Orthodoxy and Sin as Addiction

[SuperCloud]

A week or two weeks ago I read over some essay online composed by someone that is Eastern Orthodox. The author of the essay addressing the issue of homosexuality stated more or less that sins take on an addictive nature and that homosexuality is an addiction.

I was surprised to read this. But pleased. I had thought I was the first and only person to propose that homosexuality (and heterosexuality and pedophilia and zoophilia) is an addiction. A functional addiction like heterosexuality or pedophilia. But apparently I was not.

This view from that Orthodox author spoke well to my own experiences with sin, sexual or otherwise. And I said to myself... Orthodoxy must be the Church of Christ and has something to say that I ought listen too.

In Catholicism, culturally, I've never come across the view of sin in this way. And most in Catholicism view homosexuality in particular, heterosexuality too, as impossible to be environmentally influenced. And they certainly don't view it as an addiction, in fact most would take umbrage at putting good and holy homosexuals in the same category as those dirty and vile drug addicts. Yet, a Brazilian transsexual interviewed on a show I watched on youtube, married to a man she says, acting as the mother to his children, says her and her lesbian friend got drunk one night, had sex, and she fathered a child. So, she impregnated her lesbian friend.

Alcohol would be an environmental influence in this case.

Anyways... I was pleased (though I felt less unique) reading someone propose something much the same I did (about homosexuality), and intrigued by viewing sin as something that takes on an addictive nature.

 

[jckstraw72]

oh yeah, sin is totally addicting. the more we give in to any particular sin, the more likely we are to give in the next time, and eventually the sin will become a passion that dominates our lives. we will never lose our free will to the sin, but it will become very hard to overcome it. this is true for homosexuality and all sins.

 

[ArmyMatt]

definitely, there could have come a point where the prodigal son thought that the only thing in the world was the pigpen, and it just came to dominate him and his thinking.

 

[SuperCloud]

And then it might seem to follow, that if your habits are "rightly ordered," orthodox we might say, such as heterosexual attractions, then those orthodoxies are more likely to blossom in your subconsciousness.

Then again, there are men that have married women, produced children in those marriages, but remain homosexual. Likewise with men like Jerry Sandusky who was married to a woman but still had sexual attractions to young boys. You also have heterosexual men that have affairs with other women. So, it would appear even developing "orthodox" habits won't necessarily change deeper desires and longing dominating you.

Then again... even if a person is married and practicing "orthodox" habits can we say for sure what thoughts they are practicing in their minds?

It's not just homosexual people that stay for years in romantic and sexual relationships that are a contradiction of their own sexual orientation. Heterosexual people have done it too. But just from the people I've met I would say this is almost elusively a female heterosexual thing. I've met heterosexual women that stayed in lesbian relationships for years before abandoning lesbianism altogether having a principal attraction to men and wanting a husband.

Though I'm biracial, have a white mother, reared around ethnic Black-Americans, I developed a sexual attraction mainly to Black-American females early in my childhood, whereas both my brothers have primarily been attracted to white women. Why? Genetic inheritance? Then why has my sexual attractions become far broader over time as my life experiences have broadened? I wouldn't even say black women are who I'm mostly attracted to now. I'm also less stuck on one narrow range of body type on a woman.

And body shape deals with morphology. I find plenty of transsexuals (born male) sexually attractive, due in no small part to their morphological features and feminine dress and mannerisms.

Even many (not all) gay men are primarily attracted to what they in the gay community call "twinks." Which are humans with male morphological features that also have more "gracile" features. "Gracile" vs "robust" being terms anthropologists use. All males (every single one) have "gracile" features and develop more and more "robust" features the more their bodies physically mature. And you see photos of the actress Raven Symone with her "stud" girlfriend (they are lovers) who looks in anthropological terms like a teenage boy (gracile male). Raven Symone is 28 years old. Her attractions (genitals excepted, but most people don't see genitals because most people passing by are clothed) mirror that of gay men into "twinks." And there are a lot of women into the boyish looking "studs." No wonder adult female teachers are sometimes caught having sex with teenage boys.

Sexual attractions are not set genetically determined phenotypes. My skin color and eye color remains the same. Albeit, some peoples pigmentation can change, and it's not unusual to find elderly black men who eye color supposedly has changed to blue. But your average person can not drink alcohol or take some illegal drugs and their eye color or skin color changes. But your average person can drink alcohol until they are very intoxicated, or take particular drugs that make them very sexually aroused, and find themselves engaged in sexual behaviors they would otherwise not do while sober of mind. Many heterosexual women have been known to get "gang banged" while very drunk. HIV is now spiking upward in Thailand due in part to gay men in gay clubs taking the drug ecstasy (I think it's that drug) and having sex with multiple men. Is the gay club seen involving drugs a genetically inherited phenotype behavior, or is it not but rather part of a broader habit forming sin?

But this idea of sins becoming addictive to the point of dominating you seems to help explain why heterosexual women that are street prostitutes often find it hard to leave the streets and prostitution. And if they leave it might quickly return once things go bad.

Likewise, with hoodlums and gangsters that seem addicted to their street ways of life and crime. They seem to have the opposite attachments as those of the monks of Mt. Athos.

 

[Knee V]

When we are very tired and want to go to sleep, the more we give in to our fatigue the more it overwhelms and overtakes us, and the more difficult (but never impossible) it becomes to wake ourselves back up again.

Sin is very similar.

But I wouldn't limit our understanding of sin to the analogy of addiction. No single human explanation can ever be a perfect catch-all definition.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Since good ole Rus isn't here, I'll say this in his place...

Can we all stop feeding the propaganda of linguistics and calling them "homosexuals" and instead rather just say "people suffering from SSA?"

When we use the secular terminology, steadily it is absorbed by us and we start to accept things on their terms using their modernist lingo that is rooted in the idea that these folks are substantially, innately, spiritually predetermined and front loaded with a sin.

 

[SuperCloud]

But I wouldn't limit our understanding of sin to the analogy of addiction. No single human explanation can ever be a perfect catch-all definition.

Hey, I like that sleep analogy. Wish I had thought of that. Sounds spiritual (and true).

But you might be on to something about no analogy be entirely adequate. When I read your statement I thought of demonic possessions and their lesser domination of simply harassing or appealing to minds in away they like.

One thing that always troubled me and I could not figure out, is why old school mafia men extorted, abducted, tortured, murdered and stole businesses from legitimate small businessmen (such as the vending machine business in Milwaukee) if they were raised in a pre-Vatican II culture? A culture were one mortal sin is sufficient to send you to hell forever. Though, I realize that is a Latin Catholic thing and not an Eastern Orthodox attitude towards sin. Nonetheless, wouldn't that mere fear have stopped wicked Chicago mobster like Sam "the hook"... whatever his last name is? The guy that hung (apparently even innocent men his paranoia viewed as snitching) men from meat hooks in his basement, and then tortured them.

Since good ole Rus isn't here, I'll say this in his place...

Can we all stop feeding the propaganda of linguistics and calling them "homosexuals" and instead rather just say "people suffering from SSA?"

When we use the secular terminology, steadily it is absorbed by us and we start to accept things on their terms using their modernist lingo that is rooted in the idea that these folks are substantially, innately, spiritually predetermined and front loaded with a sin.

I've heard other people object to the use of the word homo-sexual. I am aware of "Identity Politics" but I'm not certain what the objection to the descriptive term "homosexual" is over.

There are young people now coming out as pansexual. Meaning they different from bisexuals because the body and gender or outward looks of the person does not matter. They are merely sexually attracted to the "interior person." The new rise of pansexuals threatens the narrative of homosexual and heterosexual people that they were "born this way." As if people knew at age 1 they were heterosexual or homosexual.

The Brazilians have an interesting conception of homosexuality or what you prefer to term as people suffering from same sex attractions. Their cultural view is more akin to the ancient Romans. They don't view men that are the "pitchers" (if they only "pitch") as gay. Only those that are on the receiving end they view as gay.

The Brazilians differ about race too. They have dark skinned whites the way Americans have light skinned blacks. More than one Brazilian online has told me that Rev. Wright, the former Black-American pastor of Obama, would be considered white in Brazil.

This not only begs what is "white" but what is truly "homosexual," too, given the Americans and Brazilians contradict each other on both. Science is only looking at sexual attractions through the cultural lens of Americans or Anglo and Germans and thus labeling "homosexuality" according to these cultural biases. Or if it has trouble it simply lumps it into the "bisexual" category.

Science trying to find sexual attractions as "fixed" simply ignores the phenomenon of "gay for pay" heterosexual men. Of course, there are biologist that view human sexual attractions as fluid and very nuanced. But they they don't get any media attention.

Of course, science does speak to or about "sins." That's the job of theology or religion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Defining a person by their struggle is really never productive if you think about it. If someone is struggling with the sin of refusing to forgive someone, do we give them a permanent identity for that? Are they "forgivenessrefusers?" Or if someone struggles with lustful feelings about women when he is already married are they permanently given the moniker of "hot chick-obsessed gawkers?" Or if someone struggles with jealousy, do we call them "jealousers?"

Then why do we take a man or woman who, thanks to the Fall, struggle with same sex attraction and LABEL them as a "sexuality." "Sexuality" was never a term the ancients used. Attractions and compulsions and desires don't define people. I think "gay" and "lesbian" and "bisexual" and such actually demean these folks. Is their sexual attraction preference INTRINSIC and innate? Is it attached to their souls and persona?

I would say no. They are victims of the Fall as we all are, just with a unique struggle.

Hey, I like that sleep analogy. Wish I had thought of that. Sounds spiritual (and true).

But you might be on to something about no analogy be entirely adequate. When I read your statement I thought of demonic possessions and their lesser domination of simply harassing or appealing to minds in away they like.

One thing that always troubled me and I could not figure out, is why old school mafia men extorted, abducted, tortured, murdered and stole businesses from legitimate small businessmen (such as the vending machine business in Milwaukee) if they were raised in a pre-Vatican II culture? A culture were one mortal sin is sufficient to send you to hell forever. Though, I realize that is a Latin Catholic thing and not an Eastern Orthodox attitude towards sin. Nonetheless, wouldn't that mere fear have stopped wicked Chicago mobster like Sam "the hook"... whatever his last name is? The guy that hung (apparently even innocent men his paranoia viewed as snitching) men from meat hooks in his basement, and then tortured them.



I've heard other people object to the use of the word homo-sexual. I am aware of "Identity Politics" but I'm not certain what the objection to the descriptive term "homosexual" is over.

There are young people now coming out as pansexual. Meaning they different from bisexuals because the body and gender or outward looks of the person does not matter. They are merely sexually attracted to the "interior person." The new rise of pansexuals threatens the narrative of homosexual and heterosexual people that they were "born this way." As if people knew at age 1 they were heterosexual or homosexual.

The Brazilians have an interesting conception of homosexuality or what you prefer to term as people suffering from same sex attractions. Their cultural view is more akin to the ancient Romans. They don't view men that are the "pitchers" (if they only "pitch") as gay. Only those that are on the receiving end they view as gay.

The Brazilians differ about race too. They have dark skinned whites the way Americans have light skinned blacks. More than one Brazilian online has told me that Rev. Wright, the former Black-American pastor of Obama, would be considered white in Brazil.

This not only begs what is "white" but what is truly "homosexual," too, given the Americans and Brazilians contradict each other on both. Science is only looking at sexual attractions through the cultural lens of Americans or Anglo and Germans and thus labeling "homosexuality" according to these cultural biases. Or if it has trouble it simply lumps it into the "bisexual" category.

Science trying to find sexual attractions as "fixed" simply ignores the phenomenon of "gay for pay" heterosexual men. Of course, there are biologist that view human sexual attractions as fluid and very nuanced. But they they don't get any media attention.

Of course, science does speak to or about "sins." That's the job of theology or religion.

 

[SuperCloud]

Okay, now I see what you mean by that, gurney.

But let me ask you, how do you feel about the labels "pedophile" or "drug addict"?

By the way, here is something Raven Symone supposedly said to Oprah:

(Like you she objects to labels, including being called gay or African-American, although she apparently does not view "American" as a label)

former Cosby kid Raven-Symoné, now 28, confirmed that she is currently in "an amazing, happy relationship" with a female partner.

The blue bold highlight is my emphasis.

As a drug addict (me) this is telling to me; when viewed along side those that become depressed and/or irritable abstaining from sex with those they want to have sex and romance with.

Consider the people with decades of sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous and Cocaine Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous all the equivalents of male and female monastics. The monks and nuns sober or abstaining from sex.

One telling attribute of an addict, say an alcoholic, is they become depressed or irritable when abstaining from what they are addicted to, in the case of the alcoholic alcohol.

So why are monks on Mt. Athos happy even without having a sexual and romantic relationship with a woman, but a heterosexual man and homosexual man in say... Chicago both going 2 years without sex and a romantic partner are depressed?

Usually in the beginning of all drug addiction and alcoholism the times are "amazing" and great. One looks and feels like this --> . And that may go on for years, in the case of alcohol even decades possibly before a problem and a sad face develops. What was once beautiful and great becomes hell on earth.

Or take marijuana and little children. If you are an adult and have no attachment to marijuana you won't become depressed or irritable if it is taken away from you. Likewise if you can never have sex with children; if you're not attached to children by a sexual attraction towards them, then not having access to them sexually will cause you no depression or irritability.

So, Raven Symone is happy in a sexual relationship traditional Christianity says is immoral. Yet, a Christian that is trying to deny themselves sex with a person of the same sex, like a "dry drunk" alcoholic trying to deny themselves alcohol, is depressed.

This evidences addiction. And it interlocks with roads or perceived paths to happiness and fulfillment.

Now, being friends with a number of lesbians since I was a teenager, I noticed they all were a lot happier when we were teens than they are know in their 40s. Some even desire a man in their life for stability purposes related to both producing and rearing children (three already have produced children with a man, two left women, and one of those two has returned back to women). Which leads me to believe "lesbianism" is young woman's game. Perhaps related to the beauty of youth. However, I can't deny some lesbians in their 40s or 60s are happy just having romance and sex with one or more women.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is a very fascinating analysis, SC. Very, very interesting angle.

Human beings are extremely prone to addiction. Sin breeds it. Some of us like the taste of food so much that we want more and learn how it feeds our dopamine in our brains and it becomes a crutch. Some of us do the same thing with sex, inappropriate content, booze, narcs, gambling, and all sorts of behaviors. It all stems from the Fall of Man. We're just a mess waiting to happen.

Thanks be to God that we have a generous, loving Lord who understands that our nature is so given to such folly and His grace and life-changing sacraments can interrupt the flow of these addictions and breathe new life into the chemistry of our souls!

Okay, now I see what you mean by that, gurney.

But let me ask you, how do you feel about the labels "pedophile" or "drug addict"?

By the way, here is something Raven Symone supposedly said to Oprah:

(Like you she objects to labels, including being called gay or African-American, although she apparently does not view "American" as a label)



The blue bold highlight is my emphasis.

As a drug addict (me) this is telling to me; when viewed along side those that become depressed and/or irritable abstaining from sex with those they want to have sex and romance with.

Consider the people with decades of sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous and Cocaine Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous all the equivalents of male and female monastics. The monks and nuns sober or abstaining from sex.

One telling attribute of an addict, say an alcoholic, is they become depressed or irritable when abstaining from what they are addicted to, in the case of the alcoholic alcohol.

So why are monks on Mt. Athos happy even without having a sexual and romantic relationship with a woman, but a heterosexual man and homosexual man in say... Chicago both going 2 years without sex and a romantic partner are depressed?

Usually in the beginning of all drug addiction and alcoholism the times are "amazing" and great. One looks and feels like this --> . And that may go on for years, in the case of alcohol even decades possibly before a problem and a sad face develops. What was once beautiful and great becomes hell on earth.

Or take marijuana and little children. If you are an adult and have no attachment to marijuana you won't become depressed or irritable if it is taken away from you. Likewise if you can never have sex with children; if you're not attached to children by a sexual attraction towards them, then not having access to them sexually will cause you no depression or irritability.

So, Raven Symone is happy in a sexual relationship traditional Christianity says is immoral. Yet, a Christian that is trying to deny themselves sex with a person of the same sex, like a "dry drunk" alcoholic trying to deny themselves alcohol, is depressed.

This evidences addiction. And it interlocks with roads or perceived paths to happiness and fulfillment.

Now, being friends with a number of lesbians since I was a teenager, I noticed they all were a lot happier when we were teens than they are know in their 40s. Some even desire a man in their life for stability purposes related to both producing and rearing children (three already have produced children with a man, two left women, and one of those two has returned back to women). Which leads me to believe "lesbianism" is young woman's game. Perhaps related to the beauty of youth. However, I can't deny some lesbians in their 40s or 60s are happy just having romance and sex with one or more women.

 

[MilesVitae]

And most in Catholicism view homosexuality in particular, heterosexuality too, as impossible to be environmentally influenced. And they certainly don't view it as an addiction, in fact most would take umbrage at putting good and holy homosexuals in the same category as those dirty and vile drug addicts.

plenty of Catholics I personally know believe homosexuality is, in fact, a product of environmental influence and would claim that it has an addictive quality to it... Although I will grant that even many orthodox, conservative Catholics sometimes take on too...diplomatic...an attitude towards the matter.