Overcoming Fear of Hell

[HopefulDays]

Hi, everyone,

As most of you know, I am a Catholic researching the Orthodox faith. My mother is an evangelical Protestant, and I am very familiar with doctrine about both Catholicism and Protestantism. (That being said, I've been scared out of my wits in the past by thoughts of mortal sin, predestination, losing salvation, realizing I was never saved in the first place--all the scary parts of Catholicism and Protestantism thrown upon one very confused child, as I was twelve at the time when I started researching everything.)

When frightens me most, from the earliest days of my childhood until now (I am nineteen), is the thought of eternal punishment from God in hellfire. I was greatly relieved to read that Orthodox Christians don't seem to believe in this place of literal torment and eternal, fiery punishment.

I'd greatly appreciate if someone could elaborate on the Orthodox view of hell, especially these points:

1.) Do Orthodox Christians reject the "mainstream" doctrine of hell based off of early Church teaching?

2.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that the works of those who die believing in Christ must be "measured" (i.e. more good works than bad works) to get into Heaven?

3.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that salvation is possible for those who have not heard the gospel? What about those who seemingly-rejected Christ here on Earth? Is it possible they could still accept God's love upon experiencing it in Heaven?

4.) If I follow Jesus as Lord, can I be certain of my salvation and not fear death or hell?

I apologize for the many questions. I have OCD, which manifests itself in intense fears of hellfire and judgement. I am hoping to find a religious community that does not instill such panic in me. (Catholicism and Protestantism both seem to present God in a way incongruous with the all-loving Lord I know exists.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

1.) Do Orthodox Christians reject the "mainstream" doctrine of hell based off of early Church teaching?

we reject the lava fire pit belief where it is eternity of getting stabbed by demons with pitchforks while Satan laughs on a big stone throne. fire in Scripture has always been shown as God's Presence (Burning Bush, Pillar of fire, tongues of fire, eyes aflame, etc), so the Lake of Fire is the same, it is the presence of God in the face of someone who does not want it. and that desire for sin, which the Scripture says get burned up, in the face of such love and holiness is what causes the eternal torment.

2.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that the works of those who die believing in Christ must be "measured" (i.e. more good works than bad works) to get into Heaven?

no, because if that were true, Christ would not have told the wise thief that he would be with Him in Paradise.

3.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that salvation is possible for those who have not heard the gospel? What about those who seemingly-rejected Christ here on Earth? Is it possible they could still accept God's love upon experiencing it in Heaven?

yes. God wills the salvation of everyone, so He will never cut anyone off. those who are in hell after the Final Judgment, are the ones who eternally choose to stay there. so yes, since man never loses free will, it is possible for anyone to repent and be saved. the question is not if they can, the question if they want to.

4.) If I follow Jesus as Lord, can I be certain of my salvation and not fear death or hell?

well, yes and no. maybe in this moment you can be certain, but none of us know where we will be next week, next year, or whenever. so we must be eternally vigiliant to watch for our Bridegroom, so that when we meet Him we are ready.

and don't worry, you ask great questions! keep them coming!

 

[truthseeker32]

Are the Catholic and Orthodox views of Heaven and Hell not compatible?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are the Catholic and Orthodox views of Heaven and Hell not compatible?

depends, cause I am not sure, but if Rome believes in a literal fire pit or something like Dante's symbolic retribution, then I would say no, and we believe in no Purgatory for the saved who still have some stuff to work off

 

[HopefulDays]

Thanks, Matt, for your thoughtful response! I'm enjoying new ways to look at things. Macarius did a great job in clearing up some issues for me over private messaging, but I am enjoying hearing everyone's insight.

And, truthseeker, from my experience, no they are not. Catholicism seems to teach a literal eternal punishment for those who die in a state of mortal sin, even if it be as simple as missing Mass because you wanted to sleep in. Now, most Catholic priests don't really believe this, (I've only met one!) but it seems to be in their "official" teachings and that bothers me. I like how Orthodoxy teaches that "hell" is simply God's love interpreted by those stubbornly refusing to accept it. It is not a place of wrathful punishment.

 

[Gnarwhal]

yes. God wills the salvation of everyone, so He will never cut anyone off. those who are in hell after the Final Judgment, are the ones who eternally choose to stay there. so yes, since man never loses free will, it is possible for anyone to repent and be saved. the question is not if they can, the question if they want to.

Can you perhaps name some church fathers that taught this? Not that I believe you're wrong, quite the contrary, I just want to get more familiar with the Patristic teachings that go along these lines.

Thanks bro.

 

[truthseeker32]

And, truthseeker, from my experience, no they are not. Catholicism seems to teach a literal eternal punishment for those who die in a state of mortal sin, even if it be as simple as missing Mass because you wanted to sleep in. Now, most Catholic priests don't really believe this, (I've only met one!) but it seems to be in their "official" teachings and that bothers me. I like how Orthodoxy teaches that "hell" is simply God's love interpreted by those stubbornly refusing to accept it. It is not a place of wrathful punishment.

Because I am a guest here, I will only briefly state that this is innaccurate. Orthodox Christians too teach a literal punishment/ suffering that results from rejecting God. That is what mortal sin is- knowingly doing something you know is grave. The Catholic Church does not claim every instance of a Catholic missing Mass is a mortal sin. In order for missing Mass to be a mortal sin the Catholic must be aware that it is very important to attend Mass and still choose not to attend. It may be the case that nobody has ever missed Mass with a full knowledge of how grievous their action is and thus it would not be mortal sin. As I previously stated, all mortal sin is is knowing some act is very very wrong and doing it anyways, basically spitting in the face of God. If someone isn't sure if missing Mass is gravely wrong, or doesn't think missing mass is wrong, then they are not committing a mortal sin.

"I like how Orthodoxy teaches that "hell" is simply God's love interpreted by those stubbornly refusing to accept it. It is not a place of wrathful punishment."

This is absolutely not in conflict with Catholic teaching. God in the Catholic view is not a bully who actively inflicts pain on those who disobey his will. The torment of Hell is the necessary cause and effect result of resisting God's love. It is important to interpret "wrath" the right way.

 

[Yoder777]

Why fear hell? Eastern Christianity rejects the Western understanding of hell, instead teaching that that both the elect and the lost enter the presence of God after death, that the elect experience this presence as light and rest, while the lost experience it as darkness and torment. Some church fathers even taught that, at the end of all things, all souls will be reconciled to God, provided that they will have the free will to choose.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you perhaps name some church fathers that taught this? Not that I believe you're wrong, quite the contrary, I just want to get more familiar with the Patristic teachings that go along these lines.

Thanks bro.

St Maximos the Confessor gets into this. he points out that the same sun will both harden bricks and melt wax. it is the nature of what is in the presence of the sun that determines what happens

 

[Nephi]

Orthodox Christians too teach a literal punishment/ suffering that results from rejecting God.

Regarding this point, I must say that there seem to be two views in Orthodoxy. Those that reject punishment (but not suffering) and those that accept punishment and suffering. It's an important distinction I think needs pointed out.

The former believe that suffering is solely the result of cause-effect, but is not incurred upon them by God (e.g. not an outpouring of wrath, a fulfillment of justice, etc.). Rather suffering tends to be self-invoked in a sense by the individual rejecting God and not embracing his love, presence, etc.

The latter accept that God punishes the unrepentant (as a form of wrath I believe, but not out of a necessity to fulfill justice and punish sin) which results in suffering.

I suppose the latter (God's punishment) and the former (rejection leading to suffering) could be combined. So maybe there are more possible views than just two.

That said, I do agree that Catholic and Orthodox views of the afterlife are much closer than most would admit.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think it's important to point out to the OP that there is no "official" version of hell in Orthodox teaching. The vision Matt points out tends to be the predominant one, but a literal fiery place of punishment is not officially scoffed-off as folly either. The bottom line is that hell is awful. In Scripture, Gehenna is portrayed as a gnashing of teeth, etc. Gehenna harkens to the Valley of Hinnom in the OT where children were sacrificed to Moloch, and in Scripture Gehenna is where the worm does not die. It's an awful torment. We also see the Greek work tartarus, an underground evil lair lower than Hades, used to describe hell in Scripture. St. Gregory the Dialogist said that Hell was underneath the Earth...St. Augustine said the same thing. tormented day and night for ever and ever is how Revelation describes it.

For me, I think we need to remember that we will be judged. The "we make our own bed and lie in it" can start to sound like Karma to me sometimes, and I hear that a lot in Orthodox circles....the language almost makes it sound like God won't judge us, but rather our bad karma kicks us into a selfish state of self-imposed separation from God. The reality is that we will be judged by God. We hear about needing a good defense before the "dread judgment seat" of God during the liturgy. The judgment is very real.

And I think there is room to speculate that hell is indeed separation from God: “I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness,”? (Matt. 7:21-23). Kings 17:18-23 mentions removed them from his presence...he afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he thrust them from his presence. Cain is also driven away from God's presence, we are told.

Jer. 23:23-24 and Psalm 139:7-10 both mention, however, the fact that GOD IS EVERYWHERE and omnipresent. God is boundless, cannot be contained....

However, God can do anything.

I think we risk entering into a type of Calvinist "systematic" thinking when we rationalize that God is everywhere so therefore there cannot be a place or state in which God keeps His divine grace and love from someone. After all, Calvinists claim that God cannot allow free will because He is omnipresent and all-powerful and totally omniscent/ prescient. Orthodox Christians argue that God can indeed empty himself and allow humanity to have free will....that is the glorious nature of God, to do what we humans consider impossible for a deity. If God can empty himself of predestinatory puppetry, He can empty Himself of touching us all in every state in every place. God is never limited by humanity's perceptions. If God wished to make a place where we are to be cast apart----HE WILL. Otherwise, imho, to say He couldn't do such a thing would imply a Calvinist mindset wherein God is contained by some universal laws or metaphysical boundaries....

I find the "we're all standing side by side in God's presence just with a different experience, burning or warmed in love" to be a touch Karmaic. My jury is still out on this.

Nevertheless, I think a heavy disclaimer be given our good OP: Orthodoxy has no official view of hell, just speculation by the Fathers, saints, theologians, and holy men of 2,000 plus years of the faith.

We cannot downplay hell or the judgment. Orthodoxy is a church that has paintings depicting demons plucking the Christians ascending up the latter of divine ascent, falling into the abyss. Where I come from, that can't be a good thing!

 

[truthseeker32]

This thread raises an interesting question: Once one has died and is in the presence of God, can they really choose God? It almost seems that given the torment of resisting God's love an individual would have no choice to accept God's love in order to end such suffering. Who would freely choose eternal torment if they knew the alternative was an option?

 

[Gnarwhal]

St Maximos the Confessor gets into this. he points out that the same sun will both harden bricks and melt wax. it is the nature of what is in the presence of the sun that determines what happens

Thanks bro, I appreciate that!

 

[Nephi]

Hi, everyone,
When frightens me most, from the earliest days of my childhood until now (I am nineteen), is the thought of eternal punishment from God in hellfire. I was greatly relieved to read that Orthodox Christians don't seem to believe in this place of literal torment and eternal, fiery punishment.

I think it's important to note that most educated Orthodox, as far as I'm aware, don't believe hell is a "literal place," but rather a state. Remember - God is everywhere and fills all things, so there is nowhere that God is not. So it doesn't make sense for God to create a place where he can throw sinners to punishment where he doesn't have to see their sin - it's not possible, as anything that exists only does so through God's grace and energies. So rather they are in the presence of God and it is a state of being.

That said, I'm sure some Orthodox do believe it to be a literal place - or use the imagery of Hell as a place.

1.) Do Orthodox Christians reject the "mainstream" doctrine of hell based off of early Church teaching?

I'm not sure what you mean by "mainstream." Frankly the view in Orthodoxy varies, as I mentioned in my reply to truthseeker32.

2.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that the works of those who die believing in Christ must be "measured" (i.e. more good works than bad works) to get into Heaven?

No. I don't know of any Christians that believe in this.

3.) Do Orthodox Christians believe that salvation is possible for those who have not heard the gospel? What about those who seemingly-rejected Christ here on Earth? Is it possible they could still accept God's love upon experiencing it in Heaven?

Yes, and yes. It's important to note that upon one's death they go through a "particular judgment," in which they are immediately judged based on their current standing. This is not set in stone - if it were, we wouldn't pray for the dead - and their standing can change by the time of the resurrection and the Last Judgment.

4.) If I follow Jesus as Lord, can I be certain of my salvation and not fear death or hell?

I'm afraid we don't believe in "once saved always saved," so there's always the real possibility that we could some day reject God. Does that mean we have to constantly be in a state of holiness lest we be condemned if death catches us unaware? Absolutely not. As I've heard it before, "If Christ were to return and you've fallen, would he find you struggling to get back up or lying dead in sin?"

I apologize for the many questions. I have OCD, which manifests itself in intense fears of hellfire and judgement. I am hoping to find a religious community that does not instill such panic in me. (Catholicism and Protestantism both seem to present God in a way incongruous with the all-loving Lord I know exists.)

I think that you need to find a caring priest (Catholic or otherwise) to talk to about this overall subject. That may be the better solution in the long run over attemping to possibly switch churches for this reason alone (so I assume).

Anyway, God bless you and your journey!

 

[Nephi]

This thread raises an interesting question: Once one has died and is in the presence of God, can they really choose God? It almost seems that given the torment of resisting God's love an individual would have no choice to accept God's love in order to end such suffering. Who would freely choose eternal torment if they knew the alternative was an option?

Which is why some hope in the near-universal (voluntary!) reconciliation of the damned before the last judgment.

That said, it's hard to say. Satan was in the direct presence of God but rejected him, and Adam and Eve also. So it's not too much of a stretch to think of other humans doing it whether they are suffering or not.

 

[choirfiend]

ding ding ding, Nephi for the prize! If Adam and Eve can reject God, anyone can.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But did Adam and Eve "reject" God or did they disobey him wishing to be like Him far before their time? It's like steroids. They didn't want to do the hard work of lifting weights for years to build muscles, so they took the quick needle. They didn't want to wait for theosis, they wanted a magic potion of theosis in a bottle--the fruit offered by Satan. I always thought the Fathers emphasized the immaturity and sin of desire to grow beyond present means rather than a rejection?

ding ding ding, Nephi for the prize! If Adam and Eve can reject God, anyone can.

 

[gracefullamb]

.

 

[truthseeker32]

I think Lucifer is the big mystery. How can an angel of God rebel against God? It seems like there has to have been some sort of ignorance regarding what he was getting himself into on his part. I think Gurney is onto something with Adam and Eve. They probably didn't understand the full scope of their decisions, but that is coming from a Catholic who distinguishes between mortal and venial sin

 

[Yoder777]

I would like to say that fear of eternal damnation is not the best incentive for living a spiritual life in the present moment, and using scare tactics against the non-converted doesn't work either.