Orthodoxy and Old Catholicism

[Cappadocious]

I think the church is the Body of Christ, which is composed of all true believers. I think a local gathering may or may not be a true church.

Why is this view important to you? What consequences are you afraid will follow if you abandon it?

I don't think Jesus founded or meant to found any institution.

What do you mean by an institution? I assume you don't mean something instituted (as to found an institution is to institute, and I suspect you'd permit Jesus some instituting).

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

They may hold more similiar beliefs to us than the RC, usually they will say they only hold to the 7 ecumenical councils. But their ethos is radically different. They dont hold to traditional morality, they are more akin to liberal anglicanism.

True. The exception is the Polish National Church, which seems very similar to Western Rite Orthodox. Would that they were.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But see, you and I apparently have different definitions about what constitutes the Body of Christ.

I know, but if you read the book of Acts, even after people come to believe in Christ, they are still received into the existing and historical Body of Christ. Paul went to Ananias, the Ethiopian Eunuch was with Philip, etc. and you don't see your definition of the Body of Christ in the early centuries, and not even in the early years after the Reformation. the idea of some invisible Church that exists across denominations is a very modern belief.

 

[CelticRebel]

Why is this view important to you? What consequences are you afraid will follow if you abandon it?

A "superchurch". A hierarchy which can impose man-made doctrines.


What do you mean by an institution? I assume you don't mean something instituted (as to found an institution is to institute, and I suspect you'd permit Jesus some instituting).

For lack of a better term -- a denomination, or conglomerate. In the NT, what we see are individual churches: the church which is at Corinth, etc. There was nothing like the "Roman Catholic Church", the Methodist Church", the Presbyterian Church", or even the "Orthodox Church". A church was a local assembly.

 

[CelticRebel]

I know, but if you read the book of Acts, even after people come to believe in Christ, they are still received into the existing and historical Body of Christ. Paul went to Ananias, the Ethiopian Eunuch was with Philip, etc. and you don't see your definition of the Body of Christ in the early centuries, and not even in the early years after the Reformation. the idea of some invisible Church that exists across denominations is a very modern belief.

In the NT, the church was a local assembly, not a conglomerate administered by a hierarch in some far away place.

 

[RileyG]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong- isn't "Old Catholicism" basically like the Episcopal Church here in the United States in worship, beliefs and morals?

I have a friend who is a Roman Catholic (not practicing, still identifies oddly enough) and goes to the Polish National Catholic Church because the priest there agree with her liberal views on things such as Obama, Abortion, SS"M" etc, so I do not think they are similar to the EOC in that regard.

 

[ArmyMatt]

In the NT, the church was a local assembly, not a conglomerate administered by a hierarch in some far away place.

you are right, and that is how the Orthodox Church works. you submit to your local bishop. the heirarchs are not is some far away place. it's only like that in America because of the massive influx of immigrants due to communists, so Orthodoxy took hold in a different fashion.

 

[CelticRebel]

you are right, and that is how the Orthodox Church works. you submit to your local bishop. the heirarchs are not is some far away place. it's only like that in America because of the massive influx of immigrants due to communists, so Orthodoxy took hold in a different fashion.

Yes, another thing I do like about Orthodoxy is that it does not function like so many Western denominations do, or like the RCC does.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, another thing I do like about Orthodoxy is that it does not function like so many Western denominations do, or like the RCC does.

makes two of us. that is the Biblical model.

 

[CelticRebel]

makes two of us. that is the Biblical model.

AM, I appreciate all your helpful replies.

 

[Cappadocious]

A "superchurch". A hierarchy which can impose man-made doctrines.

If we have any hierarchy at all---even if we just regard certain people spiritually advanced, with no formal position---we will always have the risk of one of these people imposing man-made doctrines. We also have the risk of imposing man-made doctrines on ourselves.

An invisible church doctrine doesn't seem to help with this. It also seems to ignore what Jesus said about the tares and the wheat: They grow up together, and are only separated in the end.

 

[buzuxi02]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong- isn't "Old Catholicism" basically like the Episcopal Church here in the United States in worship, beliefs and morals?

I have a friend who is a Roman Catholic (not practicing, still identifies oddly enough) and goes to the Polish National Catholic Church because the priest there agree with her liberal views on things such as Obama, Abortion, SS"M" etc, so I do not think they are similar to the EOC in that regard.

This is correct. The word I used to describe them in comparison with Orthodoxy is they have vastly different "ethos", perhaps an even better word would be a vastly different phronema.

Comparing old catholics to Orthodox is like thinking two people that have an obsession with music are a kindred spirit to only find out one is a country music buff from the south while the other is a rapper from the west coast.

 

[CelticRebel]

This is correct. The word I used to describe them in comparison with Orthodoxy is they have vastly different "ethos", perhaps an even better word would be a vastly different phronema.

Comparing old catholics to Orthodox is like thinking two people that have an obsession with music are a kindred spirit to only find out one is a country music buff from the south while the other is a rapper from the west coast.

I like that analogy!

 

[RobNJ]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong- isn't "Old Catholicism" basically like the Episcopal Church here in the United States in worship, beliefs and morals?

I have a friend who is a Roman Catholic (not practicing, still identifies oddly enough) and goes to the Polish National Catholic Church because the priest there agree with her liberal views on things such as Obama, Abortion, SS"M" etc, so I do not think they are similar to the EOC in that regard.

They share a forum here at CF, and here is a "run-down" on them:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1161975/

 

[ArmyMatt]

A "superchurch". A hierarchy which can impose man-made doctrines.

there are also instances where the Emperor and the bishops were in error and it took the laity to correct them. sorta like St Maximos the Confessor, who was a lay monk, and it was he who really was the champion against the Monothelite heresy. all of the bishops and folks in power were shown to be heretics by this one, lone layman.

 

[Wryetui]

I have a question about this subject again. If we are the One True Church, why does God help everyone, even the people outside the Church? Roman-Catholics claim to have thousands of apparitions of the Virgin Mary, even among the protestant churches they claim to do exorcism, God helping them everytime, wonders and miracle healings, why is that? Shouldn't God's grace be only within His Church?

 

[dzheremi]

Why would God ever be bound by jurisdiction or communion, Wyretui? I mean, you have asked a fair question, but maybe living in Romania as you do, where it is normal for everyone to be Orthodox, it would be good to be reminded that in non-Orthodox countries most increases in Orthodox faithful are by conversion, not birth. If God can only work within the Church, how are people who are completely outside of it (again, this is most people) ever supposed to come to know it? We can't all just accidentally stumble into an Orthodox Church on the way to a Catholic mass or a Mormon meeting or something.

 

[All4Christ]

I have a question about this subject again. If we are the One True Church, why does God help everyone, even the people outside the Church? Roman-Catholics claim to have thousands of apparitions of the Virgin Mary, even among the protestant churches they claim to do exorcism, God helping them everytime, wonders and miracle healings, why is that? Shouldn't God's grace be only within His Church?

Generally speaking, the way I have been taught about this is that we know where God is, but not where God isn't. In other words - we know that the Orthodox Church is Truth, but God isn't bound by that. Often, God's working in the lives of those outside the Church is part of what leads people to the Truth of Orthodoxy. I would be one of those people!

 

[Cappadocious]

I have a question about this subject again. If we are the One True Church, why does God help everyone, even the people outside the Church? Roman-Catholics claim to have thousands of apparitions of the Virgin Mary, even among the protestant churches they claim to do exorcism, God helping them everytime, wonders and miracle healings, why is that? Shouldn't God's grace be only within His Church?

It is only through the Church, but this does mean that it cannot shine forth beyond the bounds of the Church. Pick up a rock. See how that rock exists? Were it not for God's grace, where would it be?