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CelticRebel
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What is the relationship, if any, between the Orthodox and the Old Catholics? How do the Orthodox view the Old Catholics?
Do you mean Utrecht Old Catholics? Or pre-schism Western Christianity?What is the relationship, if any, between the Orthodox and the Old Catholics? How do the Orthodox view the Old Catholics?
i think Met. Philaret of New York answers this question pretty well: Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
basically, it's not up to us to judge if those outside the Church will find salvation. Certainly God desires their salvation. but it's important to be in the Church because salvation is not just about being saved from the consequences of our sins, as many Protestants think. it's not just about avoiding Hell, but rather salvation is about becoming more and more like Christ - which does not mean simply doing good things. Holiness is something else entirely, and we see this in the Saints who were overflowing with grace. We want to become like Christ - and for this it is necessary to be united to His Body and to receive His Body in the Eucharist. theosis is only within the Church.
I must say I have a problem with exclusivity, or the idea that "we are the one true church", and nobody else is. The one true church is not an institution; it is composed of all true believers everywhere, in every denomination, or not in any.
I must say I have a problem with exclusivity, or the idea that "we are the one true church", and nobody else is. The one true church is not an institution; it is composed of all true believers everywhere, in every denomination, or not in any.
I understand what you're saying. And I would stress that we DON'T think this adds up to any guarantees on our salvation. Many who strive to be holy outside the Church will likely be saved, and many who fail to even try within the Church may well be among the goats.
But the Church must surely be One Thing, both physically present in the world, with the power to correct us when we err, and spiritually present across space and time. How can different churches that deny each others teachings be united? How can they be one Church, when they flatly contradict each other on what Truth is? There must be a Church, physically present in the world, that has maintained the original doctrines and correctly interpreted them throughout history, or the Christian Faith is vain.
many folks do, but Christ only established one Body on earth, not many. even in Acts when St. Paul meets Christ on the Damascus road, he still had to be received into the existing One Church.
now, we don't pass judgments on those outside of the Church, and anyone outside the Church is certainly not outside of salvation, but for all those who are saved in the end, they will be Orthodox. so its best to join the Church now. the devout and prayerful Baptist/Muslim/pagan/etc who is saved just converts on Judgment Day.
But, as much as I am drawn to much of what Orthodoxy teaches, that way of thinking about the church is what will likely keep me out of Orthodoxy.
well, that is what St Paul says in Romans. that those outside the Body of Christ will be judged based on the law written on their heart. and I am not saying they will or won't, I am saying that is God's judgment to make.
Celticrebel,
The notion you're espousing sounds like the invisible church doctrine, which came into its current form rather recently. Why don't you state your view, which many or may not be that doctrine, very directly and explicitly so that we can reason about it.
We don't see the church as only a "institution" like with the bad part of the word in it, an insitution seems very cold and just meant to make money and live in a legallistic way. That is definitively not our church.
I do think Christ left us an "institution" because we need some physical approach to Him, something we can see and touch, something that is both physical and spiritual, and something that has preserved the teachings and has not changed. The apostles themselves built churches, like the Antiochian church that now is Orthodox or the Roman church that now is Catholic. Although, I think that if you really want to find the truth don't approach it in a "I don't like it so I'm not going in" way, because things that you don't like may hold the truth. Rather than seeking what is convenient to you, seek what is true
What is the relationship, if any, between the Orthodox and the Old Catholics? How do the Orthodox view the Old Catholics?