Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

[Salvadore]

I am not reading a whole lot of anger in the OP. I don't agree with everything the author said, but it was a thoughtful letter and it was well-researched. For example, the statement that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content included a link to a source. Perhaps the source is incorrect, but the author of the letter did research the matter. Your rebuttal contained no evidence.

I will try to provide 3 sources of evidence-based information. Be well !

 

[Salvadore]

I am not reading a whole lot of anger in the OP. I don't agree with everything the author said, but it was a thoughtful letter and it was well-researched. For example, the statement that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content included a link to a source. Perhaps the source is incorrect, but the author of the letter did research the matter. Your rebuttal contained no evidence.

Romans 1: 26-27
Corinthians 6:9-11

 

[Salvadore]

I am not reading a whole lot of anger in the OP. I don't agree with everything the author said, but it was a thoughtful letter and it was well-researched. For example, the statement that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content included a link to a source. Perhaps the source is incorrect, but the author of the letter did research the matter. Your rebuttal contained no evidence.

1 Timothy 1:10

 

[Salvadore]

1 Rimothy 1:10

Oops. Timothy.

 

[Salvadore]

Just out of curiosity, what would falling away from the church, God and Biblical teachings look like? Where would the line be drawn, or would there be one?

 

[Archivist]

1 Timothy 1:10

Yes, I am aware of all this. I've read the Bible. The OP said that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content and back that claim with evidence. You responded by saying "I hope you think carefully before you believe 50% of pastors are looking at inappropriate content," but you had no evidence to back your claim.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, I am aware of all this. I've read the Bible. The OP said that 50% of pastors look at inappropriate content and back that claim with evidence. You responded by saying "I hope you think carefully before you believe 50% of pastors are looking at inappropriate content," but you had no evidence to back your claim.

Since virtually all men view inappropriate content, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/inappropriate contentography, 50% may be low.

 

[Salvadore]

Since virtually all men view inappropriate content, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/inappropriate contentography, 50% may be low.

I hope you don't. The report was from a 2016 article , I believe. If three good sources report it, I might belive it. I think it is best to ask the minister or pastor.

 

[Archivist]

Since virtually all men view inappropriate content, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/inappropriate contentography, 50% may be low.

I fear that you may be right.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

No. Stone hearts, hearts of stone - total lack of empathy or sympathy for others.

Example: A recent post asked what she should do, having met a man and leading him to Christ, and attending church with him. He is gay, and married.

The responses were cold, dismissive, condescending:
"Just tell him to get a divorce. He was never really married in the first place."

Easy peasy. Now, imagine your heterosexual spouse coming home, and saying, "I love you very much, but I joined Jehovah's Witness, and because I have been married before, and living an adulterous life, a sinful lifestyle, clearly stated by Jesus, I am filing for divorce to repent of my sin. JW require for me to repent. I'm moving out by end of the week, and they recommended so that ai don't backslide, to cut off all communication unless we are discussing the divorce. You can either buy my half of the house or we could put it up for sale....Please don't cry...

Easy peasy, right? You are breaking their heart. Most likely, while you hear in media of Jehovah's Witness claiming remarried people are trying to redefine marriage or destroy marriage and family, you see Jehovah's Witness trying to destroy the marriage of someone you are deeply in love with, and fought hard for the right to remarry in case one divorces.
Would JW sound like something Christ would do, or does you, as the stunned spouse hearing the news, beg the other to stay, and see JW as an enemy to yoyr marriage and relationship, and trying to take away the one person you love most in the world?

How would you respond, deciding to go to church and seek God, to be told you must get divorced from the person you love, that your marriage isn't a real marriage because it is your second, that your relationship to this wonderful person you found is the same murder, child sexual assault or rape?

How would you respond if you told them this was your second wife/husband, they told you "we don't believe in that. Just get divorced" with a shoulder shrug, with either no understanding of how serious a thing they just asked of you, or understanding but not caring?

That's a stone heart.

Claiming that AIDS is God's punishment shows as much empathy to the patient dying of HIV, their friends and their family, as it would be to go tova child's ward or cancer ward, and claim the patient is being punished, of protesting the funeral like Westboro Baptist.

Would any of those examples lead you to a Christ that makes people that callous?

Very true statements.
Incidentally, the verse Romans 1: 27 says that the homosexual men "received in their body what was due"; it never says it was a punishment. In my humble opinion, this indicates that it was a mere matter of cause-and-effect, with people receiving STDs because of their unhealthy sexual activity, rather than divine judgement. My belief is that God warned people not to engage in homosexuality because of these results, rather than these results being some sort of divine punishment.

As the Creator of the world, God know how everything works, including our bodies and minds. When he forbids something, it's not some arbitrary law, but rather an attempt to prevent us from being harmed.

That said, yeah, I've often thought that a gay person who comes to Christ probably has to face some really hard times. As somebody who's never found love and always desired to have a soulmate, I can't imagine how hard it must be; just because the sexual aspects of the relationship are wrong doesn't mean that the love isn't real. Hopefully God will reward those who turn away form the gay lifestyle with great rewards in Heaven , because that has got to hurt like hell.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

Alistair, does "the Bible forbid" women pastors?

Well, it says women shouldn't speak out in church, but I'm not entirely certain on the whole matter myself; my research has been focused on other areas. I am aware it's rather controversial, and I have seen a few verses which seemed to lean in that direction, but as it hasn't pertained to me personally I haven't really given it much research, so perhaps I have just taken the words of others as fact without proper understanding.
I have listened to several female pastors, and they all have been very good, so I can't fault their faith. I do know a husband and wife pastoral team who's church I used to attend; I probably should ask them about the matter

 

[Amittai]

Well, it says women shouldn't speak out in church, but I'm not entirely certain on the whole matter myself ... perhaps I have just taken the words of others as fact without proper understanding

1. The text was "The" women which is a strongly specific pointer in Greek. There had been prior discussion and these were whom it was about. Roman couples didn't speak. It was the done thing to be offhand at home. Roman society was very competitive at every level. Thus some longer standing Christian husbands weren't sharing insights with some more newly converted wives. Thus the wives seemed to need the general gathering turned into a question-and-answer session (perhaps baring some personal issues). Paul's idea in this passage was that if husbands pulled their weight at home, maybe with the help of a few of their most trusted friends, the general gathering could proceed as it had been conceived of.
2. The thing about hair is not to go the way of the intensely loud hair of - say - the wife of a top university official recently in post. Both some men and some women have and had a habit of ensuring they come over very intense to those around them. That's what the thing about hair is about. Hair can be nice without the intensity.
3. "Not many teachers" means not many appointed to speak authoritatively from the teaching of Jesus and the OT. Ezekiel says verbatim "they shall not teach each other" yet paradoxically that is what we can do in the sense of assiduously interpreting what we are given by the bigger ones in churches, in Holy Spirit (Another Comforter) strength because we can know Jesus in our hearts. Sadly many of us - including me in my previous incarnations - have been impressed by ignorant personalities that seized the microphone and camera to build a following.
4. There was more - shall probably add later.

 

[Salvadore]

Assuming 50 % or more ministers are viewing inappropriate content, there could be a lot of them facing hell fire. That should scare the life out of them.

 

[bèlla]

People walk away for different reasons. The majority fall in these areas:

Negative experiences
Lack of connection
Theological differences
Disbelief
Disinterest

 

[Salvadore]

I agree with you. The specifics change but I think you captured the reasons in a nutshell. Sometimes, something happens that compels people to return to their faith and a church building. The church is made up of sinners, some of whom have placed their trust in Christ. I think it is okay to worship under the big blue sky until you find a comfortable place to worship. You just have to remember to hate the sin but love the sinner. I think it is okay to contact the elders if people are snubbing you or talking about you. That is clearly wrong. God does not like haughtiness.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

To follow the advice of the woman OP represents is to destroy any sense Christianity has of itself. It is to remove completely the distinction between non-Christian and Christian. You aren't leaving because the Church has failed you, you're leaving Christianity period.

 

[Torah Keeper]

We struggle with our LGBTQ brothers and sisters not being allowed to serve

Deuteronomy 23:17

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The main problem that many have difficulty with churches is that they expect the church to be a showcase of perfect Christians, and are disillusioned when their church does not measure up to their own ideals. One thing I learned as a school teacher was to 'deobjectivise my own ideals". In other words, when working with and fellowshiping with groups of people with different ideals, not to force my ideal mold onto them, but accept the people as they are.

The trouble with some church leaders and pastors, as well as some "holier than thou" church members is that they think that everyone should have the same ideals they have. So they brow-beat their people to measure up so that the church they are leading or attending is the showcase that they want it to be.

The truth is, that there is no such thing as a showcase church full of perfect Christians. Those who think they are more perfect than others are merely being self-righteous, something that God hates. The fact is that church is a hospital for spiritually sick and recovering sinners, and the sooner some self-righteous church leaders accept that the better.

So, what can a church leadership do with a church full of imperfect, struggling, sinful people? Reject them and find a church with "better" people in it? Of course, pastoring a church with imperfect, struggling, sinful people in it is a real challenge, and it takes a special calling from God to do it. Perhaps many who enter the pastoral ministry do it for reasons other than having a true calling of God.

Is the Gospel, according to Paul, the power of God leading to salvation for those who choose to believe it? That's what he said to the Corinthian church, which he saw was full of imperfect, struggling, sinful people. Did Paul reject the church and decide to move on to somewhere like Ephesus where the believers were of a higher standard? It appears not. He preached the Gospel to them, and gave them the teaching that the Holy Spirit gave him to teach. Did everyone in the church accept his teaching? We don't really know. We do know from 2 Corinthians that many did get the message and significant improvements were made there.

Did you know that Isaiah preached and prophesied for over sixty years and did not get any significant results, and that Israel continued in its idolatry and ended up losing their promised land. Isaiah himself was killed along with many of the other prophets of God who lost their lives. At one stage he became very disheartened and disillusioned and asked God why he is bothering to preach when the people would not and were not going to listen to him. The Lord told him that by faithfully preaching the word, then those who refused to listen would not have any excuse at the Judgment. In fact, while his ministry should have been a ministry of life to those who believed his preaching, it was a ministry of death to those who remained obstinate.

It is the same in our churches. The pastor's preaching is a ministry of life to those who are genuinely seeking God, but to those who refuse to be led of the Spirit and continue in the works of the flesh, it is a ministry of death to them, and when they stand before Christ in the Judgment they will have no excuse.

The pastor does not know who in his church are going to believe his preaching and continue to grow in grace and increasing holiness, and those who appear to be holy and righteous but are still continuing in the works of the flesh outside of the church environment. Witch-hunting is not the pastor or the elders' role. It is to preach and teach God's Word and to set an example of commitment and holiness to the members.

A hospital doctor is not going to refuse to treat sick patients because they are not getting well as fast as he wants them. He has to see people who he is treating ending up dead. Does that mean that he should quit the medical profession because patients remain chronically ill or die under his care? If all the people in his hospital got well right away, wouldn't he be out of a job?

What about a dairy farmer? What is he going to do if he has sick cows in his herd? Kill them, or get the vet in to treat them so they get well again?

What about the sick and imperfect people in the church? Does the army general have wounded soldiers shot because they cannot fight any longer? So, is it right for a church pastor or leader to "shoot" the wounded, imperfect, and spiritually sick people in his congregation by firing condemning Bible verses at them?

As a church elder, I would rather have a membership of men struggling with inappropriate contentography, and those with gay orientation, than a membership full of "holier than thou" self-righteous pelicans who think that their effluent doesn't stink! The Holy Spirit can work with sinful people who want to grow in grace. But He can't do much with self-righteous people who think they are more perfect than others.

 

[Salvadore]

Tha

Thank you for sharing. These are also the reasons I left the church. I see that people here are embodying some of the reasons right on this thread...

So, did you leave the Body of Christ? Or did you stop going to a church building?

 

[Salvadore]

The parable of the good samaritan, is all about seeing the need and meeting it.
It does not limit the showing of love, or the failure in the persons life who has needs, it just serves, because a heart of love knows love gives and does not ask for more.

How broken is the world when LGBQT+ becomes a thing, rather than a wonder how intimacy and sexuality can get confused, and sexuality becomes the definer of who someone is and not love sharing from one individual to another. I love people for who they are, not their orientation.

I wanted to make a comment on Christian hypocrisy. If you aren't going out of your way to be a total jerk, are at least as tolerable as most people, I have no problem.

While the OP's problem within her church was that people were publicly holy, and privately sinning, my problem is with Christians who harshly judge others without love, but when called on their own shortcomings, say they are not perfect, just forgiven.

When Jesus was invited to dinner by Simon, a Pharisee, a woman who had lived a sinful life came into the house and washed Christ's feet with her tears dried them with her hair, and anointed his head with expensive oils.
When Simon saw this, he judged them both: the woman was a sinner, and Jesus was a false prophet because he didn't know what kind of nasty woman she was, and allowed her to approach.

Jesus asks Simon who loves his master more, the one forgiven a great debt or a small one. Simon answers, "the one forgiven a large large debt."
Christ responds, "You have judged rightly."

Simon had judged himself as loving God less than the woman who looked upon with contempt, pointing Simon didn't offer to wash his feet, while she had washed them with her tears and dried them with her hair.

And growing up, I judged her as well, believing she was crying tears of sorrow, begging Christ to forgive her, but I now believe it was tears of joy, the oils gifts of adoration and gratitude, knowing that, unlike the Pharisees who probably didn't acknowledge her probably told her she was unworthy of God's love, or anyone else's, that she was loved, as she was, and needed only to accept that love.

That love, the little light of mine, is what changes people.

Simon showed contempt. Christ showed mercy.
Simon saw a sinner, and himself as holy.
Christ pointed out who demonstrated more love by their actions, humbling Simon.
Simon saw a sinner, and a false prophet.
Christ saw a woman, of child of God.
He doesn't demand she repent first.

Now, before everyone gets bent out of shape, one can point out the shortcoming of another Christian in love*, not in condemnation, not to feel morally superior, not to humiliate. But, if you have a plank in your eye, why are you concerned about the speck in another?

Countless times, a Christian will claim that Jesus is ok judging others as long as you do not commit the same sin you condemn. If that were true, Jesus would have said, "Why are you concerned with tge speck in your brother's eye when you have a speck in your own.
speck=speck

The comparison of a plank to a speck is that the person quick to judge another's faults often does so to exalt themselves, and ignores the major sin, most commonly, lack of love.

I, as a Christian, try my best to treat others in love. I help when I can, give without asking anything in return, and love my neighbor as myself. I don't like it when a stranger who doesn't know me makes judgements about me, so I refrain from judging people in general, and those I do I know well, have a good rapport, and say it in love to help them. I have judged people in my past, but when you get to know them and their lives, you may understand better why the person drinking so much lost her sister to suicide and grandmother to cancer in the past 6 months, the guy you love to walk by and say, "smoking causes cancer" is under a lot of stress when his parents told him they didn't know if they could send him back to school next year. The girl that is so mean to everyone was bullied a lot in high school, so she learned to protect herself by building ip walls and throwing the first punch.

Driving for Lyft, I picked up a rider who was promoting a group that worked with the community, was told it was inter-denomjnational,and J said, "That's cool you are working together,and from comparative religions I have read, Islam, Buddhism and Christianity have loving your neighbor as yourself at the core"

She quickly added, "Yes, but it isn't loving if I don't point out another's sin. If someone is alcoholic, it wouldn't be loving to approve of it."

I was considering joining this group until she said that.

I'm thinking: Loving one's neighbor in the Bay might look like bringing food to the growing tent cities, or volunteer work, visiting elderly people, working at a food shelf or battered women's shelter or just helping someone with their groceries they are struggling to carry.

She is thinking: i need to tell people what sins they have.

Anyone can condemn a person. That doesn't take love. People refee to the president as an idiot vulgar and divisive out of contempt, not love, to make him a better man. And while correcting can be loving, let's put it in a RL context.

You meet a girl. It's love at first site. During dinner, she says that you do this kind of annoying habit of talking while eating. She just wanted to be honest and truthful, and loving. After a while, you realize the only way she can show love is to point out your faults, like you were 5 minutes late, that your shirt and pants don't match, that you interrupt when she's talking, that you say, "um" a lot...

Then she's confused why you no longer want to see her, because she was being so loving.
When you mention how tired you got of being criticized so often, and that you never pointed out her shortcomings, she gets incensed you think she has any, and telling you your faults was meant to help yiu, out of love.
You point out a few of hers, and she says, "Well, I'm not perfect!"
"Neither am I" you say.
"But if I don't point out your faults, it's like I'm approving of them, but you point our mine, i feel judged, and prefer to focus on you."

That is what I see so often. Loving is always associated with pointing out the sin of others, rarely, "I was hungry and you fed me; I was naked and you clothed me;" not someone asking for your shirt and offering your coat as well. Almost exclusively pointing out sins of others.

NonChristians and GLBTQ cringe when we hear it: "Love the sinner...hate the sin."

What we hear is:
I see you as a sinner, unlike me.
Your sins are big. Mine are too small to worry about.
I don't see you as human, but as a sin. And I certainly don't see you as a Child of God.
I came "just as I am, without one plea"
i expect you to repent, change, before coming to Jesus.
If I see you and you are gay, I will assume to be an authority on both the bible, and all research studies of homosexuals than the person is themselves I don't understand that you've cried yourself to sleep night after night, pleading for God to change you, that you have gone through conversion therapy without orientation changing, that you have not only read the 2 verses of Leviticus, but have watched videos by theologians. read books on the subject, and have come to understand that most of the Clobber Passages are misunderstood and misused when condemning homosexuality. I fact, I will act confused that you know the bible so well, better than I do, afmit that I've only read those two verses, don't know who was speaking, to whom, and why, that Leviticus has laws about being kosher, or the cultural belief that men have tiny fully formed babies that are [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to conceive, this, masturbating or male/make sex was wasting lives for a traveling tribe trying to survive, which is the reason the doesn't mention women with women.

And yet, despite my lack of research, knowledge or praying about it, I claim "it's really clear", because I made up my mind. Why dig deeper?

I had someone say to me, "Love you, just hate your sin." Confused, I said,"Love you, too. And hate you sin, too, er whatever..." She said, "My* sin?? What sin do I have??" I said, "I'm not sure, but we all have them. And I hate sin, too I thought you were talking about my sin in general."

She then explains that if she simply told me she loved me, I might mistakenly think that she approves of my sin. But by using a tag line, it doesn't feel like love. It feels conditional at best.

Do you say to your significant other: Love you, just hate your faults?
If someone said that to me, I'm hearing,"I see your faults when I look at you, and love the person I want you to become, but not who you are.

Everyone knows what love is and isn't. People unable to display the love that is gentle, kind, humble, merciful, will insist that those claiming they are unloving just don't recognize it, like when a chikd punishes his child. Were the other a child, I could see it, but not when you are both adults, able to make your own choices, and have no authority over others.

Do you tuck your kids in and say I love you or only I love you, but don't like when you misbehave?
If you said it after they misbehaved on occasion, I could ses it.

If that is the only way you could say I love you - with a tag line, would your kids feel loved?

Despite 1 Corinthians 13 definition of Love is gentle; love in kind..., the argument will quickly turn to the loving by disciplining, saying people enjoy the warm fuzzy love, but the disciplinary love
people shy away from because it is so hard.

Being gentle and kind to unkind people, the "bless your enemies," returning curses with blessing and praying for your enemies, is much harder than pointing out everything wrong with your enemy. Forgiving someone is much harder than condemning someone with scripture.

As an example, guys on my dorm floor often talked of their hatred of gays, never able to articulate why.
Many religious leaders would say gays were an abomination, hated by God.
The dorm guys used a derogatory word to dehumanize them.
Religious people used abominations, reprobate, predators.
Dorm guys would joke about lining them all up and gunning them down.
Religious people would say if Americans were following God's word, gays would be executed, and that God commands it, so not even our choice.

It sounded the same, only one group hid behind the bible to justify their hatred.

In fact, when talking about the "softball game" (Bring Your Own Bat -Bashing), some who rarely went to church, or read the bible, said he "heard a preacher say the bible commands them to be killed. IEven God is on our side...I mean, bruh, if even God hates you..."

So, my problem is the hypocrisy of being forgiven, then condemning others, beibg saved through grace, then acting morally superior like you earned it, seeing love only as pointing out a person's faults, calling them sinners, demanding them to change to be accepted by God, but unable to show fruits of the spirit, or claim to follow Jesus, who told us to love our neighbor as ourselves
and to love God, and either don't love, thus don't follow Jesus, downplay love for sin pointing, or redefine love because no one believes the protest at the funeral with Bible quotes feels loving, but cruel.