Not at all. But I believe John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies regarding Elijah's return just as I believe the Bab fulfilled the prophecies regarding Christ's return.
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[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] What does the LDS church teach about God's nature?
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Not at all. But I believe John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies regarding Elijah's return just as I believe the Bab fulfilled the prophecies regarding Christ's return.
No, I would not agree that men lack emotions. They obviously don't lack the capacity to get mad. If they did, there wouldn't be so much domestic abuse.
Exactly my point. They banned both blacks and women from the priesthood.
I think evangelicals object to the idea of their being a Heavenly Mother in the first place. I just think if you are going to have one she should be of equal status and not hidden off in the corner somewhere. But if you don't know, you don't know. I'm not sure what you mean by God being a God of order. How is that relevant?
"We believe that if a person blasphemes against the Holy Ghost that this person had to have a perfect knowledge of Christ and still deny or go against that knowledge. A person can see with their eyes and feel with their hands Christ but if a person has had a spiritually awakening as to spirit to spirit the confirmation of Christ and then deny that knowledge then there is no forgiveness. So sort of the same thing."
Yep. Pretty much. Although I people can lose faith and I don't assume that everyone who loses their faith has therefore sinned against the Holy Spirit.
Exactly my point. They banned both blacks and women from the priesthood.
I think evangelicals object to the idea of their being a Heavenly Mother in the first place. I just think if you are going to have one she should be of equal status and not hidden off in the corner somewhere. But if you don't know, you don't know. I'm not sure what you mean by God being a God of order. How is that relevant?
"We believe that if a person blasphemes against the Holy Ghost that this person had to have a perfect knowledge of Christ and still deny or go against that knowledge. A person can see with their eyes and feel with their hands Christ but if a person has had a spiritually awakening as to spirit to spirit the confirmation of Christ and then deny that knowledge then there is no forgiveness. So sort of the same thing."
Yep. Pretty much. Although I people can lose faith and I don't assume that everyone who loses their faith has therefore sinned against the Holy Spirit.
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Isn't blaspheming the Holy Ghost the "unforgivable" sin(Mt 12:31)? Also where does the Holy Ghost fit into the Mormon scheme of things?
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fatboys
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The Holy Ghost is the third member of the godhead. It is the comforter and revealer of truth. It guides us when we ask God for guidance. It confirms to us what is truth and what is error. I have described what the Holy Ghost feels like when I teach about it. I ask them if they remember when they were young and got hurt or scared and we would run to our mother and she would hold us in her arms. The hurt was still there but we felt safe and a sense of peace. We would be comforted. Our father could hold us and comfort us but it is not like a mother.
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Correct. However few people have perfect enough knowledge of God to commit this blaspheme.
Fatboys already gave a good explanation of this, but I'll add some basic background too--
Mormons do not believe that God is three individuals all made up of one *substance*, as described in the 4th century Nicean creed. Rather, Mormons believe that God is three individuals of one *purpose* and 300% united. The three individuals so united are--
God the Father, Father and creator of our souls and our world.
God the Christ, Jesus the Savior of the World
God the Holy Ghost (aka Holy Spirit), whom dwells within us, testifies of Truth, and comforts.
Heavenly Mother is not included above simply because we know next nothing about Her. One day God will reveal more.
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BigDaddy4
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I would think that for a thread titled "What does the LDS church teach about God's nature?" the couplet "As man is, God once was..." would be discussed. After all, eternal progression is how their version of god came to be and seems to be what the lds strive for. It would seem that would be an important tidbit about "God's nature".
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GracetotheHumble
Theology of the Cross
I already told you that DNA research indicates that Native Americans are descended from Asians not Israelites.
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Sure, we can talk about that BigDaddy. I’m going to keep things short here, but feel free to ask for any elaboration.
Though, I’m going to preface this by stating the this couplet is *not* official Mormon doctrine. It’s not in scripture, infalliable, “Thus saith the Lord” or anything like that. Individual Mormons are not “obligated” to believe this, nor is it actually talked about in church. You could say that the couplet is a non-official reflection of historical Mormon theology/philosophy, and that would be true.
Now on to the couplet itself (Note, I’m just speaking as my individual interpretation of things)—
“As man now is, God once was:”
“As God now is, man may be.”
- Lorenzo Snow, former President of the LDS church. From a sermon ~1895.
The first line of the couplet we know effectively nothing about (LDS believe that God has many great things yet to reveal to us), so I’ll say nothing where nothing is known.
As to the second line speaks of man potential to become like our Father in Heaven. The basic idea is that we (humans) each try our hardest to emulate God: His goodness, justify, mercy, love, etc. Now, in this life we fall massively short all the time, but through Christ’s atonement we do grow and (hopefully) do better. After this life, we will be perfected—ie “complete” in God, sharing all that He has and emulating Him. We will have that perfect love, justice, mercy, etc.
Here’s a really good essay on the topic too, https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng
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1. Haplogroup X would like to have a word with you.
2. Even aside from what the church teaches, there are individual tribes whose tribal legends stipulate some sort of descendency from various Hebrew peoples.
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BigDaddy4
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It's not my thread or question. I was only suggesting that any serious discussion by the OP and the lds it was directed toward should probably include this.
And, btw,
is incorrect. It's in the official teaching manuals and on the official website. Would the lds website promote false doctrine?
https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-2/lesson-1-who-am-i?lang=eng&query=as+man+is
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-2?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng
Just to name a few.. And don't forget about D&C 130:22 (which IS official doctrine):
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
But I wasn't invited to the party, being a Nicene Christian and all...
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fatboys
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I think what she was saying is that you seldom hear it spoke about from the pulpit. It is more like our desire to become like the Father. Which is essentially the same thing. But it is not doctrine. I'm not sure why the verse you quoted has to do with the other. Perhaps you can elaborate
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BigDaddy, of course you're welcome here (unless you're just trolling of course 
).
When I mean "not actively talked about in church" I mean (warning I'm a math person)--
In the last decade, an active Mormon would spend 1740 hours at church services (excluded youth groups and other extra activities). Of those 1740 hours, this lesson (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-2?lang=eng) was taught for 40 minutes, or 0.034% of the time. This lesson (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng) was taught for 0 minutes, because it's not actually a lesson (though I do think it's an awesome essay). This lesson (https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-2/lesson-1-who-am-i?lang=eng&query=as+man+is) I cannot speak of because it pre-dates my time in the youth program (they redid the curriculum a few years ago). Overall I would say that this particular topic is discussed <0.10% of the time in Mormon church.
This is disjointed from the couplet topic, but we can talked about it if you'd like. Did you have any particular questions/interest? (Seems strange for me to just randomly start babbling...)
).When I mean "not actively talked about in church" I mean (warning I'm a math person)--
In the last decade, an active Mormon would spend 1740 hours at church services (excluded youth groups and other extra activities). Of those 1740 hours, this lesson (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-2?lang=eng) was taught for 40 minutes, or 0.034% of the time. This lesson (https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng) was taught for 0 minutes, because it's not actually a lesson (though I do think it's an awesome essay). This lesson (https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-2/lesson-1-who-am-i?lang=eng&query=as+man+is) I cannot speak of because it pre-dates my time in the youth program (they redid the curriculum a few years ago). Overall I would say that this particular topic is discussed <0.10% of the time in Mormon church.
This is disjointed from the couplet topic, but we can talked about it if you'd like. Did you have any particular questions/interest? (Seems strange for me to just randomly start babbling...)
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RestoredGospelEvidences
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The ? is asked if Mormons worship a Divine Mother, as they do a Heavenly Father. That is an individual thing, which wouldn't be "out lawed" if some, if not many were to so do. However, there's not much revealed about "the Mother in Heaven," yet. But that is not to say that our modern prophets are forbidden to one day reveal more information about Her. One of the speculative reasons why such information is in reserves, at this time is because of how God our Father doesn't want her name taken in vain as His is way too often. Or to have Her also mocked, rejected & used as a curse word. Today's street talks language is terrible as it is, & the movies, music & books are filled with Mother-F--- this, Mother F---- that, as we all know. Thus, I suspect until this world changes & repents in these areas, God our Heavenly Father is going to continue to hold back revealing more information about our Heavenly Mother. That's just one traditional answer that I've heard in the Mormon church, while growing up. To me it make sense. That being said, we also have been taught & believe that there is a family in heaven, as there is on earth. The family on earth consists of Fathers, Mothers, Sons & Daughters, with a long ever increasing lines of descendants that goes back through the generations of time, & that consists of Fathers & Mothers that goes back to Adam & Eve, the first physical parents on earth. As there is this long line of parents & children here, so also is there in the heavens. We even have passages of scriptures that suggests that the inhabitants of other worlds are also part of the Divine Parents' sons & daughters too.
"...And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, [Jesus Christ], this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God...." (Doctrine & Covenants, 76:22-24).
As there is no end to life forms of all types here on this world, so also is there no end to different types of life forms, including humans, on other inhabited worlds too. But Mormons are not the only ones talking about this, for it's something that those who have Near Death Experiences also talk about seeing too, like in the case with former Atheist, now Rev. Howard Storm. (Read the rare type script of his experience by scrolling down the pages to the gray color ones here). In short, he was shown different types of life forms, animal, human, etc., on different worlds, & said that there are school types worlds out there where spirits go to learn things in the physical, to have physical experiences. He also talked about how that we have it with in us to eventually become co-creators with the gods throughout the universe that is without beginning or end. Christian NDEr, George G. Ritchie, also talked about deification too, & quotes from early Christian father, Irenaeus & others about deification too, in his books about his NDE, Return From Tomorrow, & his other: My Life After Dying.
You asked about the Jewish version of a Mother in Heaven, and God having a wife. I suspect that it was during the time when victorious factions, who had no greater claim to authority than their own worldly power, that the Old Testament was revised by triumphant Yahwists during the "Deuteronomic Reform" (ca. 620-400 B.C). The Yahwists completely altered the theology of Israel's ancestors, just as latter "orthodoxy" controlled the making of "Christianity", and the New Testament by selecting what agreed with its own Hellenizing attitudes. Historical research shows that there was no monotheism at all in Israel before the onset of the Yahwist Revolution! Early Israelites--including the Patriarchs, & at least two-thirds of the kings during the period of the first Temple--were avowed polytheists. The Old Testament manuscripts were subjected to revision in the texts, known as the "Deuteronomic Revision". This was done in order to bring the traditional texts into harmony with the thinking of an emerging new "Judaism". Some of the Deuteronomy texts were altered & changed by 621 B.C., when the old religion of Israel faded out of the picture to make room for the beginning of a new "Judaism". Some time after 621 B.C., the history of Israel was rewritten & replaced with a history that would go along with the alternate views points of the this movement. Other books had some "retouching" done in them also. In 600 B.C., 1st editions "Kings" contained elements of evidences that showed a pre-reformed religion, but by about 550 B.C. the books from Genesis to Kings were also altered to fit into the new views. During the Deuteronomic Reformation, other "independent divine figures" were also suppressed. Thus, I wonder if also references to a Divine Mother, could have also been taken out too. In my own studies of different versions of the bible, I know that there are earlier bibles that include scriptures & passages that were quoted by earlier Christian fathers, but of which are not now in present day bibles. But that's a whole other subject & thread. Earlier Jewish beliefs are filled with the concepts about a pre-existence, war in heaven, & family in heaven too. (The Book of Enoch translations. See also: Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), three volumes in one. The chapter on the War in Heaven is interesting).
Do Mormons believe they will have their own "spirit children,"? Eventually in the after life eternities, YES! Mormons' version of deification = becoming gods or goddesses (gods for the males), & (goddesses for the females), is different than what we find in historic Christianity. Perhaps it's different because Mormons testify to have modern Prophets & Apostles, who reveal new & extended insights beyond what others before them did, (or at least that which have been preserved correctly of the ancient prophetic words). Also, Mormons' versions of deification, called exaltation, is, a revealed version through modern inspired prophets, where as historic Christians' versions, were what they understood was revealed through Christ & his Apostles. The earlier versions were eventually expounded upon, as passage after passage of scriptures were used, & commented upon by the early to later Christian fathers, according to their own versions & interpretations of deification, theosis & Christian moral perfection. As to the Mormon versions, here are some sources to consider on this. One of the best talks on this, I think, was given by the LDS Prophet, Spencer W. Kimbal, in General Conference, April 1977, entitled: Our Great Potential.
"...God has taken these intelligences, given to them spirit bodies, and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions. Then came the periods of time when souls were to be placed upon the earth and born to parents who were permitted to furnish the bodies. But no parent has ever yet on this earth been the parent of a spirit, because we are so far yet from perfection. Remember what was said a while ago, that “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” They came with the definite understanding that they could return to become like God and go forward in their great development and progress." Further on Kimball said: "Could you produce a spirit? Has anyone whom you know ever produced a spirit? This is a power not given to mortal man, so there is much for us to learn. “We have not the power in the flesh to create and bring forth or produce a spirit [with all the vaunted knowledge of the experts in the world, this has not been given to man]; but we have the power to produce [with the help of God] a temporal body [for our children]. The germ of this, God has placed within us. … Herein, brethren, you can perceive that we have not finished, and cannot finish our work, while we live here [on the earth], no more than Jesus did while he was in the flesh.” (JD, 15:137.)..." Thus, as Kimball points out, it's in the after life realms, as Fathers & Mothers advance together towards higher levels of perfection, glory, & become co-creators with the other Divine Parents, that they will also have spirit children too. This is a version of deification that goes way beyond historic Christians' versions of theosis, Christian moral perfection, or deification. Perhaps because it is new modern revelation by modern Prophets, as Mormons testify is the case. Thus, though early to later Christians wrote & debated over what perfection & them becoming gods & goddesses, they didn't present these aspects that Mormon prophets & apostles have.
Another source is from LDS Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie, also presents the profound concept of what is going on in the universe, which has no beginning & no end & the whole point of the creation of worlds & life without end: "...When the elect are exalted, when the family unit continues in the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom, when the saints have spirit children in the resurrection, then the cycle begins again.... Exalted parents are to their children as our Eternal Parents are to us. Eternal increase, a continuation of the seeds forever & ever, eternal lives--these comprise the eternal family of those who gain eternal life. For them new earths are created, & thus the on-rolling purposes of the Gods of Heaven go forward from eternity to eternity...." (The Millennial Messiah, 1982, (Deseret Bk.), p.27, #7, The 7th Age--Eternity Begins Anew).
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Ironhold said:
Ran77 said:
Fatboys said:
I'm afraid these three people may be mistaken. When the Doctine and covenants first came out the book included the "Lectures on Faith" This had statements and a Q&A session, which included:
"There are two personages... the Father and the Son. The Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness"
It also said.
Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
A. Two the Father and the Son.
Q How do you prove that there are two personages in the Godhead?
A. By the Scriptures.
Q. Do the Father and Son possess the same mind?
A. They do...
Q What is that mind?
A. The Holy Spirit.
All this seems at variance to your above statements.
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