Ukraine is a bountiful research opportunity. (Lab Rats)

[RocksInMyHead]

My point is why are we meddling in Ukraine with its mixed demographics?

What do demographics have to do with a country's right to self-determination?

Could it be over NATO membership?

That almost certainly contributed, but again, Russia does not get to dictate other countries' policies or invade them when they do something that Russia doesn't like. And I'll point out that nearly 80% of Georgians supported joining NATO in early 2008, so you can't even make the argument that there wasn't popular support for the idea. I firmly believe that NATO's lack of response to the invasion of Georgia is why Putin though he could do the same to Ukraine.

Parroting propaganda? How do you know it's not true because all the Western media does not mention it or tell you so?

For example, I showed you a map of Russia's Black Sea ports after you claimed that Russia took Crimea in order to secure its trade in the Black Sea. I also provided concrete reasons why Ukraine rejected the Istanbul peace agreement that had nothing to do with Western pressure when you posted an article that claimed the US and UK were responsible for the collapse of that deal. These are factual things - places on a map, terms demanded by Russia, the Bucha massacre.

Funny you should tell me about confirmation bias don't everyone do it on these forums in their arguments? Are you sure you're not guilty yourself?

Anyone can fall prey to confirmation bias. If you feel that I am not adequately supporting my claims or that I'm wrong about something, you should absolutely call me out on it. But be prepared to provide evidence for why I'm wrong.

 

[BCP1928]

I think this is also good for Russia and China to learn about NATO's weapon systems, especially the captured ones.

"American officials speaking with the Washington Postdescribed the ongoing war in Ukraine as providing Washington with ample information about Russian war-fighting strategies. The report comes as Kiev struggles to field enough forces to prevent Moscow from capturing more territory."
"According to a soldier who escaped the Avdiivka and spoke with the Associated Press, the Ukrainians were outnumbered five to one."
"Additionally, the AP explained that the manpower shortage is precluding military operations. The outlet reports, “[Ukrainian] Commanders say they don’t have enough soldiers to launch offensives, and barely enough to hold positions amid intensifying Russian assaults.”

We underestimated Russia's ability and at the cost of tens of thousands of ethnic Ukrainian lives.

"Washington and its NATO partners have viewed Ukraine as a proxy war to weaken Russia. While the Joe Biden administration has touted this policy as “for Ukraine,” it has severely harmed the country."

I see Washington but I keep hearing the name of Boris Johnson is what kept this going. Also, other news sources said that Russia wanted Ukraine to pledge neutrality.

"In the early months of the war, Kiev nearly reached an agreement with Moscow to end the conflict and Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion lines. However, Washington and London pressured the Ukrainian leadership to abandon the diplomatic path."

Russia invaded Ukraine because they want to own Ukraine's 15% of the world's grain supply. Should we let them have it or not?

 

[Laodicean60]

For example, I showed you a map of Russia's Black Sea ports after you claimed that Russia took Crimea in order to secure its trade in the Black Sea.

Yes, and I forgot to add they have had a naval base in Crimea and what would have happened if Ukraine became NATO in 2014, would they have lost that base?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes, and I forgot to add they have had a naval base in Crimea and what would have happened if Ukraine became NATO in 2014, would they have lost that base?

In 1959 the US had a Naval base in Cuba when Castro took over and then Cuba aligned with the Soviets. Whatever happened to that base?

 

[Gene2memE]

Ukraine's listening to the West hurt the country. Because of Ukraine's demographics, do you think Russia wants all of Ukraine especially the western part, where you have ethnic Ukrainians? That would be a political nightmare for Putin.

It seems that the Russian plan was to take Kiev, force a capitulation and regime change. Then to arrive at a 'peace deal' with a friendly government that involved annexation of large swathes of Ukrainian territory, including at a minimum all of Donestk and Luhansk, along with sections of Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv and Kherson.

We'll see now that Russia is winning

Disagree with your assessment. Russia is taking ground, but that's not the same as winning. Russian losses are HEAVY.

Professional military observers are putting Russian manpower loss rates at 2.5 to 1 over the winter offensive, and those are the estimates on the LOW side. Equipment losses are even worse, at around 4 or 5 to 1. Again, those are on the low side.

For all the posturing and handwringing over the lack of support for Ukraine from the West, Russia's situation is just as precarious. They're reactivating tanks that have been sitting in storage yards since the 1970s, and are having to resort of rebarelling field artillery pieces from WW2.

If he settles for the East/southern Russian-speaking portions of Ukraine then we'll know that Putin was protecting his own country's interest.

B-S.

Putin wasn't protecting his country's interest. Ukraine was pivoting out of Russia's orbit (towards the West) and Putin acted because having a western-aligned, democratic neighbour with a similar ethnographic make-up is fundamentally dangerous to his regime. Plus, he has delusions of a neo-Imperialist Russian state as his 'legacy'.

Lie detector depends on the propaganda you listen to. Neutrality was never given a chance because all NATO wanted was to weaken Russia

Neutrality was given a chance - Russia violated it by annexing Crimea and then starting an insurrection in the Donbas and Luhansk region.

Without active Russian support (as in rotating more than 40,000 combat troops and intelligence agents through those regions between 2014 and 2022) the 'independence movements' in those regions amount to little more than ugly protest marches and some minor arson/sabotage.

Russia was only okay with neutrality when it the Ukranian government was clearly bent in Russia's favour.

but it caused solidarity among all the other countries namely the BRICS who don't want Western liberal democracy.

But Ukraine DID want a Western liberal democracy. As seen in the 2014, Russia has no place in deciding the foreign relations of a sovereign nation, even if that nation is it's neighbour.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Yes, and I forgot to add they have had a naval base in Crimea and what would have happened if Ukraine became NATO in 2014, would they have lost that base?

Maybe, maybe not. It was never discussed that I'm aware of. As pointed out, the US naval base in Cuba didn't go away after Russian-backed communists took control of the country.

 

[eleos1954]

I think this is also good for Russia and China to learn about NATO's weapon systems, especially the captured ones.

"American officials speaking with the Washington Postdescribed the ongoing war in Ukraine as providing Washington with ample information about Russian war-fighting strategies. The report comes as Kiev struggles to field enough forces to prevent Moscow from capturing more territory."
"According to a soldier who escaped the Avdiivka and spoke with the Associated Press, the Ukrainians were outnumbered five to one."
"Additionally, the AP explained that the manpower shortage is precluding military operations. The outlet reports, “[Ukrainian] Commanders say they don’t have enough soldiers to launch offensives, and barely enough to hold positions amid intensifying Russian assaults.”

We underestimated Russia's ability and at the cost of tens of thousands of ethnic Ukrainian lives.

"Washington and its NATO partners have viewed Ukraine as a proxy war to weaken Russia. While the Joe Biden administration has touted this policy as “for Ukraine,” it has severely harmed the country."

I see Washington but I keep hearing the name of Boris Johnson is what kept this going. Also, other news sources said that Russia wanted Ukraine to pledge neutrality.

"In the early months of the war, Kiev nearly reached an agreement with Moscow to end the conflict and Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion lines. However, Washington and London pressured the Ukrainian leadership to abandon the diplomatic path."

Yep the warmongers interfered ... they wanted war and still do.

 

[Laodicean60]

Maybe, maybe not. It was never discussed that I'm aware of. As pointed out, the US naval base in Cuba didn't go away after Russian-backed communists took control of the country.

Cuba was its own country and maybe Russia allowed it. Then you have to look at how the crisis came about, it was Russia's response to our action. With NATO's threats toward Russia for the last twenty years I don't think we would have been so kind.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Cuba was its own country and maybe Russia allowed it.

Ukraine is also its own country, and it's certainly possible that NATO would have allowed Russia to maintain a base in Crimea. We'll never know the answer though, thanks to Russia's aggression.

Then you have to look at how the crisis came about, it was Russia's response to our action. With NATO's threats toward Russia for the last twenty years I don't think we would have been so kind.

Which threats would those be?

 

[Laodicean60]

Ukraine is also its own country, and it's certainly possible that NATO would have allowed Russia to maintain a base in Crimea.

See that's the problem we don't and Putin didn't know, so he took Crimea.

 

[Laodicean60]

Which threats would those be?

Everything I've been trying to tell you.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

See that's the problem we don't and Putin didn't know, so he took Crimea.

I understand that, but understanding why someone did something doesn't make it right or justify it. I also understand why Hitler was able to take power, why he invaded Poland, and why World War II started. Doesn't mean that the world would have been better off giving him what he wanted in order to avert his invasion (they'd already tried that with the Sudetenland anyways - obviously, it didn't work).

The fact of the matter is that Russia didn't even attempt any diplomatic solutions to the situation. They assumed a worst-case scenario for the future and acted in response to that. That's not how modern diplomacy is conducted, and allowing them to conduct "diplomacy" in that matter doesn't end well for anyone.

Everything I've been trying to tell you.

Again, working with a sovereign nation that has expressed an interest in joining your alliance is not a threat. All of your arguments seem to hinge on the idea that Ukraine should be considered a Russian puppet-state rather than an independent country, which is simply untrue and is disrespectful of the Ukrainian people.

 

[Laodicean60]

Again, working with a sovereign nation that has expressed an interest in joining your alliance is not a threat. All of your arguments seem to hinge on the idea that Ukraine should be considered a Russian puppet-state rather than an independent country, which is simply untrue and is disrespectful of the Ukrainian people.

For peace on the globe a neutral state. We should not work with any nation on the spread of NATO if it threatens another country and next will be China.

I also understand why Hitler was able to take power, why he invaded Poland, and why World War II started.

A little extreme here, Putin's reasons are different from what Hitler believed. Comparing Putin (or anyone else) to Hitler, propaganda has a way of doing that to people. If Putin was Hitler he wouldn't have stopped after taking Crimea he would have moved west to take Ukraine by force.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

For peace on the globe a neutral state. We should not work with any nation on the spread of NATO if it threatens another country and next will be China.

NATO is a defensive alliance. The only reason why someone might see it as a threat is if they intended to attack one of the countries belonging to the alliance. Russia's delusions about it are just that - delusions.

A little extreme here, Putin's reasons are different from what Hitler believed. Comparing Putin (or anyone else) to Hitler, propaganda has a way of doing that to people.

I'm discussing methodology, not ideology.

ETA: To clarify, I'm not saying that Putin is like Hitler. I'm saying that Putin is employing the same "diplomatic" tactics that Hitler did - tactics that resulted in World War II.

If Putin was Hitler he wouldn't have stopped after taking Crimea he would have moved west to take Ukraine by force.

You do recall what happened in Ukraine in 2022, right? When Putin moved west to take the country by force?

 

[Hans Blaster]

For peace on the globe a neutral state. We should not work with any nation on the spread of NATO if it threatens another country and next will be China.

NATO isn't anywhere near China. NATO exists to counter the threat of Russian aggression in Europe. Putin makes the justification for NATO clear.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

NATO isn't anywhere near China. NATO exists to counter the threat of Russian aggression in Europe. Putin makes the justification for NATO clear.

Correct - one of the stipulations of NATO is that member states must be in Europe (aside from the US). Considering that no European country borders China, China is unlikely to have any meaningful relations with NATO - unless, of course, they intend to attack one of the members.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Correct - one of the stipulations of NATO is that member states must be in Europe (aside from the US). Considering that no European country borders China, China is unlikely to have any meaningful relations with NATO - unless, of course, they intend to attack one of the members.

There is one nation centered in Europe that has a border with China -- Russia. (But Russia in NATO isn't going to happen.)

 

[Laodicean60]

NATO is a defensive alliance.

Depends on your point of view.

You do recall what happened in Ukraine in 2022, right? When Putin moved west to take the country by force?

Have you thought of the reason why Putin waited so long, diplomatic reasons perhaps? I remember the talk of neutrality way before 2022 'Russian Aggression".

Correct - one of the stipulations of NATO is that member states must be in Europe (aside from the US). Considering that no European country borders China, China is unlikely to have any meaningful relations with NATO - unless, of course, they intend to attack one of the members.

You better look again. Or is it any country that joins the EU like Turkey that is allowed in.

 

[Laodicean60]

There is one nation centered in Europe that has a border with China -- Russia.

Not yet. Do you remember India was invited to join NATO? Their leaders are smart and want to maintain peace and stability.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

For peace on the globe a neutral state. We should not work with any nation on the spread of NATO if it threatens another country and next will be China.

Not sure why we would let any country’s security be dictated to them by what best suits the interests of Russia or China.

A little extreme here, Putin's reasons are different from what Hitler believed. Comparing Putin (or anyone else) to Hitler, propaganda has a way of doing that to people. If Putin was Hitler he wouldn't have stopped after taking Crimea he would have moved west to take Ukraine by force.

Oh you mean like forcefully taking 4 more regions from Ukraine like they just did?

Your propaganda isn’t working here, Vlad.