Prayer and Free Will

[Oneofhope]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

 

[Vambram]

That is a very interesting question. Without thinking about that question some more, I am not sure what my answer to it would be.

 

[Oneofhope]

That is a very interesting question. Without thinking about that question some more, I am not sure what my answer to it would be.

It is, indeed, a good question. There are many prayers in our Bible (from Holy men) who prayed for change in others . . . some good, some not so good.

If the prayers of Righteous people can determine the re-direction of a person's life without their consent, the subject of prayer has lost their sense of free will.

Parents with uncontrollable children understand these prayers. For they pray against the free will of their teenage children, that God would change them, that He would change their hearts and cause them to be softer, kinder, and gentler.

 

[Oneofhope]

I'm surprised the free-will thumpers aren't trying to shred this apart. Am I onto something?

 

[Studyman]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

James 5: 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

According to the Same Holy Scriptures, who is a Righteous man?

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Jesus) is righteous.

How does a Righteous man pray according to the Jesus of the Bible?

Matt. 6: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast "shut thy door", pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

And what is the prayer of a righteous man, according to this same Jesus "of the Bible"?

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

A man can choose to be a Hearer only of the Christ's Words, or they can choose to be a "Doer" of Christ's Words. The point is, who is doing the praying? A "doer" or a "hearer only".

In Matt. 7, this Jesus "of the Bible" Prophesies about His return when "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord are judged. You can hear their argument in verses 22,23. I'll paraphrase, "But Jesus, don't you know who we are?" "We taught in your name. We built massive religious businesses and erected thousands of manmade shrines of worship in your name." I'm sure they also had prayer circles and prayed for their sick friends all in Christ's Name.

But what did the Jesus of the Bible tell them?

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work iniquity".

So it's safe and Biblically accurate to say that The effectual fervent prayer of a man who "works iniquity" availeth nothing, as the Christ of the Bible doesn't even know them, at least according to Scriptures.

It seems then, that if I want to help myself and others get Spiritually healed, the only healing that matters, I would choose to " yield myself servants to obey God, not the religions of this world I was born into. Why??? Because Paul teaches.

Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?

So I have free will to "Yield myself" a servant to obey whomever I choose, as Paul clearly states. In this way I can be healed. And I know HE hears me, because "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much".

Not that I am perfect, but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So to your post "when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for", a righteous person would pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And as the Christ prayed "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil".

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

There is a slight error in your post. You seem to think the " righteous man" would pray for something the reciever never asked for or even wants. After all, righteousness is just that! This line of thought brings about a conundrum that is unwarranted. Blessings.

 

[trophy33]

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

It will not change his free will, but his consent.

 

[Mr. M]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ,
greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers,
that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Since the Lord taught to pray "Thy Will Be Done", there can be no error
in praying for the same on behalf of others, for the scriptures state that
His Will is that all would be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

What is that "effectual prayer". One that acknowledges and relies upon
the promises of the Father, as fulfilled by the Holy Spirit.
John 16:
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous person convicts the hearts of those on whose
behalf the intercession is made, by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is one part of our relationship
with the Lord.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

[Oneofhope]

James 5: 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

According to the Same Holy Scriptures, who is a Righteous man?

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Jesus) is righteous.

How does a Righteous man pray according to the Jesus of the Bible?

Matt. 6: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast "shut thy door", pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

And what is the prayer of a righteous man, according to this same Jesus "of the Bible"?

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.



A man can choose to be a Hearer only of the Christ's Words, or they can choose to be a "Doer" of Christ's Words. The point is, who is doing the praying? A "doer" or a "hearer only".

In Matt. 7, this Jesus "of the Bible" Prophesies about His return when "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord are judged. You can hear their argument in verses 22,23. I'll paraphrase, "But Jesus, don't you know who we are?" "We taught in your name. We built massive religious businesses and erected thousands of manmade shrines of worship in your name." I'm sure they also had prayer circles and prayed for their sick friends all in Christ's Name.

But what did the Jesus of the Bible tell them?

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work iniquity".

So it's safe and Biblically accurate to say that The effectual fervent prayer of a man who "works iniquity" availeth nothing, as the Christ of the Bible doesn't even know them, at least according to Scriptures.

It seems then, that if I want to help myself and others get Spiritually healed, the only healing that matters, I would choose to " yield myself servants to obey God, not the religions of this world I was born into. Why??? Because Paul teaches.

Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?

So I have free will to "Yield myself" a servant to obey whomever I choose, as Paul clearly states. In this way I can be healed. And I know HE hears me, because "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much".

Not that I am perfect, but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So to your post "when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for", a righteous person would pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And as the Christ prayed "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, butthat thou shouldest keep them from the evil".

Thank you for all that you offered. I appreciate it. Question: Do you think that when a person prays to the Lord that another person changes their horrible behavior, and that if my prayers change that person without their consent, is their sense of free will violated since what caused them to change was not their own choice, but mine and the Lord's together?

 

[Oneofhope]

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ,
greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers,
that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Since the Lord taught to pray "Thy Will Be Done", there can be no error
in praying for the same on behalf of others, for the scriptures state that
His Will is that all would be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

What is that "effectual prayer". One that acknowledges and relies upon
the promises of the Father, as fulfilled by the Holy Spirit.
John 16:
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous person convicts the hearts of those on whose
behalf the intercession is made, by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is one part of our relationship
with the Lord.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Thank you for what you have offered. However, I don't see an answer to the question.

One of my very best friends married a woman who, when her 13-year-old daughter chose to be a runaway and become a professional prostitute, we prayed and prayed that she would make different choices and change her life. Each time she would be brought home, she would run away again. Once, she even robbed her own father.

Since this girl absolutely wants nothing to do with her former baptism, or God, if my prayers change her thinking against her will . . . well, is that possible?

 

[Oneofhope]

It will not change his free will, but his consent.

If my prayers change the life of a person beyond their consent, how is their sense of free will not violated?

 

[Mr. M]

Thank you for what you have offered. However, I don't see an answer to the question.

One of my very best friends married a woman who, when her 13-year-old daughter chose to be a runaway and become a professional prostitute, we prayed and prayed that she would make different choices and change her life. Each time she would be brought home, she would run away again. Once, she even robbed her own father.

Since this girl absolutely wants nothing to do with her former baptism, or God, if my prayers change her thinking against her will . . . well, is that possible?

I do not believe prayer alone can necessarily turn a person's heart. If you care for someone, show them that care, for that can make all the difference. As I described the hopeful outcome of prayer, the objective is that the Holy Spirit would direct her will to the Father's Will for her. Is that not the outcome for anyone who repents? Of course it is against her will when occupied by her carnal desires. We must show there is another way. Consider Paul's instruction here and see if you can apply it to your concern.
2 Timothy 2:
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance,
so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil,
having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Oneofhope]

I do not believe prayer alone can necessarily turn a person's heart. If you care for someone, show them that care, for that can make all the difference. As I described the hopeful outcome of prayer, the objective is that the Holy Spirit would direct her will to the Father's Will for her. Is that not the outcome for anyone who repents? Of course it is against her will when occupied by her carnal desires. We must show there is another way. Consider Paul's instruction here and see if you can apply it to your concern.
2 Timothy 2:
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance,
so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil,
having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[BPPLEE]

That is a very interesting question. Without thinking about that question some more, I am not sure what my answer to it would be.

I think someone has too much time on their hands

 

[Oneofhope]

I think someone has too much time on their hands

In my threads, we treat each other with kindness and respect. We do not goad one another, for that is anti-Christian. Do you understand?

 

[BPPLEE]

In my threads, we treat each other with kindness and respect. We do not goad one another, for that is anti-Christian. Do you understand?

I’m sorry that you take offense. I don’t mean to goad, it wouldn’t hurt for you to not take things so seriously though.
No matter how much I pray for someone or how many people pray for someone, they’re not going to get saved against their will.

 

[Dan Perez]

The Bible clearly states that when a Righteous person prays, their prayers are Effectual for the person they are praying for.

Does the Righteous man’s prayer violate the subject's sense of free will if the change came about without his or her consent?

I believe that were to instances of FREE WILL on the bible !!

#1 When Angels did not keep their first estate , in Jude 6 .

#2 Where Adam and Eve ere in the Garden ,

dan p

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for all that you offered. I appreciate it. Question: Do you think that when a person prays to the Lord that another person changes their horrible behavior, and that if my prayers change that person without their consent, is their sense of free will violated since what caused them to change was not their own choice, but mine and the Lord's together?

I don't think there is any evidence to support the assertion that a man didn't humble himself before God, because no righteous man prayed for him. Nor is there any evidence to support the assertion that a man turned to God from the heart, because some righteous man prayed for him.

The James verse posted pertains to those within the Body of Christ, not those who have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Those within the Church of God are there of their own free will. And those who are not, are also not there of their own free will.

Why would God instruct a man to confess his faults to those who condemned and killed members of God's Church?

Do you believe God would become a respecter of persons, just because you prayed for someone who despised HIM?

I don't think you have understood James here, and the assertion that your prayer would cause God to divert from His Word, and treat a man differently than other men, seems a little farfetched.

However, if a man within the Church of God starts to go astray, and those within His Church pray one for the other, The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

19 Brethren, if any of you (Members within the Body of Christ) do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But for those "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

To believe the prayer of a Righteous Man would even want to interrupt God's Judgment simply because he might know some of these men, I don't think you are really thinking this through.

That is why I posted how my Savior taught me to Pray. "Thy Will be Done". Not, "please spare these men who of their own free will despised you", because I know them.

 

[Oneofhope]

I’m sorry that you take offense. I don’t mean to goad, it wouldn’t hurt for you to not take things so seriously though.

I believe that were to instances of FREE WILL on the bible !!

#1 When Angels did not keep their first estate , in Jude 6 .

#2 Where Adam and Eve ere in the Garden ,

dan p

Hello Dan,

Do you believe that our prayers, since they are clearly Effectual, can alter a person's life against their permission? Can we violate a person's sense of free will in that way?

 

[Oneofhope]

I don't think there is any evidence to support the assertion that a man didn't humble himself before God, because no righteous man prayed for him. Nor is there any evidence to support the assertion that a man turned to God from the heart, because some righteous man prayed for him.

Thank you for all that you offered above.

Do you think, since our prayers are clearly Effectual in the lives of others, they violate the sense of free will of a person?