Orthodoxy and Old Catholicism

jckstraw72

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prolly the group that rejected Vatican I and split off at that time. they reject Papal Infallibility. they may be more similar to us in their theology and worship, but still, they are not members of the True Church.
 
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Wryetui

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Hey Jesse. I like very much your posts and I was wondering if you could help me with some questions I have. You are an orthodox as I am so you undoubtely think that we are part of the True Church, but, what do you think about the other churches? Does God save people from other churches or just the ones in our church? Why is it important belonging to the true church and not just believing in Jesus as protestants say?
 
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jckstraw72

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i think Met. Philaret of New York answers this question pretty well: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?

basically, it's not up to us to judge if those outside the Church will find salvation. Certainly God desires their salvation. but it's important to be in the Church because salvation is not just about being saved from the consequences of our sins, as many Protestants think. it's not just about avoiding Hell, but rather salvation is about becoming more and more like Christ - which does not mean simply doing good things. Holiness is something else entirely, and we see this in the Saints who were overflowing with grace. We want to become like Christ - and for this it is necessary to be united to His Body and to receive His Body in the Eucharist. theosis is only within the Church.
 
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CelticRebel

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i think Met. Philaret of New York answers this question pretty well: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?

basically, it's not up to us to judge if those outside the Church will find salvation. Certainly God desires their salvation. but it's important to be in the Church because salvation is not just about being saved from the consequences of our sins, as many Protestants think. it's not just about avoiding Hell, but rather salvation is about becoming more and more like Christ - which does not mean simply doing good things. Holiness is something else entirely, and we see this in the Saints who were overflowing with grace. We want to become like Christ - and for this it is necessary to be united to His Body and to receive His Body in the Eucharist. theosis is only within the Church.

I think the article is mostly good, but I strongly disagree with this: "I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."
 
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rusmeister

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I must say I have a problem with exclusivity, or the idea that "we are the one true church", and nobody else is. The one true church is not an institution; it is composed of all true believers everywhere, in every denomination, or not in any.

I understand what you're saying. And I would stress that we DON'T think this adds up to any guarantees on our salvation. Many who strive to be holy outside the Church will likely be saved, and many who fail to even try within the Church may well be among the goats.

But the Church must surely be One Thing, both physically present in the world, with the power to correct us when we err, and spiritually present across space and time. How can different churches that deny each others teachings be united? How can they be one Church, when they flatly contradict each other on what Truth is? There must be a Church, physically present in the world, that has maintained the original doctrines and correctly interpreted them throughout history, or the Christian Faith is vain.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I must say I have a problem with exclusivity, or the idea that "we are the one true church", and nobody else is. The one true church is not an institution; it is composed of all true believers everywhere, in every denomination, or not in any.

many folks do, but Christ only established one Body on earth, not many. even in Acts when St. Paul meets Christ on the Damascus road, he still had to be received into the existing One Church.

now, we don't pass judgments on those outside of the Church, and anyone outside the Church is certainly not outside of salvation, but for all those who are saved in the end, they will be Orthodox. so its best to join the Church now. the devout and prayerful Baptist/Muslim/pagan/etc who is saved just converts on Judgment Day.
 
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CelticRebel

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I understand what you're saying. And I would stress that we DON'T think this adds up to any guarantees on our salvation. Many who strive to be holy outside the Church will likely be saved, and many who fail to even try within the Church may well be among the goats.

But the Church must surely be One Thing, both physically present in the world, with the power to correct us when we err, and spiritually present across space and time. How can different churches that deny each others teachings be united? How can they be one Church, when they flatly contradict each other on what Truth is? There must be a Church, physically present in the world, that has maintained the original doctrines and correctly interpreted them throughout history, or the Christian Faith is vain.

About your final sentence: I surely don't agree with the part I put in bold.

Concerning the first part -- if that were true, how would one determine which church that was? I don't see that any church meets that criteria. I see man-made doctrines and practices in all of them.

For me, I have had to try to narrow it down to the ones who I believe are closest to the NT and the earliest churches.
 
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CelticRebel

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many folks do, but Christ only established one Body on earth, not many. even in Acts when St. Paul meets Christ on the Damascus road, he still had to be received into the existing One Church.

now, we don't pass judgments on those outside of the Church, and anyone outside the Church is certainly not outside of salvation, but for all those who are saved in the end, they will be Orthodox. so its best to join the Church now. the devout and prayerful Baptist/Muslim/pagan/etc who is saved just converts on Judgment Day.

I find that to be an amazing statement.

Now I don't mean the following in a derogatory way, and you have been most helpful and kind to me. But, as much as I am drawn to much of what Orthodoxy teaches, that way of thinking about the church is what will likely keep me out of Orthodoxy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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But, as much as I am drawn to much of what Orthodoxy teaches, that way of thinking about the church is what will likely keep me out of Orthodoxy.

well, that is what St Paul says in Romans. that those outside the Body of Christ will be judged based on the law written on their heart. and I am not saying they will or won't, I am saying that is God's judgment to make.
 
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Cappadocious

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Celticrebel,

The notion you're espousing sounds like the invisible church doctrine, which came into its current form rather recently. Why don't you state your view, which many or may not be that doctrine, very directly and explicitly so that we can reason about it.
 
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CelticRebel

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well, that is what St Paul says in Romans. that those outside the Body of Christ will be judged based on the law written on their heart. and I am not saying they will or won't, I am saying that is God's judgment to make.

But see, you and I apparently have different definitions about what constitutes the Body of Christ.
 
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CelticRebel

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Celticrebel,

The notion you're espousing sounds like the invisible church doctrine, which came into its current form rather recently. Why don't you state your view, which many or may not be that doctrine, very directly and explicitly so that we can reason about it.

Okay, I'll try to pull what I've said in different places and forums together. But let me further differentiate it from what some other groups believe which I feel close to. The Baptists and many Anabaptists would hold that the church is a local, visible entity only, and not some larger institution. I partly agree with that, but not wholly. I think the church is the Body of Christ, which is composed of all true believers. I think a local gathering may or may not be a true church. The Anabaptists thought they could guarantee that the local body was a true church by use of the ban. I don't think that works.

So, my views here, as in many areas, do not fit neatly into any established position. I will say this: I don't think Jesus founded or meant to found any institution.
 
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Wryetui

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We don't see the church as only a "institution" like with the bad part of the word in it, an insitution seems very cold and just meant to make money and live in a legallistic way. That is definitively not our church.

I do think Christ left us an "institution" because we need some physical approach to Him, something we can see and touch, something that is both physical and spiritual, and something that has preserved the teachings and has not changed. The apostles themselves built churches, like the Antiochian church that now is Orthodox or the Roman church that now is Catholic. Although, I think that if you really want to find the truth don't approach it in a "I don't like it so I'm not going in" way, because things that you don't like may hold the truth. Rather than seeking what is convenient to you, seek what is true ;)
 
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CelticRebel

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We don't see the church as only a "institution" like with the bad part of the word in it, an insitution seems very cold and just meant to make money and live in a legallistic way. That is definitively not our church.

I do think Christ left us an "institution" because we need some physical approach to Him, something we can see and touch, something that is both physical and spiritual, and something that has preserved the teachings and has not changed. The apostles themselves built churches, like the Antiochian church that now is Orthodox or the Roman church that now is Catholic. Although, I think that if you really want to find the truth don't approach it in a "I don't like it so I'm not going in" way, because things that you don't like may hold the truth. Rather than seeking what is convenient to you, seek what is true ;)

I understand and appreciate what you are saying. And I didn't mean "institution" the way you described in your first paragraph.

I can assure you that I have not approached this in the way you described. I have sacrificed a lot in my search for truth. As I said in another post, I objectively set out to find the facts and the truth and was determined to follow wherever the evidence lead, whether I liked it or not, whether I even agreed with it or not. To this day, I have never found anyone else who could be that objective. But I wanted the truth, whatever the cost and whatever the result.
 
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buzuxi02

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What is the relationship, if any, between the Orthodox and the Old Catholics? How do the Orthodox view the Old Catholics?

They may hold more similiar beliefs to us than the RC, usually they will say they only hold to the 7 ecumenical councils. But their ethos is radically different. They dont hold to traditional morality, they are more akin to liberal anglicanism.
 
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