Paul's admonition to Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach?

[lawtonfogle]

Sorry, but this is simply untrue.

Sufficient technology to keep unfermented juice as juice did not exist, would not exist until centuries later.
And no incentive to do so.

Of course some with an agenda have taken some historical texts and distorted them to make it appear that otherwise, but that's not historically sustainable.

Fermentation is far the best and easiest way of preserving grape juice.

Not to mention that back then, beer was insanely helpful, as clean water was rare and had to be prepared (by boiling). Fermented drink, in low concentrations of alcohol, was far safer to carry around as it had little effect on cognitive abilities, but provide a much safer source of hydration than water which had far more bacteria growing in it.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I appreciate yor statement. Would you mind substantiating it? I don't know that I appreciate being told that I am promoting something that is untrue.

Unfermented wine a fact ... - Google Books

Your apology is accepted.

I like how it starts by talking how alcohol is a poison. So is everything else... you can even get water poisoning. But at the same time, in the right quantities, a poison can be helpful, alcohol being one example, especially in the days before clean water. Alcohol was better for trips than boiling water, especially during the middle of the trip.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Any answer? Is the wine Paul recommended for Timothy to drink alcoholic?

Possibly. Alcohol is low quantities helps for killing bacteria, while not killing, or even disadvantaging, us larger beings.

 

[PaladinValer]

Sorry, but this is simply untrue.

Sufficient technology to keep unfermented juice as juice did not exist, would not exist until centuries later.
And no incentive to do so.

Of course some with an agenda have taken some historical texts and distorted them to make it appear that otherwise, but that's not historically sustainable.

Fermentation is far the best and easiest way of preserving grape juice.

Game. Set. Match.

Wine is allowed in Judaism also, so it isn't due to Jewish law.

I found one interesting fact: many Gnostics forbade the use of wine for their celebrations of communion, drinking only water instead. Surely, if they had the ability to simply make unfermented grape juice, they would have done so. The fact that they simply drank water is proof of Ebia's post above.

 

[jarrettcpr]

First off I'll say, I'm not a scientist of any kind.

So, I don't know the whole process of fruit juice turning into alcohol.

I will say that yes there is Scripture that says to not become a drunk...

at the same time there is Scripture that says wine gladdens the hearts of men.

For this particular case when Paul told Timothy to use a little wine, I couldn't tell you how much alcohol the wine had if any, but I'm confident in saying Paul wasn't telling Timothy to get drunk.

I agree with what MrPolo said earlier in this thread.

 

[wlajoie74]

wine without alcohol has no medicinal purposes, so why would paul tell him to take a little wine for his stomach

 

[ebia]

Not to mention that back then, beer was insanely helpful, as clean water was rare and had to be prepared (by boiling). Fermented drink, in low concentrations of alcohol, was far safer to carry around as it had little effect on cognitive abilities, but provide a much safer source of hydration than water which had far more bacteria growing in it.

Absolutely. And unfermented juice (assuming you can even stop grapejuice fermenting) is far worse than water if you don't have access to pasturisation and refridgeration. Grape juice has advantages over other juices, but I've seen orange juice give someone food poisoning after being left unrefridgerated for as little as 24 hours.

 

[wlajoie74]

Paul’s advice was based on the best science available at the time. Today we would be more likely to advise taking Pepto Bismol.

or partaking in a little cannabis which is much more effecient than wine or pepto bismol for curing a stomach ache according to modern sciencethough i think i'll stick with pepto for the runs:o

 

[ebia]

I like how it starts by talking how alcohol is a poison. So is everything else... you can even get water poisoning. But at the same time, in the right quantities, a poison can be helpful, alcohol being one example, especially in the days before clean water. Alcohol was better for trips than boiling water, especially during the middle of the trip.

In the case of wine (not beer) you can add quite a lot of unsafe water to it, give it half an hour or so, and the mix is safe to drink.

 

[lawtonfogle]

In the case of wine (not beer) you can add quite a lot of unsafe water to it, give it half an hour or so, and the mix is safe to drink.

For me, personally, the key here is that when you do this, you are not trying to get drunk. When you drink a glass of wine as a fancy dinner, you are not trying to get drunk, ect. It is when you try to get drunk that problems happen. Of course, I grew up in a church which had an ongoing war if alcohol was allowed or not, but for the most part, both sides just picked on the other in good nature fun. I think that was one disagreement which never got messy.

 

[jarrettcpr]

For me, personally, the key here is that when you do this, you are not trying to get drunk. When you drink a glass of wine as a fancy dinner, you are not trying to get drunk, ect. It is when you try to get drunk that problems happen. Of course, I grew up in a church which had an ongoing war if alcohol was allowed or not, but for the most part, both sides just picked on the other in good nature fun. I think that was one disagreement which never got messy.

Now we have to define what exactly 'drunk' is.

LOL

Not for this thread.

 

[PaladinValer]

IMO, a slight "buzz" is the sign that you've had enough+. Anymore is directly sinful, since your body is telling you to stop at that point.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Now we have to define what exactly 'drunk' is.

LOL

Not for this thread.

Well, we have a legal one... but as for a moral limit, I'm not sure. Probably different per person. I know I could consume more alcohol than the normal person due to my mass, though I would be weaker to it because of lack of experience (never had alcohol outside of standard day to day amounts found naturally).

 

[wlajoie74]

Now we have to define what exactly 'drunk' is.

LOL

Not for this thread.

i think we can just refer to propaganda commercials for this '' Buzzed driving is drunk driving'' seems pretty clear cut to me, lol

 

[jarrettcpr]

IMO, a slight "buzz" is the sign that you've had enough+. Anymore is directly sinful, since your body is telling you to stop at that point.

What exactly is a slight 'buzz'? How does it differ from being 'drunk'? Some will say both are the same.

You say anymore is directly sinful, since your body is telling you to stop at that point. So, when I'm running or working out and my body is hurting b/c it's trying to tell me to stop, but when I keep pushing foward is that a sin?

You see what I'm doing.

It's hard to define drunk. Though my definition of being drunk is the inability to determine right from wrong.

For others being drunk is simply feeling the warmth of the alcohol.

Then for some it is in between of the previous two, though that is VERY hard to define and becomes extremely subjective.

 

[wlajoie74]

i personally think that the bible reference of being drunk refers to a state of mind where you can no longer relate and communicate with God. Other than that there is nothing wrong with ingesting a substance to make you feel good or assists you in a religious/spiritual experience, but of course there will be many who disagree.

 

[jarrettcpr]

i personally think that the bible reference of being drunk refers to a state of mind where you can no longer relate and communicate with God. Other than that there is nothing wrong with ingesting a substance to make you feel good or assist you in a religious/spiritual experience, but of course there will be many who disagree.

I was listening to one preacher and he was saying the word sorcery means one who does drugs. Something like the Greek word for sorcery is pharmecia (sp) (where we get our word pharmacy from) and all sorcerers will be thrown into the lake of fire.

I agree with what you said. Being a drunk (alcoholic) is not a way to live our lives here on Earth. It disconnents us from ourselves, our sorroundings, and most importantly from God.

It's sad and simply takes a lot of you both mentally and physically.

Though time from time I personally get a good 'buzz' and enjoy myself and my friends/family.

 

[eyzonthepriz]

What else can we learn from this?

What we can learn from this is that the gifts (speaking in tongues, healing, etc) did cease as paul said they would. The gifts were given to give creedence to the testimony of ignorant fishermen who were telling the Jewish nation that it was time to forsake their entire heritage and beliefs passed down from the beginning for a new way. As recorded in the gospels, this didnt go very well with the Jews. the Lord Jesus Christ performed many miracles including raising the dead but they killed him anyway. God was showing the world his approval of the new way by continuing the miracles after our Lords death and ressurection for a witness against them. Back to the original question: Encouraging Timothy to drink a little wine simply clarifys that If Paul still had the gift of healing at that time he could have sent Him healing by sending him a handkerchief or apron (see Acts 19:12). Also consider this in light of 2 timothy 4: 20 where Paul left Trophimus sick in Miletum.The gifts passed away then "the end" as recorded in Matthew chapter 24 took place. What "end?" The end of the old testament, the Jewish nation, the temple sacrifice, the need for priests etc..! THIS is the real reformation brothers and sisters. Where was Israel and temple worship to be found after the year 70 A.D.? I know most of you dont know because youv'e never heard it preached. 99 % of the churches are locked on to teaching about the "antichrist" fiction put out by John darby and C.I. Scofeild. I was the same way for many years till the Lord blessed me with the truth that HISTORY backs up and you can research! Examine these things for yourself you will be very surprised with the accuracy of Jesus words. If you are interested heres part 1 of an 8 part sermon series on 70 A.D. entitled "The Witness of 70 A.D."
www.LetGodBeTrue.com - Free Audio Sermons

 

[bliz]

And just how long can grape juice remain unfermented in a warm climate without any refrigeration?

I was once treated to a sermon in which the minister explained that the "wine" at the wedding in Canaan was really a popular unfermented raisin paste. Yeah. That's what he said.

 

[Yarddog]

IMO, a slight "buzz" is the sign that you've had enough+. Anymore is directly sinful, since your body is telling you to stop at that point.

Noah was a righteous man, was he sinful for getting drunk.