Overcoming Fear of Hell

[truefiction1]

This thread raises an interesting question: Once one has died and is in the presence of God, can they really choose God? It almost seems that given the torment of resisting God's love an individual would have no choice to accept God's love in order to end such suffering. Who would freely choose eternal torment if they knew the alternative was an option?

At some point, our Love of God becomes a self-less act (that is, without any selfish motivation) not a self-defense maneuver. If it is merely a self-defense maneuver it is not LOVE. This is why we must not wait to repent until it is too late -- lest we shut ourselves out of the Kingdom forever. The reigning law in the God's Kingdom is Love. If this law isn't personally established in us at some point, we cannot live there.

 

[jckstraw72]

there are 3 valid motivations for the spiritual life:

1. fear of hell
2. desire for heaven
3. love of God

#3 is the most perfect motivation, but the other 2 are valid, and frankly, most of us are probably in #1, maybe #2, if we're honest with ourselves. St. John teaches us that it is perfect love that casts out fear. i know im certainly miles away from perfect love, but if you don't want fear, then get crackin' on perfecting your love!

 

[Yoder777]

there are 3 valid motivations for the spiritual life:

1. fear of hell
2. desire for heaven
3. love of God

#3 is the most perfect motivation, but the other 2 are valid, and frankly, most of us are probably in #1, maybe #2, if we're honest with ourselves. St. John teaches us that it is perfect love that casts out fear. i know im certainly miles away from perfect love, but if you don't want fear, then get crackin' on perfecting your love!

Fear as a motivation for religious living can be psychologically damaging.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I tend to concur with Truthseeker. I don't think Adam and Eve, especially Adam, actively sought to reject God. Eve believed a lie, the lie that we can grow beyond our means before our time. Theosis in a bite of a piece of fruit. They were spiritually children, not ready for the heavy ramifications of what theosis entails and the journey toward it. Adam and Eve's sin was not trusting God and listening to a diabolical influence. I think they didn't reject the life that God offers. Their sin, from my reading of the Fathers, was that they wanted that life NOW! And isn't that usually the nature of sin? the seduction? we want pleasure and peace and joy NOW. We run to all sorts of numbing agents---booze, drugs, cigarettes, inappropriate content, extramarital affairs, medications, you name it.

You are not slow at all btw.

Perhaps I am being very slow here or just really dense, but when one disobeys God are they not in fact rejecting him and the life he offers? Isn't that actually what we are doing when we sin, we are rejecting the life God offers us or am I overthinking this here.

 

[jckstraw72]

Fear as a motivation for religious living can be psychologically damaging.

sure, anything improperly understood and enacted can be psychologically damaging. guilt can weigh us down or motivate us to repent - same w/ fear. Christ Himself spoke often of hell and how much its gonna suck.

 

[ArmyMatt]

plus the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. there are many kinds of fear, just like how both Peter and Judas wept for their sins, but one repented and one dispaired...but both wept and were remorseful.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This thread raises an interesting question: Once one has died and is in the presence of God, can they really choose God? It almost seems that given the torment of resisting God's love an individual would have no choice to accept God's love in order to end such suffering. Who would freely choose eternal torment if they knew the alternative was an option?

oh we see this all the time. how often do people do things like drugs, alcohol, or sex, and they know that there are dangers or know that the outcome will be bad, and yet chose to go the wrong road.

Israel saw God's glory on the mountain, a mountain made so holy that if they touched it they would die, after having been led through the Red Sea with all of those miracles.....and yet they still made the Golden Calf. Judas was granted everything, including the miracle working, of the Apostles, and yet he betrayed. Peter the same and yet he denied. all the other apostles and yet they ran.

I think this is the human experience in a nutshell.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

In addition about fear's from thread "fear of God" http://www.christianforums.com/t7703060/ :

Dorotheous of Gaza :
...a man who departs from evil from fear of punishment, like a slave in fear of his master, gradually comes to doing good voluntarily—at first like a hireling in the hope of some reward for his good action. If he continues thus constantly to avoid evil from fear, like a slave, and to do good in the hope of reward like a hireling, then, abiding by God's grace in the good and thus correspondingly uniting with God, he finally acquires a taste for the good, comes to a certain sense of what is truly good, and no longer wishes to be parted from it. Then he attains to the dignity of a son and loves good for its own sake; and although he fears, he does so because he loves. This is great and perfect fear...

---------------
Abba Anthony said, “I no longer fear God, but I love him; for perfect love casts out fear.”

 

[RKO]

Here's what I have always had a problem with. God's mercy has been likened for lack of a better example, to the relationship between a parent and child. The VAST majority of sins that this child could commit would not necessarily result in the parents saying the child has "rejected THEM," and therefore cast him off to whatever fate awaits him.
In this example, there are very very few actions that a child could do that would result in that judgment by any good parent. Others will judge and have little to no mercy perhaps, but in almost every case, they are still the child's parents and will not cast them off.
Is God less merciful?

I know it goes against the teachings of a LOT of Churches, but I just don't believe a merciful God would limit his mercy to a lesser point than the creatures he created...

EDIT/UPDATE/EUREKA MOMENT!
This point may be helpful to the original poster. My point above is EXACTLY why I believe in the Orthodox idea about the afterlife. As an Orthodox, you are taught to believe that God NEVER casts anybody off. The idea of all souls residing in the same presence of God, under the same warming or melting Sun, resolves my dilemma completely. I believe that the Orthodox teaching on this is the ONLY teaching on what happens after death that makes complete sense. I remember when I was a kid how horrified I was to be near my father who I loved more than anything when I had done something wrong and I knew he knew it. He didn't HAVE to do anything to punish me, I punished myself PLENTY.

Thank you Holy Orthodoxy for finally answering a lifelong question for me! And by the way, to the OP, I am at the moment, still Catholic...

 

[truefiction1]

In addition about fear's from thread "fear of God" http://www.christianforums.com/t7703060/ :

Dorotheous of Gaza :
...a man who departs from evil from fear of punishment, like a slave in fear of his master, gradually comes to doing good voluntarily—at first like a hireling in the hope of some reward for his good action. If he continues thus constantly to avoid evil from fear, like a slave, and to do good in the hope of reward like a hireling, then, abiding by God's grace in the good and thus correspondingly uniting with God, he finally acquires a taste for the good, comes to a certain sense of what is truly good, and no longer wishes to be parted from it. Then he attains to the dignity of a son and loves good for its own sake; and although he fears, he does so because he loves. This is great and perfect fear...

---------------
Abba Anthony said, “I no longer fear God, but I love him; for perfect love casts out fear.”

I concur with this.

 

[HopefulDays]

This point may be helpful to the original poster. My point above is EXACTLY why I believe in the Orthodox idea about the afterlife. As an Orthodox, you are taught to believe that God NEVER casts anybody off. The idea of all souls residing in the same presence of God, under the same warming or melting Sun, resolves my dilemma completely.

Yes! This notion of rejection, which seemed all any church taught, has always unsettled me. I couldn't believe when I read that the Orthodox taught something different! (I always assumed the Orthodox would be even more fire-and-brimstone, given the name "Orthodox"--whoops!) Whether or not I become Orthodox, I will probably retain this view of the afterlife. To me, if makes worlds more sense than any other in the scope of God's love--and I never even knew it even existed!

From one still-Catholic to another, thank you.

 

[RKO]

Yes! This notion of rejection, which seemed all any church taught, has always unsettled me. I couldn't believe when I read that the Orthodox taught something different! (I always assumed the Orthodox would be even more fire-and-brimstone, given the name "Orthodox"--whoops!) Whether or not I become Orthodox, I will probably retain this view of the afterlife. To me, if makes worlds more sense than any other in the scope of God's love--and I never even knew it even existed!

From one still-Catholic to another, thank you.

I should mention that I engaged the same debate at a noted Catholic forum. There were decent arguments made that God in fact doesn't ever reject anybody in Catholic theology either. How well you can KNOW that you are rejecting God by a sin was a subject of discussion.
However, the similarities sort of fell apart. At the end of the thread, I asked the question that if an atheist can safely say that he can not KNOW that he is rejecting God, does that mean his sins are lessened. At that point the thread was almost immediately closed...

 

[Yoder777]

sure, anything improperly understood and enacted can be psychologically damaging. guilt can weigh us down or motivate us to repent - same w/ fear. Christ Himself spoke often of hell and how much its gonna suck.

Jesus, if we understand him from his first-century Jewish context, used metaphorical, hyperbolic language in describing hell. And it was usually in warnings against people who considered themselves the most religiously fit of his society.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Imagine what a marriage would look like if a man was only kind to his wife out of fear that she would divorce him. Would that lead to love or resentment? True...if you are unkind and abusive to your wife, she may leave you. But you base your marriage on your mutual love, not fear of being alone.

 

[jckstraw72]

Jesus, if we understand him from his first-century Jewish context, used metaphorical, hyperbolic language in describing hell. And it was usually in warnings against people who considered themselves the most religiously fit of his society.

whether metaphorical or literal, He spoke of a place/state that we want to steer away from. Someone posted Abba Dorotheos speaking of the motivation of fear.

 

[Dorothea]

Can you perhaps name some church fathers that taught this? Not that I believe you're wrong, quite the contrary, I just want to get more familiar with the Patristic teachings that go along these lines.

Thanks bro.

St. Isaac the Syrian is one:

As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

Words from St. Isaac of Syria Glory to God for All Things

 

[beardedone]

To the OP--I would recommend talking to a priest about your OCD and the issue of Hell. From my perspective, it sounds as if you might want to put your thinking about Hell on the back-burner for a while. I think the obsession with Hell is actually quite unhealthy in many Christian circles.

 

[truthseeker32]

If what I say is seen as inappropriate, feel free to disregard this post.

I want to reiterate once again for the sake of accuracy that the Catholic (in communion with Rome) position should be understood accurately, so I will briefly raise a few points. Feel free to raise objections if you can find doctrinal evidence that what I say is wrong.

1. Catholics DO NOT believe God ever rejects us. We reject him through sin.

2. A mortal sin must meet the three following categories: It must be a grave matter, it must be done with full knowledge that it is grave, and it must be done freely. Imagine that you are a Roman Catholic and you know that it is very important to go to Mass, for it is there that the body of Christ comes together, and further that God commanded it. What is your action saying if, in spite of this knowledge you choose not to attend Mass? You are consciously rejecting God. This says something about the state of your very soul. How likely do you think it is that a person who resists God's will with a full knowledge will be saved?

3. Catholics are not to make such judgments about another's actions. We know what constitutes a mortal sin, but we do not know when a mortal sin is committed since we cannot know the mind and heart of others. Thus we can say missing Mass is a grave matter, but not that missing Mass is always a mortal sin. Catholic doctrine clearly rejects this. As I have previously stated, it may be the case that mortal sin is extremely rare, for how many people freely choose to do something grave that they know to be wrong?

4. Catholics have not made any definitive statements regarding who, if anyone is in hell. Plenty of people have died having missed Mass. If there was some cut and dry rule that every act of missing Mass is a mortal sin, the Catholic Church wouldn't take an agnostic position; rather they would have a whole list of people in hell.

Forgive me if I have caused offense, my brothers and sisters.

 

[truthseeker32]

At the end of the thread, I asked the question that if an atheist can safely say that he can not KNOW that he is rejecting God, does that mean his sins are lessened. At that point the thread was almost immediately closed...

This question can be answered with appeal to official Roman Catholic doctrine. If mortal sin is required to be a grave act, committed freely and with full knowledge then we can simply say that if the atheist is not committing mortal sin unless he meets all three of these qualifiers. If it is a grave act, but he doesn't know it is grave, then he is not committing mortal sin. If it is a grave act, and he knows it is grave, but he doesn't do the action freely, then it is not a mortal sin.

By definition, to reject something you have to have knowledge of it. Thus God can't be rejected unless known and understood. Just as is it said that nobody hates the Catholic Church, but only what they think the Catholic Church is, people don't tend to reject God, but only heir false idea of who God is.

 

[InnerPhyre]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

That's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on hell. Clearly this is problematic from an Eastern View because it is the presence of God, not His absence, that causes the pain of Hell. God is everywhere. You cannot escape Him.

A big part of this difference is a mistranslation of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in most Western Translations, it is something like:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


A better translation is:

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, FROM the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.


The punishment is FROM God's presence, not AWAY FROM. The KJV gets it right:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;