Perfection

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Does God require us to be perfect before him?

If so, what does this mean? Does it mean that we are to be sinless? Does it mean we must no longer commit wrong or sinful acts?

In another thread I've had someone say that not only must we be perfect, but that he actually knows people that are perfect and sinless!

I find this exceedingly hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that someone can lead a sinless life, with or without the Holy Spirit. Everyone is prone to selfishness, coveting, and sinful actions.

If we are to be sinless before God in our deeds, then does that not reduce Christianity to a works-based religion?

Or is our "perfection before God" seen to be ontologically true via Jesus' forgiveness regardless of the lack of manifestation in our day-to-day lives?

 

[Hentenza]

Does God require us to be perfect before him?

Before Him we will be perfect since he declared the believer righteous by His grace through the sacrifice of the Son.

If so, what does this mean? Does it mean that we are to be sinless? Does it mean we must no longer commit wrong or sinful acts?

All sin. Only Christ did not sin. The believer is convicted by the Spirit dwelling in Him/Her but removing the power of sin takes a lifetime and is not completed until after our physical death when the presence of sin is fully removed through glorification.

In another thread I've had someone say that not only must we be perfect, but that he actually knows people that are perfect and sinless!

Those that preach sinless perfection in this life has not looked at themselves in the mirror.

I find this exceedingly hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that someone can lead a sinless life, with or without the Holy Spirit. Everyone is prone to selfishness, coveting, and sinful actions.

You are correct.

If we are to be sinless before God in our deeds, then does that not reduce Christianity to a works-based religion?

Only if one claims that their deeds are what saved them instead of the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.

Or is our "perfection before God" seen to be ontologically true via Jesus' forgiveness regardless of the lack of manifestation in our day-to-day lives?

This is close. God declared the believer righteous in His eyes while the believer is still a sinner. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins which means that our God given righteousness manifests in good deeds. The deeds are the result of salvation not a necessity for salvation.

 

[ChristianT]

No one is perfect and no one is or can be sinless. I only know one man that was ever sinless in the history of the universe, and His name is Jesus of course. Otherwise, humans can NOT be sinless. When we are saved by the blood of Christ, our mediator, He cleanses us of our sinfulness, and to G*d, the blood of Christ which covers us 'reminds' Him to forget the sin that we were once enshrouded in. Basically it's like He sees only the good that we have done because the sin we have committed until Judgement Day has already been paid for in Christ's sacrifice. While we are on Earth though, we still sin but we as Christians must remember that Christ died for our future sins if we repent and continue to love and follow Him.

I think it's still in my sig, but it's said perfectly:
"Formed by God, deformed by satan (by sins through temptation), transformed by Christ.(through His sacrifice)"

We aren't transformed into perfection yet, as we might still sin and slip from our righteousness(given to us by G*d), but that's why we should rely on G*d and His righteousness, grace, and love than ourselves and our righteousness as compared to G*d's, ours is like filthy rags.

 

[aiki]

Does God require us to be perfect before him?

Yes, but we cannot meet this requirement, which God knows. This is why He sent His Son to die for us.

If so, what does this mean? Does it mean that we are to be sinless? Does it mean we must no longer commit wrong or sinful acts?

Sinless perfection is not attainable by any human. However, a mature Christian gives evidence of his/her maturity by the decrease in sin in his/her life. Sin should become increasingly the exception to the rule in one who is going deeper with God. It will never be fully eradicated until one reaches heaven, but sin should significantly diminish as one walks rightly with one's Maker.

In another thread I've had someone say that not only must we be perfect, but that he actually knows people that are perfect and sinless!

I'm afraid this is impossible.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I find this exceedingly hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that someone can lead a sinless life, with or without the Holy Spirit. Everyone is prone to selfishness, coveting, and sinful actions.

Well, don't swing too far in the other direction and imagine that sin cannot be significantly diminished in the life of a believer. It can.

If we are to be sinless before God in our deeds, then does that not reduce Christianity to a works-based religion?

I suppose. However, our acceptance with God is based, not on our conduct, but upon God's forensic application of Christ's perfect righteousness to us. This is what is known as justification. God accepts us because we have "put on Christ" and have been clothed in his perfect righteousness.

Or is our "perfection before God" seen to be ontologically true via Jesus' forgiveness regardless of the lack of manifestation in our day-to-day lives?

Christ himself said that a tree is known by its fruit. Righteous deeds don't secure salvation but they do give evidence of genuine conversion. We can't be sinlessly perfect and for those who are new creatures in Christ we don't need to be. God accepts us as a result of our faith in Christ as our Savior and Lord through which Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

Selah.

 

[elman]

Does God require us to be perfect before him?

If so, what does this mean? Does it mean that we are to be sinless? Does it mean we must no longer commit wrong or sinful acts?

In another thread I've had someone say that not only must we be perfect, but that he actually knows people that are perfect and sinless!

I find this exceedingly hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that someone can lead a sinless life, with or without the Holy Spirit. Everyone is prone to selfishness, coveting, and sinful actions.

If we are to be sinless before God in our deeds, then does that not reduce Christianity to a works-based religion?

Or is our "perfection before God" seen to be ontologically true via Jesus' forgiveness regardless of the lack of manifestation in our day-to-day lives?

We all sin and fall short---none perfect. This is why grace is so important. What is so bad about someone who tries to be loving and please God?

 

[ephraimanesti]

If it is impossible for a fully surrendered Christian to be perfect and sinless, why is our duty to become so stressed over and over in God's written Word?--

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, 'You shall holy as I am holy." I Peter 1:15, 16)

"Make every effort to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

"For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life." (I Thessalonians 4:7)

"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure." (I John 3:3)

"We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin." (Romans 6.6)

"Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." (Romans 6:12)

"We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:2)

"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the sinful misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13)

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature. . . .)." (Colossians 3:5)

"Make every effort to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace with Him." (II Peter 3:14)

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin; . . ." (I John 2:1)

"You were taught . . . to put off your old self . . . to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true sinlessness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:22-24)

"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)

"Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

"What a strange kind of salvation do they desire that care not for holiness. . . . They would be saved by Christ and yet be out of Christ in a fleshly state. . . . They would have their sins forgiven, not that they may walk with God in love, but that they may practice their enmity against Him without any fear of punishment." -- Walter Marshall (1692)

 

[drich0150]

Does God require us to be perfect before him?

Only the righteous can stand before God. To be righteous by one's own efforts, one must be without sin.

If so, what does this mean? Does it mean that we are to be sinless? Does it mean we must no longer commit wrong or sinful acts?

In another thread I've had someone say that not only must we be perfect, but that he actually knows people that are perfect and sinless!

I honestly do not know of anyone who could say this. Are you sure that was what was being communicated?

I find this exceedingly hard to believe. I find it hard to believe that someone can lead a sinless life, with or without the Holy Spirit. Everyone is prone to selfishness, coveting, and sinful actions.

As per Paul works in Romans.

If we are to be sinless before God in our deeds, then does that not reduce Christianity to a works-based religion?

yes

Or is our "perfection before God" seen to be ontologically true via Jesus' forgiveness regardless of the lack of manifestation in our day-to-day lives?

This is not a matter of metaphysics.
maybe you could rephrase.

 

[talitha]

As long as we are alive on this planet, we are being sanctified (made right before God). Being right before God is not always the same as being right before people. Many times things that those around us judge us for are not sins. Sins are merely things that displease God. Another factor of this is that God allows things to happen around us and to us that bring sinful behaviors to the surface where they can be dealt with - this might even make us appear to be even more sinful than the others around us, but it is still the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that is going on.

And another thing.

Even though this sanctification is going on, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit in us, this is not the main point of Christianity. The main point is to bring us into a good relationship with the Father, so that we will be able to experience His life, both now and in the life to come.....

Gotta runnnn

 

[ephraimanesti]

When i sin, it is because i have CHOSEN disobedience over obedience and have willingly and willfully elected to sin against the Love and Grace of Abba, and NOT because Adam fell or because i am weak, confused, or have been tricked or overpowered by the evil one.

My transgressions are my own responsibility because my Lord Jesus has provided me with all the tools necessary to avoid or overcome them, and i, alone, will have to answer for these willful sins for what they in truth are--a slap in the face to a Loving Father for which no valid excuses can be rendered.

MAY GOD HAVE MERCY!

ephraim

 

[bling]

It has been a while but the Greek word "teleos" means: complete, mature, one, together, perfect,

 

[Emmy]

Dear leftrightleftrightleft. Jesus told us: " be ye perfect as God is perfect." God is Love, perfect Love. We are on Eartg to learn to become as God wants us to be: Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ALSO: Love our neighbour as ourselves. What does that mean? We start by treating all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated: kindly and with friendly words, helpful hands and to forgive as God has forgiven us: Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour, (all others, friends and not friends) loving them as we love ourselves: i.e. treat them as we would love to be treated. God sees our sincere efforts to love and care, and God will approve and bless us.
Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love, also. Jesus told us to: " ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. God will also notice that we love God. How?? By following God`s Commandments to love and care.
The Bible also tells us: " Repent," change from being selfish and unloving, to being loving and caring: Everything we say or do, should be done lovingly and with compassion. Love is a Christian`s great weapon, and Love is very catching. Love is not only a " feel-good" factor, love is also a doing-word, and it changes people and happenings. It may not come easy to us, but it grows on us, and before we realise, we are the people which God wants to be with, for eternity. We will stumble and forget, but then we get up, ask God to forgive us, and carry on. God will forgive us, as we will forgive others.
Jesus our Saviour, will be waiting to guide us back to where we came from. I say this with love, leftrightleft etc. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. God is perfect Love, and let us try to become perfecly loving.

 

[Asvin]

Jesus told us to be perfect because the father in heaven is perfect! We know from the Old Testament that we are a fallen creation that is not perfect, the way God intended us to be.. So what can we conclude from this? Jesus actually means that we should follow his path and look at his life.. We should do the things he did, mainly to love and forgive.. We should live for others.. Doing so, is perfection, in God's eyes.. So Jesus basically told us to strive for perfection!

God bless!

 

[elman]

No one is perfect and no one is or can be sinless. I only know one man that was ever sinless in the history of the universe, and His name is Jesus of course. Otherwise, humans can NOT be sinless. When we are saved by the blood of Christ, our mediator, He cleanses us of our sinfulness, and to G*d, the blood of Christ which covers us 'reminds' Him to forget the sin that we were once enshrouded in. Basically it's like He sees only the good that we have done because the sin we have committed until Judgement Day has already been paid for in Christ's sacrifice. While we are on Earth though, we still sin but we as Christians must remember that Christ died for our future sins if we repent and continue to love and follow Him.

I think it's still in my sig, but it's said perfectly:
"Formed by God, deformed by satan (by sins through temptation), transformed by Christ.(through His sacrifice)"

We aren't transformed into perfection yet, as we might still sin and slip from our righteousness(given to us by G*d), but that's why we should rely on G*d and His righteousness, grace, and love than ourselves and our righteousness as compared to G*d's, ours is like filthy rags.

I don't see Satan being to blame for our sins. We are responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18.

 

[elman]

As long as we are alive on this planet, we are being sanctified (made right before God). Being right before God is not always the same as being right before people. Many times things that those around us judge us for are not sins. Sins are merely things that displease God. Another factor of this is that God allows things to happen around us and to us that bring sinful behaviors to the surface where they can be dealt with - this might even make us appear to be even more sinful than the others around us, but it is still the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that is going on.

And another thing.

Even though this sanctification is going on, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit in us, this is not the main point of Christianity. The main point is to bring us into a good relationship with the Father, so that we will be able to experience His life, both now and in the life to come.....

Gotta runnnn

Yes sin displeases God. Sin is being unloving to others. It is failing to obey the command to love.

 

[ChristianT]

I don't see Satan being to blame for our sins. We are responsible for our own sins. Ezekiel 18.

But the idea of sinning isn't our own. Nor is it G*d's. Satan didn't make or force us to sin, he only showed us something that is pleasing to the eye of man throughout the ages, which is better known as temptation. The devil also accuses us of sins which have happened in the past. This is not the same as conviction of the Holy Spirit as conviction leads to repentance which along with the grace and help of G*d, leads to sanctification. Accusations are meant to stir up guilt for the believer and born again to try and make them think they aren't really saved from the sin.

Yes we are responsible for our sins, but we don't have that ol' fashion' perception of conviction and accusation. (the little angel on the left shoulder and the little devil on the right shoulder), no we simply have a fork, a sign, and a horizon. The fork in the road is between sinning and obeying G*d, the sign is the Bible which points our what is sinful, the horizon is what we see happen to those who sin and those who obey G*d.

 

[elman]

But the idea of sinning isn't our own. Nor is it G*d's. Satan didn't make or force us to sin, he only showed us something that is pleasing to the eye of man throughout the ages, which is better known as temptation. The devil also accuses us of sins which have happened in the past. This is not the same as conviction of the Holy Spirit as conviction leads to repentance which along with the grace and help of G*d, leads to sanctification. Accusations are meant to stir up guilt for the believer and born again to try and make them think they aren't really saved from the sin.

Yes we are responsible for our sins, but we don't have that ol' fashion' perception of conviction and accusation. (the little angel on the left shoulder and the little devil on the right shoulder), no we simply have a fork, a sign, and a horizon. The fork in the road is between sinning and obeying G*d, the sign is the Bible which points our what is sinful, the horizon is what we see happen to those who sin and those who obey G*d.

The bottom line is the devil did not make you do it.

 

[ChristianT]

 

[ephraimanesti]

"Holiness is not a series of do's and don'ts, but total conformity to the character of God and complete obedience to the will of God." -- from The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.

 

[ephraimanesti]

ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Good quote. However it does not apply to the discussion at hand in that it is part of the Old Testament which was written well before the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus the Christ.

What Christ accomplished for us on Calvary was the forgiveness of our sins, the death of our old sinful man, our rebirth to a new life in Christ, and our receipt of the indwelling Holy Spirit to facilitate our successful striving for holiness in our lives. "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)

THEN--no righteous was possible.

NOW--our righteousness is demanded.

May you be blessed to partake!

ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim