitted to His authority.

If a person is prayed for who is not a believer, the effect of the prayer of faith still accomplishes God's will. The will of man is not an issue.

Thank you so much for jumping in!

However, I'm not quite sure of where you stand. I seem to be reading arguments for both sides.

There are several prayers of Holy men who have prayed that God would take control of themselves. There are several prayers where Holy men have prayed that God would control others in a horrible way. Some of which even asked God to kill their enemies. Wow. And then there are several prayers of Holy men who pray that good things would come to others. We are even told to pray for those who express themselves as our enemies.

I have plenty of examples, as I have found them all, having scoured the Bible Word for Word looking for such examples. Below is one of them (noting that it is from king David, the "Father" of Christ:

Psalm 55:8-10 NLT - "How quickly I would escape--far from this wild storm of hatred. 9 Confuse them, Lord, and frustrate their plans, for I see violence and conflict in the city. 10 Its walls are patrolled day and night against invaders, but the real danger is wickedness within the city."

As said, there are plenty of passages that deal with prayer. In total there are over 350 sets of passages that totally support the rational belief that humans have, at best, partial free will. This is not my teaching nor doctrine . . . for I am merely a reporter sharing what is within the Word of God. If someone wants to accept these passages and consider them, that is up to them. Doesn't matter to me . . . I am just here to share and receive what other kind-hearted people have to offer.

 

[Studyman]

Yes!!! That's it!

I am not your enemy. Instead, I am your Brother in Christ. And we are to Love each other with a kind, gentle, and humble Spirit.

Studyman, I promise you this . . . in the future, if someone comes after you in one of my threads, I will defend you. And though you may not need my defense (nor desire it), the point is that my goal is, particularly at Christian forums, to begin talking to each other as though Christ owned our lips. This isn't so much as to control a person, but to help them discover the peace of a kind and gentle spirit. I'm not singling you out here, but I'm just expressing my heart's desire.

I believe in you.

As a Brother I am happy to engage in honest, unbiased review and discussion regarding ALL Scripture, as I SEEK First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness and "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, according to the instruction of the Lord's Christ. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect". But I cannot and will not partake with you in the promotion of doctrines or religious philosophies and/or traditions of men and rudiments of this world. I am told to "take heed" and "Beware" of these things and the men who promote them.

I know that since your youth, and mine as well, this world's religions have promoted that men who adopt and support their particular religious sect or business, are all set. They are "Saved" and have Peace, or as it is written in another place "Thou shall surely not die".

The Spirit of God has warned me of this very thing over and over.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that "walketh" after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

And I have already posted for your review and asked you a question about Jesus' warning of the "many" who come in His Name.

While I wish for peace between men, I am also cognoscente of the Jesus "of the Bible's" Words.

Matt. 10: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

It is more important to me, that Jesus knows me, and that I may be accepted by God. I would much rather you believed all that is written by the Inspiration of God, than believe in me. I am a nobody here today, gone tomorrow. But the Words of the Christ, they are Spirit and they are Life.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, "and" Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Oneofhope]

As a Brother I am happy to engage in honest, unbiased review and discussion regarding ALL Scripture, as I SEEK First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness and "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus, according to the instruction of the Lord's Christ. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect". But I cannot and will not partake with you in the promotion of doctrines or religious philosophies and/or traditions of men and rudiments of this world. I am told to "take heed" and "Beware" of these things and the men who promote them.

I see. Well . . . thank you for the opportunity to receive your authority and control, but I am happy to walk away and let you control and manipulate others. I do not accept your authority over me.

May the Lord grant you the most amazing of Blessings.

 

[Bobber]

Thank you for all that you offered. I appreciate it. Question: Do you think that when a person prays to the Lord that another person changes their horrible behavior, and that if my prayers change that person without their consent,

Let's stop right there. Who says the change is without their consent?

 

[Oneofhope]

Let's stop right there. Who says the change is without their consent?

I'm not sure of what you mean. Are you suggesting that when people pray for others, the other people are always aware?

 

[Bobber]

I'm not sure of what you mean. Are you suggesting that when people pray for others, the other people are always aware?

They'd always be aware of making a choice of what decision they make to get closer to God or not.

 

[Oneofhope]

They'd always be aware of making a choice of what decision they make to get closer to God or not.

I see. If this were true, and it could be, but if it were, then I can't see how prayer would be Effectual.