1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Operation Gomorrah

Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by mindlight, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. mindlight

    mindlight I too am a Nazareen

    Messages:
    6,301
    Likes Received:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Christian
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gomorrah

    In 1943 in the space of 3 days as many people were killed in Hamburg Germany as in the blitz in London over the war. 1.2 m were made homeless and some 37000 wounded.

    In many ways the devastation caused was worse than the dropping of the atomic bombs.

    Was this raid and raids of its sort justifiable and were they effective at weakening the German war effort.
     
  2. ramdas goochta

    ramdas goochta nomaashkaar!

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Seeker
    germans they bomb first. the effort is hurting when many cities and the railroads are bombed. Ram say yes and yes.
     
  3. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant

    Try this link for a good article on the military action.

    The article says there were about 45,000 deaths attributed to the raids on Hamburg.


    Link:
    Allied Aerial Destruction of Hamburg During World War II

    *

    *
     
  4. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    A warcrime is a warcrime, regardless of who commits it and who it's committed against.
     
  5. football5680

    football5680 Newbie

    Messages:
    2,502
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Yes it was justifiable. If you don't want to go to war then don't start the war. Whatever happens after that is their own fault. They didn't spare civilians so there is no reason to spare their people.
     
  6. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    That's just about the most immoral thing I've ever read.....
    So.....basically...you'd be totally ok with Iraqis performing suicide missions in America, because: "Hey, you guys started a war with their country - no reason to spare your people"?

    Deliberately and needlessly targeting innocent civilians just for the spite of it is the act of a coward, it is a warcrime, and those committing such acts, deserves a short drop and a sudden stop. Regardless of the nationality of perpetrator and victims.

    By your logic, Germany would have been justified in bombing London to smithereens, because the UK and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
    I happen to believe that the terror bombing of British civilians was a disgusting crime against humanity.
     
  7. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    Would Pakistan be justified in nuking Indian cities, because you've attacked them in the past?
    Or is that something completely different, all of a sudden?0
     
  8. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant


    Are you a pacifist?

    Are you familiar with Catholic Just War doctrine?


    *

    *
     
  9. football5680

    football5680 Newbie

    Messages:
    2,502
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Yes, they would have been justified because it is war. It isn't a nice thing based on morals. The entire goal is to kill.

    We should avoid war at all costs but once you are engaged the goal should be ending the war as quickly as possible.

    Plus WW2 was a completely different type of war. It was a total war where all your countries resources go into fighting the war because the stakes are too high. Iraq wasn't a total war and we were only fighting the country of Iraq for like a week. After that we were fighting the small terrorist organizations within. That's why it took 8 years. WW2 was the biggest war in history and it only took a little over 5 years.
     
  10. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant
    Shipyards in Hamburg were building battleships for the German Navy and also building submarines. As far as I know, these shipyards produced all the submarines that Germany had during the war. This is the military reason for targeting Hamburg.


    *
    *
     
  11. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant

    You seem to be overlooking the possibility that the bombing of Hamburg and similar events were a response to the German firing of V-1's and V-2's at Britain. This is usually called the London Blitz, although the rockets actually fell all over England. (I'm not sure about Scotland.)

    The military effectiveness of aerial bombing can be debated.
    Aerial bombing is certainly not the same as what Nazi troops did in occupied areas. Bombs do not discriminate based on religion. The Nazis picked out victims for the Holocaust, a process known as Selection.


    *

    *
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2013
  12. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    The Blitz is, AFAIK, the bombing of British cities during the Battle of Britain. Equally repulsive as the terror bombings of Dresden and Hamburg.

    So, attempting to eradicate an ENTIRE population, is better than picking and choosing in a population? How does that logic work?
    Secondly, the Nazis cared very little about religion, so long as the religion could be used to their advantage, of course. What they DID care about, was ethnicity. Apparently, Jews, Slavs, etc, were "Untermenschen", subhuman, not worth the same as Germans.
    The same view that those who defend the terror bombings of Dresden and Hamburg, necessarily have regarding Germans. There is no difference.
    [/quote]

    I'm not saying that Hamburg had no legitimate military targets. And I'm not asking for modern-day precision bombing with 1940s technology. But even then, they knew that if you want to take out the enemy's factories/shipyards, you don't need to reduce the entire city to ruins to do this.

    Hamburg, and Dresden, were warcrimes plain and simple. And those who defend them as "Hah! Good on them!" are on the same moral level as nazi apologists.
     
  13. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant
    Reply:

    I'm not saying that Hamburg had no legitimate military targets. And I'm not asking for modern-day precision bombing with 1940s technology. But even then, they knew that if you want to take out the enemy's factories/shipyards, you don't need to reduce the entire city to ruins to do this.

    Hamburg, and Dresden, were warcrimes plain and simple. And those who defend them as "Hah! Good on them!" are on the same moral level as nazi apologists.[/quote]


    What does AFAIK mean?
    The Blitz started on September 7, 1940 and it came after the Battle of Britain.

    The bombing of Hamburg did not eradicate the entire population and no one thought that it would. I was just pointing out that when the Allies conducted the bombing, Britain had been under bombardment by German rockets, the Blitz, for almost three years. There is no doubt which came first.

    I have very mixed feelings about the bombing of Hamburg. It is true that it brought home to the German people that the war wasn't going well and it reduced the popularity of the Nazi regime. Marshall Goring, the head of the Luftwaffe, was publicly ridiculed when he toured Hamburg after the bombing--despite the obvious disincentives to ridicule public officials in a totalitarian state. In that sense, the bombing did achieve the political objective of beginning to undermine the Nazi regime.

    The taunting of Marshall Goring is at the end of the article I provided in post #3.

    *

    *
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  14. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    "As far as I know" :)

    I didn't say that there was doubt. What I did say, was that there is no moral difference between the intentional murder of British civilians, Jews, Slavs, and Germans. The German atrocities were just that: Abominable atrocities which its perpetrators were rightfully prosecuted for, post-war.
    What I'm saying, is that the Allied atrocities against Germans were ALSO just that: Abominable atrocities. The difference is, that NO ONE got prosecuted for that, and in that, Germans were treated as Untermenschen, in the same way that the Nazis treated Jews and Slavs.

    There is no reason to have mixed feelings about this, any more than there is any reason to have mixed feelings about the German atrocities. Unless, of course, one sees Germans as somehow inferior and thinks it's ok to mass-murder them.

    So, you'd be ok with Al Qaida setting off several suitcase nukes in New York City, levelling the place and killing millions, to "undermine the American regime"?
    Or is that somehow different, now that it's nice Americans and not bloodthirsty Huns we're talking about?
     
  15. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    4,539
    Likes Received:
    81
    Faith:
    Protestant
    I am not aware of any Nazis who were prosecuted at Nuremberg for firing V-1's and V-2's at Britain. That would be the equivalent of the bombing of Hamburg.

    There's no need to drag Al-Qaida into this. Al-Qaida has no legitimate objective.

    *

    *
     
  16. ChristOurCaptain

    ChristOurCaptain Augsburgian Catholic

    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Lutheran
    No, equivalent to the bombing of Hamburg and Dresden, would be the German massacres of entire villages in some parts of the occupied territories. And those WERE, rightfully, present in the charges.

    According to you or I. But their objectives are not relevant. Their methods, are. Now, answer the question.
     
  17. Touma

    Touma In on the cover up

    Messages:
    7,102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian-Seeker
    Justified in a sense, as it brought the war to a close quicker. That might have kept later death tolls down.

    But most war is unjustified, IMO.
     
  18. apache1

    apache1 Junior Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    No lame guilt trip about what I'm writing. Germany had attacked without provocation the bulk of Europe and slaughtered Jews and other innocents by the millions, and the Japanese "Pearl Habored" us and incurred brutal atrocities against the Chinese, Philipinos, Koreans, etc., and in my opinion they got what they both deserved. Yes, too many innocents died on all sides, but if we (and the British, and yes, although they were evil brutes in their own right, the Russians, as well as other allies) hadn't stood up to those sob's, it would not have gone too well for us, either. General Patton had the right idea, blow the hell out of them.
     
  19. football5680

    football5680 Newbie

    Messages:
    2,502
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Catholic
    True. The only country Germany even declared war on was the US and they did that without provocation. They thought they would defeat Great Britian before the US could mobilize and they wanted to get on good terms with the Japanese, so that they could help them against the USSR. If Britian was defeated then the US wouldn't enter the war in Europe because regardless of whether Hitler or Stalin won they wouldn't like the outcome. But Britian survived and the US was able to mobilize.
     
  20. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Staff Trainer Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

    Messages:
    75,535
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    MOD HAT

    This thread is closed for review and a partial clean up was already done. It got off topic and there was some flaming.

    Edit - very hesitantly reopening....keep it civil!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013