[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] What does the LDS church teach about God's nature?

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Jane_Doe

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I'm afraid these three people may be mistaken. When the Doctine and covenants first came out the book included the "Lectures on Faith" This had statements and a Q&A session, which included:
"There are two personages... the Father and the Son. The Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness"

It also said.
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two the Father and the Son.
Q How do you prove that there are two personages in the Godhead?
A. By the Scriptures.
Q. Do the Father and Son possess the same mind?
A. They do...
Q What is that mind?
A. The Holy Spirit.

All this seems at variance to your above statements.

Hello moleowner,

I don't know how familiar you are with Mormon theology, but one of the basic tenets is about how learning occurs. God doesn't come down and an instant-download everything into your head like a Matrix "I know kung fu" moment. Rather, learning occurs a little at a time step by step (or "line upon line" is the common expression), even for the leaders of the church.

The non-cannon passage you quoted is an excellent example of church leaders (in this case Joseph Smith) learning. They previously thought one thing (quoted above), but they later learned that they were wrong when God sent a corrective revelation, which is canonized in D&C 130:4--

"Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

Does that help out?
 
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moleowner

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Does this mean the 1835 Edition of the D&C was wrong when it said "..the lectures judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine;"
and
"Q. Does the forgoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation.
A. It does."

If the church(as you say) " previously thought one thing ....but they later learned that they were wrong", is correct for the Lectures, could this not also apply to the B.o.M.
What makes you think the lectures weren't cannonical?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Does this mean the 1835 Edition of the D&C was wrong when it said "..the lectures judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine;"
and
"Q. Does the forgoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation.
A. It does."

If the church(as you say) " previously thought one thing ....but they later learned that they were wrong", is correct for the Lectures, could this not also apply to the B.o.M.
What makes you think the lectures weren't cannonical?

I'm short on time here, but this should be able to help you: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Doctrine_and_Covenants_Editions
 
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moleowner

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Jane_Doe said:
I'm short on time here, but this should be able to help you: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Doctrine_and_Covenants_Editions
Well no! It seems to confirm my believe that the Lectures are scripture.
As your information says
"Renamed the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, the book was presented to, and accepted by, the members of the Church in an August 1835 conference as the word of God. The change in name to Doctrine and Covenants reflected a change in content. Unlike the Book of Commandments, which contained revelations only, the Doctrine and Covenants was divided into two parts. The new first part consisted of seven theological presentations now known as the Lectures on Faith but then titled "On the Doctrine of the Church of the Latter Day Saints."

So the Lectures seem to be the word of God.They were voted on by the church conference which I understand is a requirement to be judged as scripture, Whereas it took only six members of the council of twelve to remove them in 1921.

Also since this thread is about what the LDS teaches about Gods nature. People would probably still like to know if the God of the B.o.M. is also subject to the "revision clause" you seem to feel applies to the God of the Lectures. ie can the nature of God of the Book of Mormon change with later revelations.
 
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RestoredGospelEvidences

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Well no! It seems to confirm my believe that the Lectures are scripture.
As your information says
"Renamed the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, the book was presented to, and accepted by, the members of the Church in an August 1835 conference as the word of God. The change in name to Doctrine and Covenants reflected a change in content. Unlike the Book of Commandments, which contained revelations only, the Doctrine and Covenants was divided into two parts. The new first part consisted of seven theological presentations now known as the Lectures on Faith but then titled "On the Doctrine of the Church of the Latter Day Saints."

So the Lectures seem to be the word of God.They were voted on by the church conference which I understand is a requirement to be judged as scripture, Whereas it took only six members of the council of twelve to remove them in 1921.

Also since this thread is about what the LDS teaches about Gods nature. People would probably still like to know if the God of the B.o.M. is also subject to the "revision clause" you seem to feel applies to the God of the Lectures. ie can the nature of God of the Book of Mormon change with later revelations.

What eventually becomes "scriptures" & "official doctrines," in the Mormon church is always subject to changes allowed by prophets & apostles that come along, and at times, clarify, or put an end to different ways things might have been done in the past. The church is not subjected to things set in stone, but believes in progressive revealed insights as modern prophets can change, or clarify what went before. Thus, it's the current practice of the church that constitutes the interpretation of the scriptures. As is often the case, someone often comes along & attempts to hold Mormons to everything some leader, or some earlier program, or conference gathering did & voted on. Then, say, "Hey, this was said, or that was done by your earlier leaders & members, so why isn't done, or accepted now? The answer is: The current pratice of the Church constitutes the interpretation of the scriptures. For example, all the scriptures & sayings of the prophets before Noah, didn't, or wouldn't have helped the people of Noah's day, they had to accept what Noah said & did, as it was spoken by God through Noah, the current prophet of his day. Same with today. When Jesus started teaching his current "word of God," many of his time were upset, thinking he was "destroying the prophets," when he was fulfilling them. Paul came along & announced changes too, to discontinue many things of the Mosaic laws, these changes were argued over at a council (Gal. 1-2, etc.) So, changes are allowed also, according to Article of Faith 9: We believe all that God has revealed, All he reveals now, & that he will yet reveal many things pertaining to the kingdom of God in the future. (Not an exact quote, but that's the whole point). Line upon line, here a little, there a little, as Isaiah said.

Thus, if later developments have brought about changes from the Book of Commandments, to the later Doctrine & Covenants, & further explanations have brought new insights about the Godhead & their nature, or even about there being a family in heaven that includes a Heavenly Mother. Such things are to be expected as new light & knowledge comes from current & future Mormon Prophets & Apostles. Thus, we aren't troubled by such things about differences in doctrinal positions changing, as further insights are added to the bigger gospel picture.

See also: This link.
 
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moleowner

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Restored Gospel Evidences said:
As is often the case, someone often comes along & attempts to hold Mormons to everything some leader, or some earlier program, or conference gathering did & voted on. Then, say, "Hey, this was said, or that was done by your earlier leaders & members, so why isn't done, or accepted now?
I'm not saying you should believe God is a Spirit and that The Holy Ghost is the mind of God & Jesus because of what a conference said but because the August 1835 conference (actually the 17th August if anyone is interested) wrote down what God said, as you are lucky enough to have a living prophet amoungst you.

So I am saying God said he was a spirit. I'll grant you God can add to his revelations and clarify them as Jane-Doe seems to imply quoting D&C 130:4. This (D&C130)may be a typo as it mentions men on planets and the civil war prophecy. But I doubt God would change a revelation from saying he was a spirit to saying he now has a physical body.
Unless you are saying God was spirit and has now changed to having a physical body sometime in the 1835 to 1844 time frame.

The Lectures and the D&C were both accepted as being Gods word at the conference.

Was the 1835 Lectures a statement from God? And if not what does constitute statements from God?
 
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Ironhold

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This (D&C130)may be a typo as it mentions men on planets

Is this what you're referring to?

6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;

7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.



As far as the Civil War prophecy goes -

If you'll look at military history, you'll see that since the 1860s there's been armed conflict somewhere in the world at any given time; the world hasn't known peace since the Confederates fired those first shots. In that sense, the prophecy did come true in that it predicted a constant state of warfare, rather than "the civil war spilling out internationally".
 
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moleowner

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Well no I was thinking more of verse 4

"4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?"

I don't really want to make an issue of this I was just pointing out that Jane_Doe may have been refering to another verse. She was refering to corrective revelations.

The civil war prophecy I would be interested in commenting on, perhaps you would like to start a thread?

But I'm still trying to find out why God said he was a spirit, and if so, can he later say he has a physical body.
 
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Ironhold

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Well no I was thinking more of verse 4

"4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?"

I don't really want to make an issue of this I was just pointing out that Jane_Doe may have been refering to another verse. She was refering to corrective revelations.

The civil war prophecy I would be interested in commenting on, perhaps you would like to start a thread?

But I'm still trying to find out why God said he was a spirit, and if so, can he later say he has a physical body.

Which passage has God saying that he's a spirit?
 
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moleowner

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None of D&C 130 mentions God being a spirit. The issue of D&C 130 coming up at all is only because Jane_Doe, said Post #61
"
The non-cannon passage you quoted is an excellent example of church leaders (in this case Joseph Smith) learning. They previously thought one thing (quoted above), but they later learned that they were wrong when God sent a corrective revelation, which is canonized in D&C 130:4--".
I assumed (maybe wrongly) that she had put down the wrong section as this section doesn't seem to involve corrective revelation.

Ironhold said:
Which passage has God saying that he's a spirit?
Just to clarify I am not saying D&C 130 has anything to do with this issue.

God said that he was spirit when as Jane's reference said in reference to the 1835 D&C and Lectures
"the book was presented to, and accepted by, the members of the Church in an August 1835 conference as the word of God.

These lectures accepted as Gods word with Joseph Smith presenting them and having them published along with the D&C sections, said

"There are two personages... the Father and the Son. The Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness"
It also said.
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two the Father and the Son.
Q How do you prove that there are two personages in the Godhead?
A. By the Scriptures.
Q. Do the Father and Son possess the same mind?
A. They do...
Q What is that mind?
A. The Holy Spirit.

"..the lectures judiciously arranged and compiled, and were profitable for doctrine;"
and
"Q. Does the forgoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation.
A. It does."

The same conference, the same procedure, the same Prophet and the same God speaking through Joseph Smith that gave you the cannonised D&C also gave Smith the Lectures that mentions God being a spirit, to put in the same book.
 
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Ironhold

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It is in John's Gospel.

It's only there in the KJV rendering, which was the dominant English translation at the time Joseph Smith lived.

Many newer translations, like the RSV, render the verse as "God is Spirit", which has far different implications.
 
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smaneck

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It's only there in the KJV rendering, which was the dominant English translation at the time Joseph Smith lived.

Many newer translations, like the RSV, render the verse as "God is Spirit", which has far different implications.

Young's literal translation also reads "God is a spirit."
 
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Ran77

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I'm afraid these three people may be mistaken. When the Doctine and covenants first came out the book included the "Lectures on Faith" This had statements and a Q&A session, which included:
"There are two personages... the Father and the Son. The Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness"

It also said.
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two the Father and the Son.
Q How do you prove that there are two personages in the Godhead?
A. By the Scriptures.
Q. Do the Father and Son possess the same mind?
A. They do...
Q What is that mind?
A. The Holy Spirit.

All this seems at variance to your above statements.

I was not mistaken.


:)
 
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moleowner

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I must apologise to Jane_Doe and Ironhold a bit. I knew they claimed God had a body of flesh but I didn't realise "D&C130:4.." was where they claimed it was written and there it is down the bottom, verse 22

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

So as the amature Mormon expert I can explain, their Godhead.

It appears God was a spirit in 1830 and 1835. Since there appeares to be no differentiation between the canonisation of the D&C and the Lectures, which explain that God was a spirit and the Holy Gost the mind of Jesus and God. However by 1843 God had changed himself to having a body of flesh. We have Gods word on both these statements.

I don't presume to speak on behalf on Mormons but I hope this explains the LDS teachings on God's nature to the readers here. If I have got anything wrong please let me know, and why I am wrong.
 
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