ephraimanesti

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Isn't there a difference between striving for perfection and actually being literally "perfect?"

I realize it may be hair-splitting, but I don't know anyone who never messes up every now and then ;)
MY DEAR BROTHER,

"Messing up" which, as you point out, is one of the things human beings do best. What we are discussing, however, is Holiness, which is defined thusly:

"Holiness is not a series of do's and don'ts, but conformity to the character of God and obedience to the will of God."
-- Jerry Bridges

It is indeed possible--yea, even critically necessary--to achieve holiness, for Scriptures state, "Make every effort . . . to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

ephraim
 
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aiki

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MY DEAR BROTHER,

"Messing up" which, as you point out, is one of the things human beings do best. What we are discussing, however, is Holiness, which is defined thusly:

"Holiness is not a series of do's and don'ts, but conformity to the character of God and obedience to the will of God."
-- Jerry Bridges

It is indeed possible--yea, even critically necessary--to achieve holiness, for Scriptures state, "Make every effort . . . to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
Holiness is an inevitable result of being indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. However, as the verse I quoted before from 1 John indicates, holy perfection is not a real, experiential possibility for anyone living on this side of the grave:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Many of the things the apostle Paul wrote suggest that his understanding was that God was perfecting His saints all through their lives, which is to say, no one actually arrives at holy perfection while they live on this globe.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it (or carry it forward unto completion) until the day of Jesus Christ;

Paul also wrote:

Philippians 3:12-15
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.


Hebrews 10:10-14
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


Paul seems to be contradicting himself in these last two passages. He says in his letter to the Philippians that he has not "attained" or been perfected but states quite flatly in his letter to the Hebrews that Christ has "perfected forever those who are being sanctified (or, the saved) of whom Paul would number himself. So, which is it? Is Paul perfect or not? It seems that he is both. But there is no contradiction, I think. Paul is referring in his Philippian letter to his daily experience, his temporal condition, and in his letter to the Hebrews to his "new creation" state that exists largely independently of his condition, which is his spiritual position. All through Paul's writing, the dichotomy between his daily condition and his spiritual position (in Christ) can be seen. We see it in the quotations above. Paul is perfect, positionally, in Christ (Col. 1:28), but his daily experience, his condition, is constantly being brought more and more into conformity to the truth of his spiritual position as a "joint-heir with Christ."

So, on one hand, the believer can claim holy perfection as an already accomplished spiritual truth that is theirs through the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness to them, but on the other hand cannot claim holy perfection in their daily conduct.

Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Here is a great example of Paul speaking of both his position and his condition. Paul is crucified with Christ (his spiritual position); nevertheless, he lives (his temporal condition).

Selah.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Holiness is an inevitable result of being indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. However, as the verse I quoted before from 1 John indicates, holy perfection is not a real, experiential possibility for anyone living on this side of the grave:
MY DEAR BROTHER,

There are only two things which can keep a person from experiencing complete holiness here and now--running out of the allotted years for his life on this sphere before total holiness has, with the Holy Spirit's Power and guidance, been achieved, or, one the other hand, giving up the struggle against sin as being too arduous.

Notice that the quote you shared from I John is in the past tense. It is indeed true that "All HAVE (past tense) sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," but with our Salvation comes the tools we need to stop sinning in the present and future, otherwise how could St. Paul enjoin us, "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1) Note that following the passages you referenced, St. John states, "I write this to you so that you will not sin." (I John 2:1)

God has given us, in Christ, EVERYTHING we need for personal here-and-now subjective experiential holiness: When our Lord Jesus incarnated in the flesh, He willingly entered satan's world of sin, though He never once sinned Himself after doing so. When He was crucified, He died to this realm of sin (Romans 6:10), and through our God-given union with Jesus, we died to this realm of evil also. We are to count on this Scriptural fact that we are dead with Christ to sin's rule and are thus now enabled to break free of sin's chains and stand up to sin (to which we were formerly enslaved) and say NO! when tempted (where formerly would would have surrendered without even considering a fight.) This new freedom from sin enables us to guard our minds and bodies so that sin no longer reigns in us. As St. Paul puts it, "For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7)

So, in order to lead holy lives after fighting the good fight to do so, we must avail ourselves of the provision for our holiness which Abba has made. Through His Son He has delivered us from sin's reign so that we now can successfully resist sin. But the responsibility for resisting is ours. God does not do that for us. It is our responsibility and calling as Christians to do so for ourselves with the tools God has given us. There are many who have done so, are doing so, and will do so--i intend to be among them should our Lord tarry a bit longer.

:bow:ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim
 
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ephraimanesti

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We often think of holiness in the narrow sense of a disassociation from all sinful thoughts and actions. It is this, of course. But in its broader sense--

Holiness is simply obedience to the will of God in whatever God directs.

Why should this be held to be "impossible" when we have been given God's indwelling Holy Spirit to guide and empower us in the process? We are "dead to sin and alive to God."(Romans 6:11) What more do we need?

Sadly, "Impossible" is often just a euphemism for "I don't want to expend the effort and endure the struggle necessary to accomplish this."

:bow:ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim
 
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MLEN

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We are perfect in God's eyes when 1) We accept Jesus into our lives and then 2) We surrender our lives to him on a daily basis. In doing so we basically say `Not my will Lord, but thine be done'. We aide this second step tremendously by daily spending time with the Lord in prayer and reading his Word (the Holy Bible). It is very hard to want to sin against God when we have planted his laws and desires in our hearts and minds. When his Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, we are guided by him to do his will. This is why prayer and study of his Word is paramount. It sustains us in our Christian walk with the Lord and creates a fortress around us against the wiles of the enemy of our souls.
 
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ephraimanesti

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We are perfect in God's eyes when 1) We accept Jesus into our lives and then 2) We surrender our lives to him on a daily basis. In doing so we basically say `Not my will Lord, but thine be done'. We aide this second step tremendously by daily spending time with the Lord in prayer and reading his Word (the Holy Bible). It is very hard to want to sin against God when we have planted his laws and desires in our hearts and minds. When his Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, we are guided by him to do his will. This is why prayer and study of his Word is paramount. It sustains us in our Christian walk with the Lord and creates a fortress around us against the wiles of the enemy of our souls.

AMEN!​

ephraim
 
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aiki

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There are only two things which can keep a person from experiencing complete holiness here and now--running out of the allotted years for his life on this sphere before total holiness has, with the Holy Spirit's Power and guidance, been achieved, or, one the other hand, giving up the struggle against sin as being too arduous.
A holy thing is simply that which has been "set apart" or consecrated for a specific purpose. Not only human beings, but places, objects, and times can be holy. For instance, Aaron's priestly garments were holy (Ex. 29:29), and the tabernacle was a holy place (Ex. 40:9), and the Sabbath was to be considered holy (Ex. 20:8). Being holy, then, is not a function of behavior; for a garment cannot behave in a holy way, nor can a building, nor a day of the week. A thing is holy by decree of God. Paul wrote,

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


According to this passage, it isn't a believer's good deeds that render him perfect, but the sacrificial atoning work of Christ on the cross, which, when applied to the believer because of his sincere faith in Christ as Saviour, at the moment of his conversion perfects him forever.

Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe...


Romans 5:1
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

When a person accepts Christ as their Saviour his perfect righteousness is imputed to them (what is called "justification"). It is only this which makes any believer acceptable to God. Thus, at the moment of salvation, a new convert is as perfect (positionally) as he will ever be. The perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to every believer cannot be improved or enlarged by whatever good the believer may do.

Notice that the quote you shared from I John is in the past tense.
It doesn't begin in the past tense, though, does it?

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It is indeed true that "All HAVE (past tense) sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," but with our Salvation comes the tools we need to stop sinning in the present and future, otherwise how could St. Paul enjoin us, "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)
I agree with you here. I would point out, though, that the apostle Paul is speaking of holiness, not righteousness. These are two directly related, but still different, things. Being seperated unto God, which is what the Bible means when it speaks of holiness, results in righteousness, but it isn't itself righteousness. I have known Christians who were very seperated from the world and from anything that would provoke them to sin, but who were not righteous people. These folk never went to see movies at the theatre, never set foot in a bar, or gambling establishments, or sporting events; they avoided the beach and the public swimming pool like the plague; they refused to listen to popular secular music, or watch t.v.; they dressed modestly and avoided ostentation in all they possessed. These folk were about as holy (that is, seperated unto God) as you could get (at least externally). Nonetheless, they were sour, and cold, and joyless and resented those who weren't. You see, then, that being seperated unto God, or holy, does not necessarily mean one is actually righteous in one's conduct.

Note that following the passages you referenced, St. John states, "I write this to you so that you will not sin." (I John 2:1)
"So that you will not sin" is not the same as "So that you will never sin," which is what being experientially perfect in righteousness would mean. In fact, John's very next words are:

1 John 2:1b-2
...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...

Clearly, John was not anticipating that those Christians to whom he was writing would be sinlessly perfect.

This new freedom from sin enables us to guard our minds and bodies so that sin no longer reigns in us. As St. Paul puts it, "For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7)
Amen! But none of what you have written here means a child of God can attain sinless perfection in their daily experience. It means we have freedom from Sin's controlling power when once we were in bondage to it but, as Paul explains in chapter 7 of Romans, this doesn't mean the struggle with sin has ended. As Paul indicates:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would.

Although those who have been indwelt by God's Spirit are positionally "dead unto sin but alive unto God," there is still a continuing tension between the carnal inclinations of the flesh and the urgings of the Holy Spirit toward righteousness. This tension results in the Christian sometimes failing to "do the things that he would."

Through His Son He has delivered us from sin's reign so that we now can successfully resist sin.
Right on! We can succeed in resisting sin where once we could only fail. But this no more guarantees sinless perfection than having the wherewithal to successfully climb a mountain guarantees that you will. Even with ropes, pitons, clamps, and a good pair of climbing boots, a mountaineer may still fail to reach the summit.

Selah.
 
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ephraimanesti

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We can succeed in resisting sin where once we could only fail. But this no more guarantees sinless perfection than having the wherewithal to successfully climb a mountain guarantees that you will. Even with ropes, pitons, clamps, and a good pair of climbing boots, a mountaineer may still fail to reach the summit.
MY BROTHER,

Holyness can, as you say, mean "set apart for God's use". However, in the subject at hand it implies a state of sinless perfection, otherwise Peter's injunction, "But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy" (I Peter 1:15-16) wouldn't make much sense.

Hopefully, you are not equating the indwelling Holy Spirit with "ropes, pitons, clamps, and a good pair of climbing boots! (;)) With the Holy Spirit residing in one's Heart and providing the Power and the Guidance to enable one's struggles towards holiness to achieve it goal, THERE IS NO WAY ONE CAN FAIL IN THIS MISSION--unless the goal for some reason no longer seems worth the effort.

i admit that few may reach this goal--most of use will run out of time before completing our quest for holiness. Its a long struggle. But because some will finish their quest for perfection in the Heavenly Kingdom--there having the whole of eternity to finish the race--does not mean we should set our sights lower--1/2 holy, a little bit perfect, king of sinless, what?--or say that the mission is impossible. Many have achieved a sinless perfection, why not us. The only difference between a Saint and a pew warmer is an absolute and total DESIRE to please God. We are told, "Without holiness [hagiasmos=santification=sinless perfection] no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14) Personally, i want to be in that number!

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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