origins of the remnant

ebedmelech

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That's not making your case Biblewriter. That's someone's interpretation on Isaiah 10:28-32.

My point is that the passage doesn't call this "the path Assyria took" (though that's possible), but even moreso, your statement that "And no ancient Assyrian king ever attacked Jerusalem by following the path defined in Isaiah 10:28-32.", does not have to be recorded to be true. 2 Kings 17:5 is sufficient, because it says:
5 Then the king of Assyria invaded the whole land and went up to Samaria and besieged it three years.

One thing I have looked at is that 2 Kings 18 makes a good case for Isaiah 10:28-32 because Sennacherib has besieged the whole region, took Samaria and dispersed them, and returned to Jerusalem. That will have him coming from the north.

I hold that based on the total reading of 2 Kings 15-19 and 2 Chronicles 28-32 we have more than enough evidence that Isaiah 10 was fulfilled. It doesn't have to utter "word for word" for it to be fulfilled, especially when Isaiah is prophesies to King Hezekiah and it ends God's use of Assyria. (Isaiah 36 & 37)

To think this Isaiah 10 is future in light of Assyria's attack of the "whole land" is ridiculous.
 
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Biblewriter

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That's not making your case Biblewriter. That's someone's interpretation on Isaiah 10:28-32.

The map shows the actual locations of the cities named. And the path is drawn through them in the exact order in which Isaiah 10:28-32 mentions them, plainly showing that they do indeed describe a path. And the words "that day" in verse 32 plainly shows that the Holy Spirit's intention was to show the time order in which these cities would be reached.

My point is that the passage doesn't call this "the path Assyria took" (though that's possible), but even moreso, your statement that "And no ancient Assyrian king ever attacked Jerusalem by following the path defined in Isaiah 10:28-32.", does not have to be recorded to be true. 2 Kings 17:5 is sufficient, because it says:
5 Then the king of Assyria invaded the whole land and went up to Samaria and besieged it three years.
You are simply refusing to admit what I have already pointed out, that this was said of an attack upon a different nation. This was said about an attack by Assyria on ISRAEL, not JUDAH. When the subject is ISRAEL, the term "the whole land" does not apply to Philistia, Babylon or Judah. It only means ISRAEL.
One thing I have looked at is that 2 Kings 18 makes a good case for Isaiah 10:28-32 because Sennacherib has besieged the whole region, took Samaria and dispersed them, and returned to Jerusalem. That will have him coming from the north.

There are two errors in your conclusion here. One is that the only way to take a fortified city is to lay siege to it. You cannot take ten cities in three days by laying siege to them. That takes time. A second one is that the Hebrew word translated all in 2 Kings 18:13 is "kol." this word means "all" in a general sense, like we often use the word all. But it does not necessarily mean absolutely all. In Exekiel 36:10, it is repeated to make the meaning absolutely all. The scriptures themselves say that after that was said, Jerusalem had not been conquered, and Sennacherib was laying seige to Lachish, and them moved on to Libnah. So we see that there were at least three fortified cities that had not been taken at the time this was said. The scriptures plainly show that this word "all" did not mean "absolutely all."

I hold that based on the total reading of 2 Kings 15-19 and 2 Chronicles 28-32 we have more than enough evidence that Isaiah 10 was fulfilled. It doesn't have to utter "word for word" for it to be fulfilled, especially when Isaiah is prophesies to King Hezekiah and it ends God's use of Assyria. (Isaiah 36 & 37)

To think this Isaiah 10 is future in light of Assyria's attack of the "whole land" is ridiculous.
2 Kings 15 speaks of Assyria's attack by Assyria on Menahem, King of ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
2 Kings 16 speaks of an attack on Judah by REZIN, KING OF SYRIA, not by ASSYRIA.
2 Kings 17 speaks of an attack by Assyria on Hoshea, king of ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
2 kings 18:9-11 speaks of an attack by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, against ISRAEL, not JUDAH, in the fourth to the sixth years of Hezekiah.
2 Kings 18:13-37 and all of 2 Kings 19 speaks of an attack by Sennacherib on Hezekiah, king of Judah in the fourteenth year of Hezekiah. So there is zero possibility that the Assyrians came to Jerusalem from Samaria. For the Assyrian attack on Hezekiah was by a different Assyrian king, five years after the end of the attack on Samaria.

And as I observed earlier, 2 Kings 18:17 very clearly says that when the Assyrians actually came to Jerusalem, they came from Lachish, which is south of Jerusalem, not north of it, as are ALL the cities mentioned in Isaiah 10:28-32.

2 Chronicles 28 does not speak of an attack by Assyria at all. It speaks of an ill advised covenant between Ahaz, king of Judah and Tiglath-Pileser, king of Assyria. But when the Assyrians came, they only distressed Ahaz, and did not help him.
2 Chronicles 29 speaks of an attack on Hezekiah, king of Judah, by Sennacherib, king of Assyria.
2 Chronicles 30 and 31 say nothing about any attacks by anyone.
and finally, 2 Chronicles 32 speaks of Hezekiah,s preparations for the attack that had been previously recorded in chapter 29.

The only other places where attacks by Assyria are mentioned in all of the Bible are:

1 Chronicles 5, which speaks of the Assyrian attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Isaiah 20, which speaks of an attack by Sargin, king of Assyria, on Ashdod, a city of the Philistines.
Isaiah 36-38, which speak of the attack on Hezekiah, king of Judah, by Sennacherib, king of Assyria.
Jeremiah 50, which speaks (in the past tense) of the attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Hosea 10, which speaks of the Assyrian attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Micah 5, which speaks of an attack by Assyria on Judah, answered by a counter attack by Judah on Assyria. This has unquestionably not ever happened.
Psalm 83, which names Assyria among a large confederacy of attackers against Judah, including Assyria. There was no attack by such a confederacy mentioned, even once, in any of the historical records in the Bible. So this also has to be future.

I went through all this exercise to conclusively prove that the general overrunning of the entire area that you are alleging never happened at all.

There is zero record in the scriptures of any attack on Judah by any Assyrian king before Sennacherib. Not even one. Sennacjherib attacked because Hezekiah had repudiated the ill advised covenant between Ahaz and Tiglath-Pileser. And that is the ONLY Assyrian attack on Judah mentioned anywhere in the historical scriptures.

The gross errors that have filled your arguments here are a simple and obvious example of the error of just lookng at the scriptures in an overall approximate way, without even bothering to study them "line by line." For if you had done that, you would have known that the scriptures simply do not say what you are claiming they say.
 
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ebedmelech

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The map shows the actual locations of the cities named. And the path is drawn through them in the exact order in which Isaiah 10:28-32 mentions them, plainly showing that they do indeed describe a path. And the words "that day" in verse 32 plainly shows that the Holy Spirit's intention was to show the time order in which these cities would be reached.
You have not proved it is the path Assyria took Biblewriter, and you can't because the passage doesn't call it "a path". Therefore it's supposition.
You are simply refusing to admit what I have already pointed out, that this was said of an attack upon a different nation. This was said about an attack by Assyria on ISRAEL, not JUDAH. When the subject is ISRAEL, the term "the whole land" does not apply to Philistia, Babylon or Judah. It only means ISRAEL.
No. What I'm refusing to do is project into the future what is clearly past. Furthermore, if you bother to read, Assyria went and assaulted Jerusalem first. Now once again, even if you don't, perhaps those who may be following this thread...and go read 2 Kings 15-17 and 2nd Chronicles 28 & 29.
2 Chronicles 28:19-21
19 For the Lord humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very unfaithful to the Lord.
20 So Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria came against him and afflicted him instead of strengthening him.
21 Although Ahaz took a portion out of the house of the Lord and out of the palace of the king and of the princes, and gave it to the king of Assyria, it did not help him.

So AHaz is under oppression from Assyria for the rest of the time he is king, and Judah is miserable because God is judging by Assyria!

Now...we know the King of Assyria put Ahaz "under his thumb" and did as he pleased because after Ahaz dies Hezekiah becomes King and rebels as He brings the people back to God. That is in 2 Kings 18:7:
7 And the Lord was with him; wherever he went he prospered. And he rebelled against the king of Assyria and did not serve him.
Up until this point all of Judah was serving Assyria, until Hezekiah becomes king. So once again you MUST allow the scriptures to tell you what is going on. If Judah is not under the control of Assyria why is Hezekiah rebelling Biblewriter? The fact is we are not given the details of how this occurred but Assyria is RULING THE WHOLE LAND, just as is said in 2 Kings 17:5. Stop ignoring passages that make the point Isaiah 10 is fulfilled as God uses Assyria to judge the "WHOLE LAND" just as is said!!!

There are two errors in your conclusion here. One is that the only way to take a fortified city is to lay siege to it. You cannot take ten cities in three days by laying siege to them. That takes time. A second one is that the Hebrew word translated all in 2 Kings 18:13 is "kol." this word means "all" in a general sense, like we often use the word all. But it does not necessarily mean absolutely all. In Exekiel 36:10, it is repeated to make the meaning absolutely all. The scriptures themselves say that after that was said, Jerusalem had not been conquered, and Sennacherib was laying seige to Lachish, and them moved on to Libnah. So we see that there were at least three fortified cities that had not been taken at the time this was said. The scriptures plainly show that this word "all" did not mean "absolutely all."
Who says they are "days" but you Biblewriter? You can't prove that...it is pure assumption. What we know is the WHOLE LAND is under Assyria. Contrary to what you said ALL DOES MEAN ALL. I've proved that by filling in gaps you either didn't read or don't think about because in your mind the bible has to quote "word for word" fulfillment but God provides us with evidence to show Isaiah 10 is fulfilled by Assyria.

2 Kings 15 speaks of Assyria's attack by Assyria on Menahem, King of ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
2 Kings 16 speaks of an attack on Judah by REZIN, KING OF SYRIA, not by ASSYRIA.
2 Kings 17 speaks of an attack by Assyria on Hoshea, king of ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
2 kings 18:9-11 speaks of an attack by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, against ISRAEL, not JUDAH, in the fourth to the sixth years of Hezekiah.
2 Kings 18:13-37 and all of 2 Kings 19 speaks of an attack by Sennacherib on Hezekiah, king of Judah in the fourteenth year of Hezekiah. So there is zero possibility that the Assyrians came to Jerusalem from Samaria. For the Assyrian attack on Hezekiah was by a different Assyrian king, five years after the end of the attack on Samaria.

And as I observed earlier, 2 Kings 18:17 very clearly says that when the Assyrians actually came to Jerusalem, they came from Lachish, which is south of Jerusalem, not north of it, as are ALL the cities mentioned in Isaiah 10:28-32.

2 Chronicles 28 does not speak of an attack by Assyria at all. It speaks of an ill advised covenant between Ahaz, king of Judah and Tiglath-Pileser, king of Assyria. But when the Assyrians came, they only distressed Ahaz, and did not help him.
2 Chronicles 29 speaks of an attack on Hezekiah, king of Judah, by Sennacherib, king of Assyria.
2 Chronicles 30 and 31 say nothing about any attacks by anyone.
and finally, 2 Chronicles 32 speaks of Hezekiah,s preparations for the attack that had been previously recorded in chapter 29.

The only other places where attacks by Assyria are mentioned in all of the Bible are:[
One more time...2 Chronicles 28:19-21...Assyria went against Jerusalem

1 Chronicles 5, which speaks of the Assyrian attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Isaiah 20, which speaks of an attack by Sargin, king of Assyria, on Ashdod, a city of the Philistines.
Isaiah 36-38, which speak of the attack on Hezekiah, king of Judah, by Sennacherib, king of Assyria.
Jeremiah 50, which speaks (in the past tense) of the attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Hosea 10, which speaks of the Assyrian attack on ISRAEL, not JUDAH.
Micah 5, which speaks of an attack by Assyria on Judah, answered by a counter attack by Judah on Assyria. This has unquestionably not ever happened.
Psalm 83, which names Assyria among a large confederacy of attackers against Judah, including Assyria. There was no attack by such a confederacy mentioned, even once, in any of the historical records in the Bible. So this also has to be future.

I went through all this exercise to conclusively prove that the general overrunning of the entire area that you are alleging never happened at all.

There is zero record in the scriptures of any attack on Judah by any Assyrian king before Sennacherib. Not even one. Sennacjherib attacked because Hezekiah had repudiated the ill advised covenant between Ahaz and Tiglath-Pileser. And that is the ONLY Assyrian attack on Judah mentioned anywhere in the historical scriptures.

The gross errors that have filled your arguments here are a simple and obvious example of the error of just lookng at the scriptures in an overall approximate way, without even bothering to study them "line by line." For if you had done that, you would have known that the scriptures simply do not say what you are claiming they say.
I think I proved you're wrong. You have the GROSS ERRORS because you don't read and understand! God simply doesn't provide the details of 2 Chronicles 28:19-21...but Assyria put Ahaz down right there and he later died.

Also Isaiah 7 makes it very clear Assyria assaulted Ahaz...try Isaiah 7:10-17...God is talking to Ahaz! God says to him at 17:
17 The Lord will bring on you, on your people, and on your father’s house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria.”
This again shows that Assyria ruled over Judah under Ahaz until he died and Hezekiah rebelled. This is why you take ALL the accounts of this period in the scriptures and put them together Biblewriter! Just as Isaiah 7 and 2 Kings fills in some details of what God did through Assyria! They could not even worship because of Assyria. 2 Kings 16:17, 18:
17 Then King Ahaz cut off the borders of the stands, and removed the laver from them; he also took down the sea from the bronze oxen which were under it and put it on a pavement of stone.
18 The covered way for the sabbath which they had built in the house, and the outer entry of the king, he removed from the house of the Lord because of the king of Assyria.


He then tells Ahaz again at 20:
20 In that day the Lord will shave with a razor, hired from regions beyond the Euphrates (that is, with the king of Assyria), the head and the hair of the legs; and it will also remove the beard.

God was talking to Ahaz directly in those verses. Judah was brought fully under Assyria's control as well as the "WHOLE LAND" until Hezekiah rebels...and your case is closed! :thumbsup:
 
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Interplanner

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I suppose there is also a reason to think that Galilee of the Gentiles is a misnomer, but the apostles still used it to show that the Gospel was going to the nations by how they used this Isaiah passage.

I thought BW was the watchdog about staying on topic.
 
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ebedmelech

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I suppose there is also a reason to think that Galilee of the Gentiles is a misnomer, but the apostles still used it to show that the Gospel was going to the nations by how they used this Isaiah passage.

I thought BW was the watchdog about staying on topic.
There is relevancy Inter, because his remnant conclusion is based on a false premise in saying Isaiah 10 is not fulfilled. I challenge him on that, and I think I make the case it is.

Paul quotes Isaiah 10:10:22 ONLY as prophetic In Romans 9:27. Bibewriter thinks Isaiah 10 is not fulfilled.
 
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Biblewriter

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You have not proved it is the path Assyria took Biblewriter, and you can't because the passage doesn't call it "a path". Therefore it's supposition.

No. What I'm refusing to do is project into the future what is clearly past. Furthermore, if you bother to read, Assyria went and assaulted Jerusalem first. Now once again, even if you don't, perhaps those who may be following this thread...and go read 2 Kings 15-17 and 2nd Chronicles 28 & 29.
2 Chronicles 28:19-21
19 For the Lord humbled Judah because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had brought about a lack of restraint in Judah and was very unfaithful to the Lord.
20 So Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria came against him and afflicted him instead of strengthening him.
21 Although Ahaz took a portion out of the house of the Lord and out of the palace of the king and of the princes, and gave it to the king of Assyria, it did not help him.

So AHaz is under oppression from Assyria for the rest of the time he is king, and Judah is miserable because God is judging by Assyria!

Now...we know the King of Assyria put Ahaz "under his thumb" and did as he pleased because after Ahaz dies Hezekiah becomes King and rebels as He brings the people back to God. That is in 2 Kings 18:7:
7 And the Lord was with him; wherever he went he prospered. And he rebelled against the king of Assyria and did not serve him.
Up until this point all of Judah was serving Assyria, until Hezekiah becomes king. So once again you MUST allow the scriptures to tell you what is going on. If Judah is not under the control of Assyria why is Hezekiah rebelling Biblewriter? The fact is we are not given the details of how this occurred but Assyria is RULING THE WHOLE LAND, just as is said in 2 Kings 17:5. Stop ignoring passages that make the point Isaiah 10 is fulfilled as God uses Assyria to judge the "WHOLE LAND" just as is said!!!


Who says they are "days" but you Biblewriter? You can't prove that...it is pure assumption. What we know is the WHOLE LAND is under Assyria. Contrary to what you said ALL DOES MEAN ALL. I've proved that by filling in gaps you either didn't read or don't think about because in your mind the bible has to quote "word for word" fulfillment but God provides us with evidence to show Isaiah 10 is fulfilled by Assyria. You are entirely correct that Assyria


One more time...2 Chronicles 28:19-21...Assyria went against Jerusalem


I think I proved you're wrong. You have the GROSS ERRORS because you don't read and understand! God simply doesn't provide the details of 2 Chronicles 28:19-21...but Assyria put Ahaz down right there and he later died.

Also Isaiah 7 makes it very clear Assyria assaulted Ahaz...try Isaiah 7:10-17...God is talking to Ahaz! God says to him at 17:
17 The Lord will bring on you, on your people, and on your father’s house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria.”
This again shows that Assyria ruled over Judah under Ahaz until he died and Hezekiah rebelled. This is why you take ALL the accounts of this period in the scriptures and put them together Biblewriter! Just as Isaiah 7 and 2 Kings fills in some details of what God did through Assyria! They could not even worship because of Assyria. 2 Kings 16:17, 18:
17 Then King Ahaz cut off the borders of the stands, and removed the laver from them; he also took down the sea from the bronze oxen which were under it and put it on a pavement of stone.
18 The covered way for the sabbath which they had built in the house, and the outer entry of the king, he removed from the house of the Lord because of the king of Assyria.


He then tells Ahaz again at 20:
20 In that day the Lord will shave with a razor, hired from regions beyond the Euphrates (that is, with the king of Assyria), the head and the hair of the legs; and it will also remove the beard.

God was talking to Ahaz directly in those verses. Judah was brought fully under Assyria's control as well as the "WHOLE LAND" until Hezekiah rebels...and your case is closed! :thumbsup:


I have offered detailed proof that everything you have said was flat wrong, except for the new allegations you have included here.


Your translation says that 2 Chronicles 28:19-21 says that Assyria "came against" Ahaz, not Jerusalem. But if you read what the parallel account in 2 Kings says, you will find that in saying that "the King of Assyria put Ahaz 'under his thumb,'" you have completely reversed what the scriptures actually say. Ahaz voluntarily put himself under the thumb of Tiglath-Pileser it was not even Tiglath-Pileser's idea. It was proposed by Ahaz. Ahaz sent a gift to Tiglath-Pileser. Tiglath-Pileser did not come and take booty. And Tiglath-Pileser did not even enter the kingdom of Judea. There is not even a part of a word of the text that indicates that the Assyrians even entered Judea at that time. Instead, Ahaz met Tiglateh-Pliezer in Damascus. The inspired account says:

"So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria, saying, 'I am your servant and your son. Come up and save me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who rise up against me.' And Ahaz took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD, and in the treasuries of the king's house, and sent it as a present to the king of Assyria. So the king of Assyria heeded him; for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus and took it, carried its people captive to Kir, and killed Rezin. Now King Ahaz went to Damascus to meet Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria, and saw an altar that was at Damascus; and King Ahaz sent to Urijah the priest the design of the altar and its pattern, according to all its workmanship." (2 Kings 16:7-10)

But I knew you would not yield to scripture, for you have in the past repeatedly demonstrated that you will never yield to any amount of proof. You know you are right, so anything that disagrees with you must perforce be wrong.

So so long, enjoy your Kool-Aid. Over and out.
 
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Biblewriter

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I thought BW was the watchdog about staying on topic.

On this one, I have to agree with Ebedmelech. In this thread, the discussion was "on topic."
 
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Biblewriter

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I find it interesting that Ebedmelech still thinks he made his case about Isaiah 10, even after, without a single exception, every allegation he made about the Assyrian was demonstrated to be contrary to scripture.
 
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ebedmelech

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I find it interesting that Ebedmelech still thinks he made his case about Isaiah 10, even after, without a single exception, every allegation he made about the Assyrian was demonstrated to be contrary to scripture.
I don't think I made my case...I know I did. You will know too...eventually.
 
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