The Moral Law

[ralliann]

You're on the wrong side of the Cross...respectfully.

The law is holy just and good. the beautiful worship, in the temple etc, a pattern and picture of the reality in Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The law is holy just and good. the beautiful worship, in the temple etc, a pattern and picture of the reality in Christ.

That’s right, the law leads us to Christ and is silly to think once we are in Christ we can profane his holy and righteous law. Those who are in Christ keep His commandments. Rom 8:4-8 Rev 14:12 which reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

 

[ralliann]

You might consider looking at the index in your bible both Luke and Matthew are “New Testament”

The new covenant was not in effect yet. The fleshy commands were not yet disannulled. Christ was fulfilling the law......

Jesus teaching how not to be least in heaven is “Old Testament” and His teachings should be ignore instead of the example we are told to follow. 1 John 2:6 Jesus tells us to live by His every Word- so I feel bad this is what you believe. Not sure how one can believe in Jesus but not believe or follow His teachings.

Yes, he was fulfilling the law? The carnal elements were yet in place.

Sadly many rely on Pauls scriptures that come with a warning that many people twist to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16 over the plain teachings of Jesus when Paul himself kept every Sabbath decades after the cross and taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 just as Jesus taught. Mat 15:3-14 and lived. John 15:10 2 Peter 2:21-22 Heb 4:15

Paul is New Covenant, the carnal elements were disannulled.

 

[ralliann]

That’s right, the law leads us to Christ and is silly to think once we are in Christ we can profane his holy and righteous law. Those who are in Christ keep His commandments. Rom 8:4-8 Rev 14:12 which reconciles us back to Him Rev 22:14

The carnal fleshy things are disannulled in Christs blood. He fulfilled the law..in the Gospels....

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The new covenant was not in effect yet. The fleshy commands were not yet disannulled. Christ was fulfilling the law......

Yes, he was fulfilling the law? The carnal elements were yet in place.

Paul is New Covenant, the carnal elements were disannulled.

So His blood at the Cross is not what ratified His covenant? Luke 23:56 is after the Cross. Jesus spoke with Mary after He rose and never once corrected her on keeping the Sabbath, nor told anyone not to keep the Sabbath or break any of the commandments of God as one would be least in heaven- its such a sad teaching that we are to disregard the plain teachings of Jesus that He tells us to live by, in lieu of our own will. Jesus came to reconcile us, He showed us the Way and led by example through His life and teachings, and its sad so many people disregard His teachings and think its going to work out for them, when every example in scripture of one doing this it never did.

 

[ralliann]

So His death at the Cross is not what ratified His covenant?

His blood did.

Luke 23:56 is after the Cross. Jesus spoke with Mary and never once corrected her on keeping the Sabbath,

Why should anyone correct Jew's for keeping Sabbath? Or defile the temple etc.

nor told anyone not to keep the Sabbath or break any of the commandments of God as one would be least in heaven- its such a sad teaching that we are to disregard the plain teachings of Jesus that He tells us to live by, in lieu of our own will. We have free will, butJesus came to reconcile us, He showed us the Way and led by example through His life and teachings

The Gentiles were certainly told the needed to keep the law and circumcision (it was not required), that was a no, no. Were Jew's and Gentiles free to defile the Temple? No. Were Jew's told not to circumcise their children? No. That would have sent a false message in the preaching of the Gospel. Jew's and gentile's one in the new covenant. If either quit being Jew's or Gentiles would be false. Especially when Circumcision is a sign and seal of the Covenant made with Abraham.
Jew's that did not believe and were partly blinded were still under the carnal commands of the Sinai covenant.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

His blood did.

Why should anyone correct Jew's for keeping Sabbath? Or defile the temple etc.

They were certainly told the needed to keep the law and circumcision, that was a no, no. Were Jew's and Gentiles free to defile the Temple? No Were Jew's told not to circumcise there children? No. That would have sent a false message in the preaching of the Gospel. Jew's and gentile's one in the new covenant. If either quit being Jew's or Gentiles would be false.

The Sabbath commandment was made for everyone- do you believe Jesus- He said so. Mark 2:27 Isa 56:6

God wants to bless and sanctify everyone and does not want any of His children to sin- which is breaking His law Rom 7:7 and why He taught not to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten as one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30 because breaking one is like breaking them all James 2:10-12.

Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments- which you can find here Exodus 20- God’s law written by the finger of God- His Authority that no man has authority to change one dot or tittle because no one is above God. Paul said circumcision doesn’t matter- but keeping God’s commandments is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19 which is why he and the apostles kept every Sabbath decades after the Cross because they were servants of God and observed what Christ commanded them to. Mat 28:18-20

We have been through this too many times so guess we will have to agree to disagree and everything will get sorted out soon enough.

 

[ralliann]

The Sabbath commandment was made for everyone- do you believe Jesus- He said so. Mark 2:27 Isa 56:6

God wants to bless and sanctify everyone and does not want any of His children to sin- which is breaking His law Rom 7:7 and why He taught not to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten as one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30 because breaking one is like breaking them all James 2:10-12.

We are not Sanctified by the carnal elements in the Sinai covenant

Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments- which you can find here Exodus 20- God’s law written by the finger of God- His Authority that no man has authority to change one dot or tittle because no one is above God. Paul said circumcision doesn’t matter- but keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

As I said it is a sign and a seal of the covenant made before Sinai. Circumcision of the heart is inward. It is important concerning Gentiles being heirs with Jew's with Abraham

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

We have been through this too many times so guess we will have to agree to disagree and everything will get sorted out soon enough.

agreed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We are not Sanctified by the carnal elements in the Sinai covenant

Are you claiming the day God claims as His holy Sabbath day Isa 58:13 that He blessed, sanctified and made holy from Creation before sin Gen 2:1-3 that no man can reverse Num 23:20 is carnal? Where’d you find that scripture. Really such a sad teaching…..
What is carnal is not keeping God’s law- that is the carnal mind and an enmity against God Rom 8:7-8- not doing what is righteous and just meant to bless and sanctify Eze 20:12 Isa 56:1-7 because we can’t sanctify ourselves, but sadly people still try.

I prefer to stick with what Jesus taught. He kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, God kept the Sabbath- there is no thus saith the Lord to not keep the Sabbath- for me I am going to follow who God tells us to follow, instead of following popular traditions of man which Jesus warned us about that lead our hearts far from Him Mat 15:3-14 opposite of the New Covenant- God’s law in our hearts Heb 8:10 kept by God faithful until He returns Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

 

[ralliann]

Are you claiming the day God claims as His holy Sabbath day Isa 58:13 that He blessed, sanctified and made holy from Creation before sin Gen 2:1-3 that no man can reverse Num 23:20 is carnal? Where’d you find that scripture. Really such a sad teaching…..
What is carnal is not keeping God’s law- that is the carnal mind Rom 8:7-8- not doing what is righteous and just meant to bless and sanctify Eze 20:12 Isa 56:1-7 because we can’t sanctify ourselves, but sadly people still try.

I prefer to stick with what Jesus taught. He kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, God kept the Sabbath- there is no thus saith the Lord to not keep the Sabbath- for me I am going to follow who God tells us to follow, instead of following popular traditions of man which Jesus warned us about that lead our hearts far from Him Mat 15:3-14 opposite of the New Covenant- God’s law in our hearts Heb 8:10 kept by God faithful until He returns Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

God finished all his works, the Sabbath is eternal in Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God finished all his works, the Sabbath is eternal in Christ.

God finished all His works at Creation Gen 2:1-3 and yet still gave the commandment for us to keep the Sabbath day holy as we are made in His image to follow Him, God who rested on the seventh day Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 was an example for man- which Jesus said the Sabbath was made for. Mark 2:27 Jesus never turned into the Sabbath, commandment or a day- He is the Creator, not a creation and Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath, not that He is the Sabbath, nor did He give Himself a commandment to follow and for us to profane. Profaning God’s Sabbath didn’t work out so well for the Israelites Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 and we are told not to follow their path of disobedience Heb 4:11 but we have free will to take any path we want and guess hope for a better outcome despite the clear warnings in scripture. All Jesus wants is to spend time with us and bless and sanctify us, not sure what could be more important.

 

[RandyPNW]

The law is holy just and good. the beautiful worship, in the temple etc, a pattern and picture of the reality in Christ.

I would say that the Law of Moses *was* holy, just, and good. But absolutely, the Temple Worship was all designed to "hold the fort" until Christ could come and win for us. We no longer would need a temporary support. The Law has expired.

 

[RandyPNW]

You might consider looking at the index in your bible both Luke and Matthew are “New Testament”

I obviously know what the 39 books of the OT are and what the 27 books of the NT are. But do you know when the NT system began to be implemented?

The vast amount of history recorded in the Gospels took place while the Law was still in effect. So though the Gospels are compiled as part of NT Scriptures they actually record time *before* the NT took effect. I'm surprised you're not aware of this!

 

[ralliann]

I would say that the Law of Moses *was* holy, just, and good. But absolutely, the Temple Worship was all designed to "hold the fort" until Christ could come and win for us. We no longer would need a temporary support. The Law has expired.

For us in Christ this is true. But Jew's still keep the covenant of circumcision, as partly blinded. I think through/or because of partly blinded Israel, God judges the world, for the benefit of all. As long as this world remains, so also will Israel. It seems like when evil men attempt to rule the world and their armies spreads, Israel gets involved. Radical Islam, Hitler etc.
The abrahamic covenant of the earthly Israel seems to be on that path from egypt on

Judgement of EGYPT
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Then 7 nations.....Who's sin had defiled the land.....
De 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;


It is what the law was for
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
It is holy, just and good to being judgement on these...

Dont know when or how, but i do believe all Israel will be saved in Christ when the times of the nations is fulfilled

 

[RandyPNW]

For us in Christ this is true. But Jew's still keep the covenant of circumcision, as partly blinded.

Jews may *think* they are keeping a covenant under the Law, but that is certainly not true. That covenant has expired in favor of Christ's new covenant of eternal salvation. The covenant designed to lead up to Christ would certainly no longer be in effect when its fulfillment had already come!

The small remnant of Jews who have become Christians are not blinded. The rest of the Jewish People remain spiritually blind.

I think through/or because of partly blinded Israel, God judges the world, for the benefit of all. As long as this world remains, so also will Israel. It seems like when evil men attempt to rule the world and their armies spreads, Israel gets involved. Radical Islam, Hitler etc.
The abrahamic covenant of the earthly Israel seems to be on that path from egypt on

I'm not sure that's how God uses Israel. They are under a curse. They are under punishment. How can God use them unless they return to their God?

That being said, we read that God's calling is irrevocable. God is still with the Jewish People, as can be seen by their amazing gifts and ability to survive. And holding to a semblance of their old covenant surely promotes a measure of truth? After all, they continue to present their God and His morality before the world--not all certainly, but some do.

It is what the law was for
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
It is holy, just and good to being judgement on these...

What Paul is saying here is that the Law was OT, and applied to Israel before they were fully redeemed. As such, they were given a Law that gave reprieve to those willing to repent, and brought judgment against those who wouldn't.

This is in contrast to the NT system in which we are already considered righteous, not by our own record but by Christ's record, when we live in him. It is not that Christians are sinless. Rather, Paul is speaking of a system that was designed to deal with all of unredeemed humanity, both saint and sinner.

Christians, consequently, do not require the Law today, because we already have our redemption. It is not as though we don't need to know what is right and wrong. Rather, it is that we don't need a system of redemption any longer, since we already have that in Christ.

The Law is no longer a system bringing judgment on anybody. It is no longer in effect. Christ is the new and final system of redemption, and he will bring judgment upon all who do not turn to him for mercy.

Dont know when or how, but i do believe all Israel will be saved in Christ when the times of the nations is fulfilled

I certainly don't believe every Jewish individual will become a Christian in the future Kingdom. This is talking about the political salvation of Israel, which will take place when the majority of Jews turn to Christ in repentance. Then the whole nation will be delivered from all of the oppression they have been going through over the last 2000 years.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Trying to tie Sabbath Law together with moral commands like "Do not murder" ignores the obvious inclusion of the 10 Commandments in the Temple Law, or the Old Covenant. We may very well continue to obey such prohibitions as to "not murder," but we may not do that under a Temple system that has been abandoned.

The earthy temple is not married to the Sabbath. Can you please point to where God said the Sabbath is not part of the Ten Commandments. There is no such teaching of nine commandments God wrote Ten Commandments Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 with His own finger never telling us we can forget the one commandment God said to Remember, that He made holy and blessed that no man can reverse Num 23:20 because we are not God. Overwriting what God wrote with His own finger and editing or selecting the commandments we feel we should keep makes one their own god and depends on ones own righteousness instead of God’s Psa 119:172 which is everlasting Psa 119:142 Isa 56:1-7 and is not having the mind of Christ Rom 8:7-8 and not how we receive Christ’s righteousness which He imputes if we have not harden our heart and He kept and taught on the commandments of God Mat 15:3-14, Mark 7:7-13, Mat 5:19-30, Mat 19:17-19 and kept as our example. John 15:10 1 John 2:6

The earthy temple was built and destroyed many times, has nothing to do with not being able to keep the Sabbath. The apostles kept the Sabbath when there were no churches built. Acts 16:13 The Sabbath was created and kept in the Garden Exo 20:11 before an earthy temple, before sin entered. Will continue for God’s people. Isa 56:1-7 Isa 66:22-23

We are now God’s temple and His law is written in our hearts Heb 8:10 right where sin begins which is still breaking His Ten Commandments Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 what we will all be judged by. Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 14:6-12. Removing one of God’s commandments is just covering our sins which is a very bad idea Pro 28:13 John 3:18-20 as we are not saved in sin, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21- we need a conversion.

 

[rturner76]

I think that "Moral Law" is what Jesus was talking about. The golden rule, the first 2 commandments being all the law and the prophets

 

[Studyman]

Luke 23.56 is Old Testament. Even if Christians continued to observe the Sabbath, as some of them did, this did not mean it was a NT observance. It was in the NT era, but not according to NT doctrine.

The religious philosophy that the Prophets, Jesus and His Disciples (Christians) observed, what "many" who come in Christ's Name today preach are "worthless Jewish traditions", is a popular religious philosophy promoted by "MANY" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. But the Scriptures simply do not bear this popular teaching out. Surely obedience to God was a universal practice of EVERY example of Faith shown to us by the Inspired Word of God in both the Law and Prophets, and the Testimony of the Christ. While the practice of religious men, "Who profess to know God", of rejecting His Judgments, Statutes and Commandments in favor of their own religious imagination and tradition has been going on, and is warned against over and over and over in the Written Scriptures, from the story of Eve to Revelation.

Matt 5.19-30 is also Old Testament. Why are you using OT verses in an attempt to prove Sabbath Law in the NT era?

According to Paul, the "OT" was written specifically for men who lived after the OT was written. It was actually written, according to Paul, as an example to men who be born after it is written, "For our sakes no doubt", "for our admonition", "as examples for us not to lust after disobedience as they also lusted".

1 Peter 1: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, "but unto us" they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore (Because of this undeniable truth) gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And there can be no question that God Deems His Sabbath Day Holy. And so did His Son, and the Disciples His Father gave to Him. Perhaps you might consider God's Truth regarding these things, and not this world's "many" who "transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

Paul arguing on the Sabbath with the Jews who were under the Law is not indicative of Paul's effort to comply with Sabbath Law for himself. Rather, it was an outreach to those who were still under the culture of Sabbath practice. Paul was following Jewish tradition, as opposed to Jewish Law that he deemed applicable to himself.

Again, it is simply a deception to preach to others that God's Law is "Jewish Tradition". "Many" people who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have surely been deceived into believing this falsehood. Paul warns the Body of Christ about this very thing.

2 Thes. 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

On the contrary, Paul claimed he was in no way obliged to keep "days" as prescribed by the Law of Moses.

Gal 4.10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

Gal. 4: 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I have heard of this philosophy you are promoting. But it doesn't make sense according to the very Scripture you use to promote it. When these men "DIDN'T KNOW GOD" they observed special days, months, seasons and years in service to them who "Are No gods".

Therefore, these men were in bondage to their own high days, their own judgments, their own statutes in service to them who were "not gods".

But after that these men found God, and were known of the God of Abraham, and the Lord of God's Sabbaths that were "made for them", why are they turning again to the beggarly Elements of this world and the traditions of men, and not God.

To believe the religion you are promoting, I would have to believe that these men were honoring God in HIS Sabbath, and the Feasts of the Lord, "When they didn't know God, or were known of Him". And then, after they know God or are known of Him, they rejected HIS Judgments and Statutes in favor of manmade religious high days and Judgments that "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord are promoting now. But were turning again to obedience to God and the Feasts of the Lord, and His Sabbath that HE made for man. The popular religious doctrine regarding this scripture that you have adopted, doesn't make any sense.

This is a perfect example of the "Strong Delusion" Paul speak to. And the way "many", who come in Christ's Name, deceive many twisting the Scriptures. Step back and actually read the Scriptures. You have been misled.

I advocate for believing the Jesus "of the Bible" and His Warnings about those "many" who call Him Lord, and for us to study for ourselves, the Inspired Word of God, AKA "The Sword of the Lord".

 

[timothyu]

Has anyone noticed how the whole concept of the Hebrew/Christian religions has become a matter of evolution as it continually changes and grows to suit itself. A beta concept in progress. A living entity unto itself that man occasionally feeds and helps grow and mutate.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Has anyone noticed how the whole concept of the Hebrew/Christian religions has become a matter of evolution as it continually changes and grows to suit itself. A beta concept in progress. A living entity unto itself that man occasionally feeds and helps grow and mutate.

And yet God changes not. Malachi 3:6