Overcoming Fear of Hell

[ArmyMatt]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

That's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on hell. Clearly this is problematic from an Eastern View because it is the presence of God, not His absence, that causes the pain of Hell. God is everywhere. You cannot escape Him.

A big part of this difference is a mistranslation of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in most Western Translations, it is something like:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


A better translation is:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, FROM the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


The punishment is FROM God's presence, not AWAY FROM. The KJV gets it right:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

yep, there cannot be a spatial separation from God, since He has no boundaries and is everywhere present, and fills all things which would include hell. Fr Hopko points out that what makes will make hell, hell, will be that the risen Christ will be there alive, in the presence of people who desire death. and they cannot escape that confrontation.

 

[Dorothea]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

That's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on hell. Clearly this is problematic from an Eastern View because it is the presence of God, not His absence, that causes the pain of Hell. God is everywhere. You cannot escape Him.

A big part of this difference is a mistranslation of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in most Western Translations, it is something like:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


A better translation is:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, FROM the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


The punishment is FROM God's presence, not AWAY FROM. The KJV gets it right:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

True. God is ALL and IN ALL.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

As I'm at the Divine Liturgy, with everyone else I pray the prayer For a Christian end to our lives, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ, let us ask the Lord. But with this "we isolate ourselves from God's love" angle, everything is voluntary. We walk into a prison locked from the inside, to employ some Lewis analogy. We choose to look at Perfection, Beauty, Truth, Glory, and Awesome Love, and actively reject it and opt to be put in prison. It just sounds more like karma to me than judgment. It seems to me that offending God plays into the equation of sin, not just missing the mark and skewing ourselves from theosis.

 

[truefiction1]

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

As I'm at the Divine Liturgy, with everyone else I pray the prayer For a Christian end to our lives, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ, let us ask the Lord. But with this "we isolate ourselves from God's love" angle, everything is voluntary. We walk into a prison locked from the inside, to employ some Lewis analogy. We choose to look at Perfection, Beauty, Truth, Glory, and Awesome Love, and actively reject it and opt to be put in prison. It just sounds more like karma to me than judgment. It seems to me that offending God plays into the equation of sin, not just missing the mark and skewing ourselves from theosis.

There are many paradoxes in Christian Orthodoxy; things which seem contradictory but aren't. In God, Divine Love and Divine Justice are one and the same: God is Just because God is Love. Love becomes the ultimate torment/judgment for those souls in whom it is completely absent (which is the majority of us).

As we progress away from our inward sinfulness through continued repentance we'll discover that our minds, freed from the corruption of passion by the all-merciful Holy Spirit, will come to more easily support such seemingly contradictory things by a unifying Truth.

 

[Yoder777]

Speaking of the fear of hell, there are some interesting books to recommend about near death experiences of hell.

My Descent Into Death: A Second Chance at Life: Howard Storm: 9780385513760: Amazon.com: Books

Beyond the Darkness: Angie Fenimore: 9780553099669: Amazon.com: Books

The first book was written by an atheist college professor who became a Christian minister after having a near death experience in hell. The experience both books describe is not a literal lake of fire but a place of darkness filled with lost souls where the presence of God is never too far away for those willing to call for it. However, the people described in hell are so self-centered and resentful toward others for their own wrongs that they never ask for God's help.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

As I'm at the Divine Liturgy, with everyone else I pray the prayer For a Christian end to our lives, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ, let us ask the Lord. But with this "we isolate ourselves from God's love" angle, everything is voluntary. We walk into a prison locked from the inside, to employ some Lewis analogy. We choose to look at Perfection, Beauty, Truth, Glory, and Awesome Love, and actively reject it and opt to be put in prison. It just sounds more like karma to me than judgment. It seems to me that offending God plays into the equation of sin, not just missing the mark and skewing ourselves from theosis.

but what does the Bible say the judgment is? that Light has come into the world, and the world prefers darkness to the Light. Christ is the Supreme Judge who judges by not judging, and that is the judgment. think of after Judas' betrayal. think of him looking into those eyes that did nothing but love him after the kiss. imagine what Christ's question would have sounded like in his ears. I mean really, can you think of a worse judgment than that?

 

[InnerPhyre]

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

As I'm at the Divine Liturgy, with everyone else I pray the prayer For a Christian end to our lives, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ, let us ask the Lord. But with this "we isolate ourselves from God's love" angle, everything is voluntary. We walk into a prison locked from the inside, to employ some Lewis analogy. We choose to look at Perfection, Beauty, Truth, Glory, and Awesome Love, and actively reject it and opt to be put in prison. It just sounds more like karma to me than judgment. It seems to me that offending God plays into the equation of sin, not just missing the mark and skewing ourselves from theosis.

The judgement is very real, but it is not a literal judge sitting on a literal seat and declaring us guilty or pardoned. The presence of God Himself is the judgement. It's not a matter of karma. As the prophet Malachi said:

"But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire"

The refiner's fire strengthens that which is pure and burns away that which is not.

 

[HopefulDays]

The refiner's fire strengthens that which is pure and burns away that which is not.

So when those who lived clinging to Christ stand before God in judgement the process is much like that mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3?

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

That is, God's loving presence will burn up all the undesirable parts of our being, leaving only the good and the solid foundation which is Christ?

 

[jckstraw72]

this is a debated issue in Orthodoxy today. There is Kalomiros' River of Fire, which most people here seem to be following, but there is also Moss' River of Fire Revisited which sees more of actual judgment and punishment in the Tradition. I think a good balance is needed between the two.

 

[truefiction1]

So when those who lived clinging to Christ stand before God in judgement the process is much like that mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3?

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

That is, God's loving presence will burn up all the undesirable parts of our being, leaving only the good and the solid foundation which is Christ?

The writer of this epistle was referring specifically to works that Christians do with regard to building up the Church. But the general idea is that even if one is not entirely perfect in virtue they will still be saved, but not in the ideal way of those who received a more perfect sanctification of themselves (through true repentance) prior to the Day of Judgment.

 

[truefiction1]

So when those who lived clinging to Christ stand before God in judgement the process is much like that mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3?

That is, God's loving presence will burn up all the undesirable parts of our being, leaving only the good and the solid foundation which is Christ?

HopefulDays, this loving presence in fact burns up the undesirable parts of our being even now, in so much as we try to bear the fruits of true repentance, and insofar as we can bear it -- the Holy Spirit knows how much Truth we can bear about ourselves at any given time. If the whole Truth (God) were to be shown us all at once, rather than in a more comfortably metered way, we would simply fall into a horrid state of mindless despair over the horror of our own evil in comparison to God's goodness. We are much more depraved than we understand, because our pride blinds us to our true selves.

You'll discover this for yourself after you embark on true repentance, so long as you continue on this path and don't turn aside or back.

 

[HopefulDays]

this is a debated issue in Orthodoxy today. There is Kalomiros' River of Fire, which most people here seem to be following, but there is also Moss' River of Fire Revisited which sees more of actual judgment and punishment in the Tradition. I think a good balance is needed between the two.

I was sent an interesting article about the River of Fire, but considering Orthodoxy often employs a different mindset than Catholics and Protestants, as well as uses vocabulary foreign to my religious upbringing, I find the concepts quite confusing.

In short, Jckstraw72, could you possibly explain these to me in a nutshell?

 

[jckstraw72]

i would probably actually need to re-read them myself before being able to accurately nutshell them.

 

[truthseeker32]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

If a man is resisting God's love, he is not unified with God, and is therefore separated from God. This doesn't necessarily mean that God is spatially separated from us, but rather we divide ourselves from God, even though, in a sense, we are never fully absent from his presence.

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

It warms my heart to know that Orthodoxy has brought you closer to Christ, my brother; however, I would like to note that your new perspective on Hell as a cause and effect consequence fits perfectly with what I stated earlier, and fits Roman Catholic theology. God's judgement is the eternal moral laws of cause and effect.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So when those who lived clinging to Christ stand before God in judgement the process is much like that mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3?

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

That is, God's loving presence will burn up all the undesirable parts of our being, leaving only the good and the solid foundation which is Christ?

I would say yep, that which is not Godly get's burned away. so for those who desire to let go of whatever evil is still in them, that act of burning away the bad (which is the judgment) is welcomed. for those who desire the evil that get's burned away, that causes the condemnation and torment.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I think since my conversion to Orthodoxy, the judgment aspect of Christ is much muddier and more of a grey area for me. As a Catholic I always saw hell and judgment together and it made a great deal of sense. But this "we send ourselves to hell" approach to things, it sounds almost like karma...cause and effect, and no real need for God's judgment?

As I'm at the Divine Liturgy, with everyone else I pray the prayer For a Christian end to our lives, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ, let us ask the Lord. But with this "we isolate ourselves from God's love" angle, everything is voluntary. We walk into a prison locked from the inside, to employ some Lewis analogy. We choose to look at Perfection, Beauty, Truth, Glory, and Awesome Love, and actively reject it and opt to be put in prison. It just sounds more like karma to me than judgment. It seems to me that offending God plays into the equation of sin, not just missing the mark and skewing ourselves from theosis.

I don't get "karma" out of it at all. As with most everything in Orthodoxy - it isn't an either/or situation. The judgement of Christ for each one of us is real, and we face it alone; but our life-long choices, made of our free will have brought us either to Christ or to Self.

Have you read Lewis' "The Great Divorce"? I find that so helpful.

Mary

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Seeker,

When I speak of cause and effect, my context is not saying that we don't deserve what we get from our own actions. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that I don't think we have this much CONTROL over our final destiny. Our works DO matter. I'm not a Protestant with sola fide, sola gracia, etc. Our works matter. But ultimately it's GOD'S decision where we end up, not solely our own. We are at His mercy. And I have concerns with the idea that we just voluntarily walk into a prison of our own design and could, if we wished, walk out at any moment. The idea that we choose to stay lost, lonely, in pain, suffering, hateful, vengeful, and spiteful toward God is taking our freedom too far to me. I'm not claiming to be an expert on this nor a theologian, but still seeking (like your moniker) to know the Orthodox way. God is Our Savior and Judge. We are at the mercy of the King. Our actions play a huge role, but the final decision is God's, not ours. It smells of karma to me, with God not playing enough of the role He deserves. So those are my concerns. I never thought our actions are meaningless or not in the equation.

however, I would like to note that your new perspective on Hell as a cause and effect consequence fits perfectly with what I stated earlier, and fits Roman Catholic theology. God's judgement is the eternal moral laws of cause and effect.

 

[ArmyMatt]

but remember what Christ said the judgment is, that Light has come into the world and the world preferred the darkness to the Light. that act is on man's side of things, and that act puts us under God's wrath (which is an aspect of love) and judgment. so the more and more God calls out to the lost, the more they are tormented, in the same way that it is a blessing to the saved. so in that sense, it is God who does it. and the works are a part of the judgment.

I think you should check out Fr Hopko's The Death of Christ and our Death in Him. he does a pretty good job explaining this kinda stuff. and he always points out that with this, it's okay to have questions.

 

[Fotina]

Hi Hopeful,

Saint Silouan the Athonite is famous for the saying: "Keep your mind in hell, but despair not." Basically, that condemnation to hell is what he deserved. But in acceptance of his just condemnation, it somehow freed him from the demons that were constantly tormenting him. He came to this understanding after 15 long years of ascetic struggle, then spent another 15 years growing in that knowledge. Our struggle is life-long. Read here: Archimandrite Zacharias Zakharou. Keep Thy Mind in Hell and Despair Not.

Also, with Great Lent and Pascha approaching, we are reminded that Christ descended into hell, defeated death, and rose again victorious. We follow our master into death, that we too may rise again in new life in Christ. During the Paschal season, Orthodox sing again and again:"Christ is Risen from the dead, Trampling down death by death, And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.'

See also: Icon of Christ’s Descent into Hades

Located in the Church of the Holy Savior in Chora, Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey) this fresco bears the title Η ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣΗΣ, The Resurrection.

At the center, the living Christ, resplendent in light, has descended into hades, the abode of the dead, where He raises Adam and Eve from captivity. To either side stand righteous kings, prophets and saints from the Old Testament, and apostles and saints from the New Testament. Under His feet are the gates of hades, which He has broken open from within; scattered are all the shattered locks and chains of death, and a bound figure personifying hades, now rendered powerless.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yes, I have read the Great Divorce. That's why I referenced Lewis earlier.

I don't get "karma" out of it at all. As with most everything in Orthodoxy - it isn't an either/or situation. The judgement of Christ for each one of us is real, and we face it alone; but our life-long choices, made of our free will have brought us either to Christ or to Self.

Have you read Lewis' "The Great Divorce"? I find that so helpful.

Mary