Open letter to the church from millennial pastor - this is why we are leaving

TheDag

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But how many Christian denominations are there, all of which cane from a single church? Those divisions certainly predate millennials.
Yes but there have always been disagreements in those churches without them splitting as well. The disagreements I'm talking about are when a person says well if somebody is a catholic you know they have never read the bible yet I know they used to go to a church that every single time I visited i heard unbiblical preaching. They didn't leave because of the teaching however. They left because they needed somewhere close to home.
Now I know a number of catholics and they most certainly have read the bible. So his claim was wrong. Should I as the letter suggests leave the church as a result? What purpose does that serve?
 
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Beanieboy

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Like "stone hearts" = don't obey, don't hear , don't live ? ignore the Shepherd or just can't hear Him ?
No. Stone hearts, hearts of stone - total lack of empathy or sympathy for others.

Example: A recent post asked what she should do, having met a man and leading him to Christ, and attending church with him. He is gay, and married.

The responses were cold, dismissive, condescending:
"Just tell him to get a divorce. He was never really married in the first place."

Easy peasy. Now, imagine your heterosexual spouse coming home, and saying, "I love you very much, but I joined Jehovah's Witness, and because I have been married before, and living an adulterous life, a sinful lifestyle, clearly stated by Jesus, I am filing for divorce to repent of my sin. JW require for me to repent. I'm moving out by end of the week, and they recommended so that ai don't backslide, to cut off all communication unless we are discussing the divorce. You can either buy my half of the house or we could put it up for sale....Please don't cry...

Easy peasy, right? You are breaking their heart. Most likely, while you hear in media of Jehovah's Witness claiming remarried people are trying to redefine marriage or destroy marriage and family, you see Jehovah's Witness trying to destroy the marriage of someone you are deeply in love with, and fought hard for the right to remarry in case one divorces.
Would JW sound like something Christ would do, or does you, as the stunned spouse hearing the news, beg the other to stay, and see JW as an enemy to yoyr marriage and relationship, and trying to take away the one person you love most in the world?

How would you respond, deciding to go to church and seek God, to be told you must get divorced from the person you love, that your marriage isn't a real marriage because it is your second, that your relationship to this wonderful person you found is the same murder, child sexual assault or rape?

How would you respond if you told them this was your second wife/husband, they told you "we don't believe in that. Just get divorced" with a shoulder shrug, with either no understanding of how serious a thing they just asked of you, or understanding but not caring?

That's a stone heart.

Claiming that AIDS is God's punishment shows as much empathy to the patient dying of HIV, their friends and their family, as it would be to go tova child's ward or cancer ward, and claim the patient is being punished, of protesting the funeral like Westboro Baptist.

Would any of those examples lead you to a Christ that makes people that callous?
 
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dms1972

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There is a lot of misunderstanding of what hypocrisy is and I know some younger people think it is sometimes less hypocritical to live by their feelings, but that is mistaken. Also public personas and the like are normal part of life, it makes life more bearable if we use a little politeness and courtesy in our social interactions, its not hypocrisy we learn to be better by acting as if we were that. On the other hand I have been with people who decended into a lived out of their feeling being alot of the time and they are hard to be around for any length of time. Popular psychology has played a big part in cultivating this feeling centredness.
 
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Beanieboy

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Yes but there have always been disagreements in those churches without them splitting as well. The disagreements I'm talking about are when a person says well if somebody is a catholic you know they have never read the bible yet I know they used to go to a church that every single time I visited i heard unbiblical preaching. They didn't leave because of the teaching however. They left because they needed somewhere close to home.
Now I know a number of catholics and they most certainly have read the bible. So his claim was wrong. Should I as the letter suggests leave the church as a result? What purpose does that serve?
I think her point was more along the lines of:
We love each other in church, and we agree on everything.
Outside the church, people are seen as evil, other faiths evil, GLBTQ evil...

And what has been happening with younger generations is that they have Muslim classmates, learn about their religion, see them leave to pray, and realize they are not evil, don't have a violent religion, and take it quite seriously.They have met GLBTQ people rather than older generations, who speak of a gay agenda in detail while not associating with anyone GLBT. By contrast, they know GLBT people from classes or work, they befriend them, or just want to go to their gay brother's wedding, but told she can't.

It's easy to say no to a vague GLBTQ community you have never met, but quite different if it is an invite to a friend or relative's wedding who is GLBT.

But her biggest problem was keeping their love insular, only within other church members, with a condition of being in total agreements with their beliefs.

As Christ said, Don't even the heathens do thst?
 
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Beanieboy

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There is a lot of misunderstanding of what hypocrisy is and I know some younger people think it is sometimes less hypocritical to live by their feelings, that is wrong. Also public personas and the like are normal part of life, it makes life more bearable if we use a little politeness and courtesy in our social interactions, its not hypocrisy. On the other hand I have been with people who decended into a lived out of their feeling being alot of the time and they are hard to be around for any length of time.
It's being your authentic self: being on the outside who you are on the inside.

I can't speak for others, but as I stared before, it is hypocrisy to claim to follow Jesus who commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, but work to keep discrimination legal against your neighbor, convince governments in Uganda to execute your neighbor using a book of the Bible you do not keep, and twisting the verse, not loving to tell lies and slander your neighbor that you command to obey the commandments, when you are breaking them yourself, to be morr concerned about the sins of others than you are your own, to lack love and not care, to study the bible to use it as a weapon as Satan did to Jesus, rather than seek guidance.

It's the 2x4 in so many Christian's eye that is the real issue, and like tge Pharisees, usually on the power end, judging others, are the most offended when judged themselves, used to thinking themselves holy they cannot humble themselves not even before God, and will say they know they are right, so why pray yo God about it.

It's bigger than "fine! I'm going home and taking my toys with me!" It's a real problem, an Us vs Them that build walls, not bridges, and harms the misled follower as much as turning off potential people coming to God
 
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Salvadore

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Church should be a safe place for all sinners to meet and encourage each other. We all sin. We need help to live according to God's word. We should look to God's word to find the best way to live to honor Him. Sometimes we are made uncomfortable by what we learn. It is up to each of us to search for scriptures that support the choices we make. I would leave a church that did not preach the true gospel. I would leave a church that added or took away from the Bible. Life is a struggle but God loves us and wants what is best for us and our families. We can be kind to each other as we seek the truth.
 
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Beanieboy

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I recently saw a survey of millennials, and I high percentage, maybe 40%, was they didn't like the way Christians, or their church, were treating GLBTQ people.

Now, settle down, I didn't say the didn't like that homosexuality was called a sin by some churches. (Understand also that 50% of theologians conclude that the bible doesn't deem it a sin, either.

They didn't like the way Christians, or their church mistreated GLBTQ people.

When someone Christian asks me, "What mistreatment???," I ask then, "What are you pretending not to know?" I'm unclear if they are playing ignorant and lying to me, or lying to themselves.

I'm a Boomer, 56 years old. I can tell you my generation endured/still endures a number of lies and slander, such as the myth that the average gay person lives to be 43, that we a child molesters, that we are haters of God, etc., all to prevent anti-discrimination laws, showed judgement and callousness in the rise of AIDS rather than compassion or empathy, including trying to block prevention education, having a controversy of whether GLBTQ people should even be let in the door, with membership out of the question, Don't Ask Don't Tell creating more discharges than before it was created, one's loving relationship being lumped in with violent victim-based crimes like murder, and rape, and probably the most devastating, believing the lie that God hated me, and wanted me executed.

But I'm not a millennial. They probably have GLBTQ relatives, friends and acquaintances, so probably either hear how they are treated or witness it firsthand.

Because many of the older generations may not know openly GLBTQ people, they see the community as a faceless boogey man, no nothing about us, so believe all the slander fed to them, are told GLBTQ are attacking the church, so take an offensive stance, thinking it is a defensive move. And believe that their "tough love" that is often experienced the same way as just non-religious folks who hate gays and believe they are justified.

With the internet savvy generation, it is quite easy to look at youtube videos, like Unclobbering the bible, of websites, that examine the verses used to condemn, but show the context, the translation, concluding that it is not a sin, but referring to something else. This is important, because in Jesus' day, people were dependent on the Pharisees, not having access to Scripture some not being literate.

This is one of my favorite videos: Pastor talks to people who don't believe in God.
I think it very important to watch how the pastor interacts with them.
There is no negating, with "yeah, but..."
No judgement.
No superiority.
No quoting Scripture like it is a court case with people who aren't well versed

She listens to what they are saying.
She shows understanding and empathy.
She humbles herself before them.
She speaks to them with kindness, gentleness, and mercy.

The love of Christ radiates from her. It's how I imagine Christ reached out to others.

But I was unable to find the specific on examples of mistreatment the millenials are referring to, and prefer not to speak for them, but let them speak for themselves.

That reason to me seems to be a kind of poetic justice. No one looks back at Anita Bryant, fighting to keep gay discrimination legal, claiming that anti-discrimination bills harm children (Save The Children), as being on the right side of the argument. Regardless of whether on agrees or disagrees on the issue, discrimination isn't seen as just, nor loving one's neighbor as themselves.

It just takes time to see it for what it is, and those judging with harshness are looked back and judged with harshness themselves.
 
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tturt

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Just another example (#1) that we value our opinions as more important than following what Scripture says Heb 10:25, Eph 4:11, 12-14, PSA 122:1, Matt 18:20, etc Also, several verses in Pro about wise counselors. Though this could apply to outside the church but surely those who apply the Bible to their lives should be able to offer wise counsel and receive wise counsel.

Also loved church as a kid (#1) then why take that away from today's kids?

Plus the points (#1) shows the focus is on people instead of God. I assure you, we"re going to fall short. Letters to the churches in the Bible through now. But thanking the Lord He will help us all - a work in progress.
 
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Salvadore

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When I was in high school, a million years ago, gay people were laughed at, jokes made,etc. They were mistreated. I do not condone this kind of treatment. I think a couple gay kids committed suicide. This breaks my heart. I don't think being homosexual is a sin. I think sex outside of marriage is sin.
This is as far along as I have gotten in my journey to understanding. I don't want to judge anyone nor do I want to lead anyone down the wrong path. I try to be careful about what I condone or condemn because I am not a theologian. Personally, I find the Bible to be confusing in some areas. There is the law and there is the spirit of the law. God knows what is in our hearts. Some things are clear to me. But, the grey areas are difficult for me. Then history of the times must be taken into consideration. It is a good way for God to keep us interested in learning!
 
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lismore

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When I was in high school, a million years ago, gay people were laughed at, jokes made,etc. They were mistreated.

Believers shouldn't be mistreating or bullying gay people. It's because we care about them that we tell them the truth of the gospel. But we tell them our sins that the Lord Jesus had forgiven us from too. 'All have sinned'. We are all in need of God's mercy.

Those who really hate gay people are those who do not tell them the truth, that they must repent, change their minds and turn to Christ, thereby condemning them to a lost eternity. God Bless :)
 
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Beanieboy

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Believers shouldn't be mistreating or bullying gay people. It's because we care about them that we tell them the truth of the gospel. But we tell them our sins that the Lord Jesus had forgiven us from too. 'All have sinned'. We are all in need of God's mercy.

Those who really hate gay people are those who do not tell them the truth, that they must repent, change their minds and turn to Christ, thereby condemning them to a lost eternity. God Bless :)
What do you understand to be the Truth of the Gospel, and how does it contrast with what others profess that truth to be?

I find that my understanding changes over time, and it reminds me of the times Jesus says, "You have read...but I tell you..."

Today, the Holy Spirit was showing me the person honored in stories and parables were the people condemned at that time.
Examples: Simon was a Pharisee, a person respected for his knowledge of Scripture, thought of as holy, followed by the people. He not only judged the woman washing Christ's feet with her tears, but Christ himself for allowing her to approach him. And Christ shows Simon how she displayed much more love than Simon did by having Simon judge himself.
The the HS continued to the Pharisee and the tax collector, showing the Pharisee, because of his pride in self righteousness that blinded him to his sin by focusing on another he condemned, made his prayers empty, while the tax collector, despised by the community, was honored because he humbled himself before God.
Then he went on to the priest and the levite, who were probably following the laws of cleanliness, but put that law over the need to help the beaten man, and instead, glorifies the Samaritan, a people most saw below sinners.
The point was, God knows my heart, and despite the people who were looked at with contempt, and there have always been some group, God will honor the prayers of those people who seek him in humility and sincerity, so not to worry about how the religious may view me.

So, I am interested in hearing what your understanding is, since different people with different views all claim to speak the Truth.

And what do you say to the person who does not believe that it is a sin after careful examination of the Scripture and prayer?

The site doesn't allow for promotion of homosexuality, which I'm unclear how that is defined, and that is not even my question.

My question is, what is your reaction to the Christian who understands that Jesus died for our sins, but doesn't agree that the verses used to condemn gay relationships are valid because the are usually mistranslated, do not take context into consideration, etc.

Michael Vines is an example

I really like this guy's videos. He is heterosexual, believes homosexuality a sin, but i enjoy him because of how he struggles with the issues, and explains very well why he may decide to attend a gay friend's wedding while not really endorsing gay marriage, or how he can hold his view while still extending love. He examines the church's views, and asks why it focuses on homosexuality but not on premarital sex, inappropriate contentography, people who divorce and remarry for reasons other than infidelity (are the unrepentant sinners) and the lack of inconsistency. I believe the struggle comes from actually interacting with another person, versus a faceless community one has never spoken to, as well as a respectful and careful look at Scripture, looking to see what it says, rather than making it say what you want it to say, really diving into Scripture rather than looking at it superficially and claim one's shallow interpretation are the word of God.
 
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Chrystal-J

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Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

I don't think there will be many people who find the path toward salvation because they keep twisting scripture and making excuses for their behavior.
 
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hedrick

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My question is, what is your reaction to the Christian who understands that Jesus died for our sins, but doesn't agree that the verses used to condemn gay relationships are valid because the are usually mistranslated, do not take context into consideration, etc.
Your second video raises the question: how do we deal with disagreement? Christian tradition says there's one answer to every question, God rejects everyone who doesn't accept it, and so the right thing to do is condemn people I disagree with. This means that Christians are our own worst enemies. We can be friends with non-Christians, but not with Christians we disagree with.

But if the premise is right, that God will damn people who are wrong, maybe this is the right outcome.

Jesus, of course, was pretty harsh with Pharisees. But they were attacking him, and their approach ended up abusing others. But conservatives see the situation with gays and people who accept them as similar.

It's hard to believe that God really wants Christians to fight each other, but the Church as a whole hasn't developed an alternative. People on the liberal end of issues find it easier to be accepting. Paul, for example, typically advocated for tolerance. On food sacrificed to idols and the sabbath, he took the liberal position but advocated that we accept those who felt that had to obey rules he didn't.

But suppose he had thought that eating food sacrificed to idols was idolatry. Would he have advocated accepting those who ate it as also honoring the Lord? The main moral dispute where he was on the conservative side was 1 Cor 5. Of course that was adultery, which even liberal Christians consider unacceptable. But it doesn't seem like there was anyone suggesting that what the guy did was OK. It was just how to handle him. So Paul never really had to grapple with handling disagreement when he was on the conservative side.

C S Lewis, in Screwtape letters (and I'm going from 50 year old memories here) had his devil suggest that one of the best attacks against Christians was to get them to fight against each other, rather than accepting disagreements as opportunities to show charity to each other. I can't help thinking that this is right. But I don't think there's much support in Christian tradition for accepting disagreements on things that matter.

I think any different approach has to be based on an understanding that God is a bit broader in who he is willing to accept. That ought to be possible for people who accept that justification is by faith alone. But not very many people actually accept that. Most Protestants seem to accept that justification is by faith alone, as long as you don't have any unrepented mortal sin. But of course that's the position Luther was opposing...
 
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Beanieboy

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Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

I don't think there will be many people who find the path toward salvation because they keep twisting scripture and making excuses for their behavior.
Just looking at this forum, there are people who say you are saved by grace, some say that you are saved by choosing to do good works, some say that you are saved by keeping the commandments, and still others that say you are saved by grace, but must keep it through works or you will lose salvation. So, even within Christians, there is disagreement on a very fundamental part of the religion, making finding the path very complicated.

My belief is that Christ came to the world to show us how to love: to be kind to one another, to forgive others without end, to not seek revenge when someone acts against you but pray for them, to humble yourself before everyone, from celebrity to the homeless person, as if you were speaking to Christ himself, speak out against people in power who use it to oppress others, even religious leaders, although you will be hated, called a child of Satan, maybe even killed. Speak out against people who claim to speak the word of God when it is twisted scripture meant to harm like a weapon. But above all, in praying for love, the love of the HS flows through you, and the Kingdom of God is already within you, not something you must wait for death to see. Rather than a list of laws one must follow, trying to "thou shalt not", Christ tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves, how to love actively - helping those in need, comforting those who are mourning or have lost hope, giving more than asked, and asking nothing in return, behaving as literally on body, working together. Rather than worrying about a misstep, I believe God shows us that we have endless possibilities before us. He wants us to live in joy, not fear. He offers us freedom, not enslavement.

A quote from a priest in What the Bleep Do We Know:
When I was younger, I had lots of ideas about what God was. And now I realize I'm not conscious enough...
to truly understand what that concept means. That I am at one with the great being that made me and brought me here...and that formed the galaxies and the universes, et cetera--
How did that get taken out of religion?
It was not hard. Most of the problems that religion and various philosophical movements, down through the centuries
have produced...have been errors because that's where they're started -That God is a distinct separate being from us...to whom I must offer worship,
whom I must cultivate...humor, please and hope to attain a reward from at the very end of my life.
That is not what God is.
That is a blasphemy.

And the thing that has had me scratching my head since childhood is listening to so many Christians talk about their religion and relationship with God, Christ and the HS, like it will start in heaven, when they die, rather than focus on the gift of life given to them now, and the fruit of the spirit that grows from the Tree of Life planted in our hearts. But instead, there is this equivalent of "you're gonna get it when your Dad gets home." But we've been texting all day, and we good.

It puzzles me when Christians quote with glee that the path is narrow, most won't make it, but they of course will, while the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to find the one.

I don't understand when Christians, faithful to every word of the Bible, don't seek God for guidance in prayer, but only Scripture, and only their interpretation of it. I have always assumed God speaks to everyone, that quiet voice within us.

And I don't understand beliefs that man has a sinful nature. We were created in God's image, and also have a divine nature. A First Nation's story tells of a boy explaining to his father that within him there seems to be two wolves, one who wants to do good, and the other who wants to do evil. Who will win? His father replies, The one that you feed. And in acknowledging the two sides of us: a lower and higher self, a human and a divine self, we are empowered to overcome our human nature of revenge to forgive, selfishness for giving of self, for self-righteousness for humility.

I'm confused why Christians that portray a God that demands you kneel and tell him how great he is, can't understand how arrogant that makes God sound to nonbelievers. Rather than walking through town in Royal garments, telling people to kneel before him, Christ humbled himself before us, showed mercy, showed kindness, gave love rather than demanded it. And he gives us love first, that we may extend love to others first, Forgives us without deserving it, so that we will do the same to others.

And in loving our neighbor as ourselves, we love and honor God. I believe salvation is that simple, which Christ referred to as "becoming like a child."

But the reason the path becomes narrow is that they feed the wrong wolf. In believing themselves holy, which the dark wolf tells them, they condemn others. The dark wolf tells them that they are choosing to obey, congratulates them, and tells them they are better than those who they believe disobey. In fact, those who disobey are enemies of God, so if they go to hell, good riddance!
They look to Scripture but it only reflects their heart, and tell nonbelievers God hates them, maybe even commands them to execute them, and are pleasing their god, encourages them to lie if the end justifies the means, and as they push people away from God, distort what God is, trying to keep souls lost, they are definitely serving the god.

We just serve different gods.
 
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lismore

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Today, the Holy Spirit was showing me the person honored in stories and parables were the people condemned at that time.

Hello Beanie. I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick on that one.

Jesus said " I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32)

You're missing that important word at the end.

As for the video or teachers saying that men can have sexual relations with other men. It's not a matter of interpretation or re-interpretation. Anyone who says they've read the bible and come to the conclusion that men can have sexual relations with other men is either a false teacher or a fool. In either case I would advise you to avoid them.

God Bless :)
 
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NeedyFollower

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Just looking at this forum, there are people who say you are saved by grace, some say that you are saved by choosing to do good works, some say that you are saved by keeping the commandments, and still others that say you are saved by grace, but must keep it through works or you will lose salvation. So, even within Christians, there is disagreement on a very fundamental part of the religion, making finding the path very complicated.

My belief is that Christ came to the world to show us how to love: to be kind to one another, to forgive others without end, to not seek revenge when someone acts against you but pray for them, to humble yourself before everyone, from celebrity to the homeless person, as if you were speaking to Christ himself, speak out against people in power who use it to oppress others, even religious leaders, although you will be hated, called a child of Satan, maybe even killed. Speak out against people who claim to speak the word of God when it is twisted scripture meant to harm like a weapon. But above all, in praying for love, the love of the HS flows through you, and the Kingdom of God is already within you, not something you must wait for death to see. Rather than a list of laws one must follow, trying to "thou shalt not", Christ tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves, how to love actively - helping those in need, comforting those who are mourning or have lost hope, giving more than asked, and asking nothing in return, behaving as literally on body, working together. Rather than worrying about a misstep, I believe God shows us that we have endless possibilities before us. He wants us to live in joy, not fear. He offers us freedom, not enslavement.

A quote from a priest in What the Bleep Do We Know:


And the thing that has had me scratching my head since childhood is listening to so many Christians talk about their religion and relationship with God, Christ and the HS, like it will start in heaven, when they die, rather than focus on the gift of life given to them now, and the fruit of the spirit that grows from the Tree of Life planted in our hearts. But instead, there is this equivalent of "you're gonna get it when your Dad gets home." But we've been texting all day, and we good.

It puzzles me when Christians quote with glee that the path is narrow, most won't make it, but they of course will, while the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 to find the one.

I don't understand when Christians, faithful to every word of the Bible, don't seek God for guidance in prayer, but only Scripture, and only their interpretation of it. I have always assumed God speaks to everyone, that quiet voice within us.

And I don't understand beliefs that man has a sinful nature. We were created in God's image, and also have a divine nature. A First Nation's story tells of a boy explaining to his father that within him there seems to be two wolves, one who wants to do good, and the other who wants to do evil. Who will win? His father replies, The one that you feed. And in acknowledging the two sides of us: a lower and higher self, a human and a divine self, we are empowered to overcome our human nature of revenge to forgive, selfishness for giving of self, for self-righteousness for humility.

I'm confused why Christians that portray a God that demands you kneel and tell him how great he is, can't understand how arrogant that makes God sound to nonbelievers. Rather than walking through town in Royal garments, telling people to kneel before him, Christ humbled himself before us, showed mercy, showed kindness, gave love rather than demanded it. And he gives us love first, that we may extend love to others first, Forgives us without deserving it, so that we will do the same to others.

And in loving our neighbor as ourselves, we love and honor God. I believe salvation is that simple, which Christ referred to as "becoming like a child."

But the reason the path becomes narrow is that they feed the wrong wolf. In believing themselves holy, which the dark wolf tells them, they condemn others. The dark wolf tells them that they are choosing to obey, congratulates them, and tells them they are better than those who they believe disobey. In fact, those who disobey are enemies of God, so if they go to hell, good riddance!
They look to Scripture but it only reflects their heart, and tell nonbelievers God hates them, maybe even commands them to execute them, and are pleasing their god, encourages them to lie if the end justifies the means, and as they push people away from God, distort what God is, trying to keep souls lost, they are definitely serving the god.

We just serve different gods.

I would agree with you regarding premarital sex and divorce and remarriage in that marriage is about Jesus Christ , not about "my marriage ...my happiness , my fulfillment , etc. ..That is an idea promoted by movies , songs , TV and history of lost people . I think we have a misguided idea of love . We use the term heterosexual and homosexual . Sex has nothing to do with love . When we are born again from above , it is through the sacrificial love of God our Father . It is the same love as a parent to a child or a brother and sister . No sex there . Passion , desire , lust ...these are things which many mistake for love . Men can and must love one another but if we can not love without sex , then a parent cannot love their children . Does that make sense brother ? Before Jesus Christ , I was a womanizer ...it was considered ok because I was heterosexual . It was not and is not ok to turn people into objects of my desire ....even in a marriage situation . In the regeneration we will all be little children ...we will get our innocence back ...just like the angels who never fell . Pure love .
 
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TheDag

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It's bigger than "fine! I'm going home and taking my toys with me!" It's a real problem, an Us vs Them that build walls, not bridges, and harms the misled follower as much as turning off potential people coming to God
So your solution is to leave those people rather than demonstrate love and try and win their brother & sisters over? Doesn't sound real great to me.
In any case they are starting a new church where there will be disagreement like there is in all existing churches.
 
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TheDag

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showed judgement and callousness in the rise of AIDS rather than compassion or empathy,
So back in the 1980s when there was a christian conference and they took up a collection for victims of AIDS they were being callous were they? I know there are certainly those who are however to claim that is how all christians act like you are is the same action as what you are complaining about.

Because many of the older generations may not know openly GLBTQ people, they see the community as a faceless boogey man, no nothing about us, so believe all the slander fed to them, are told GLBTQ are attacking the church, so take an offensive stance, thinking it is a defensive move. And believe that their "tough love" that is often experienced the same way as just non-religious folks who hate gays and believe they are justified.
Having seen the way they treated gay christian groups who wanted to take part in gay pride marches. They even told them to go home and not join in! When they refused they were shoved down the back. Looking at the signs many had that day I saw hate. Stop pretending it doesn't exist. You can claim they idn't start it but when you look at the actions of people like Ghandi or Mandela their excuses don't fly.

With the internet savvy generation, it is quite easy to look at youtube videos, like Unclobbering the bible, of websites, that examine the verses used to condemn, but show the context, the translation, concluding that it is not a sin, but referring to something else. This is important, because in Jesus' day, people were dependent on the Pharisees, not having access to Scripture some not being literate.
Yep seen those. There are assumptions made which means they can not support their claims. They also ignore certain context such as Lot and his local knowledge. I am aware of the passage that says lack of hospitality was their sin. How was that lack shown though is the question they won't answer.

The love of Christ radiates from her. It's how I imagine Christ reached out to others.
I'll look at the video. You can imagine that is how Christ reached out to others. Lets look at some stories. He spat on the ground to make mud and put it on mans face.
He called a woman a dog.
He drew attention to a woman when she was trying to hide.
Said get behind me satan to one of the disciples.
None of those are gentle. Certainly Christ was gentle at times but lets not create a fairy tale version of Christ. It does a diservice.

As another poster said if you focus on people and what they do wrong then of course you will be disappointed. On a message board that created dialogue between pagans (religion) & christians one christian said they were going to walk away from the church because of behaviour of others. One of the pagans actually pointed out Christs actions is the example we should follow and of course imperfect people will do the wrong thing.
 
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Beanieboy

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So back in the 1980s when there was a christian conference and they took up a collection for victims of AIDS they were being callous were they? I know there are certainly those who are however to claim that is how all christians act like you are is the same action as what you are complaining about.

Can you site it?
Falwell, Robertson and others, as well ss many people, Christian and non, claimed it was God's Judgement, or they got what they deserved.
It was also the time when some churches banned glbt from their services, so I may have missed the collection plate thing.

Having seen the way they treated gay christian groups who wanted to take part in gay pride marches. They even told them to go home and not join in! When they refused they were shoved down the back. Looking at the signs many had that day I saw hate. Stop pretending it doesn't exist. You can claim they idn't start it but when you look at the actions of people like Ghandi or Mandela their excuses don't fly.

MCC and All God's Children formed after churches rejected gay people. It was well known and respected.
The protesters, yelling at people in the parade that they were going to hell, weren't doing it out of love anymore than Westboro is.

At one Pride, a handful of protesters, signs quoting Leviticus (seriously? Even theologians understand how misused this is), and implied gays should be killed. The Gay Men's Chorus, when they saw them, stopped their song, and began singing, "Jesus loves me, this I know.."
The protesters were livid, screaming,"No he doesn't."

Well, either the Bible, or the protester, is wrong.

Yep seen those. There are assumptions made which means they can not support their claims. They also ignore certain context such as Lot and his local knowledge. I am aware of the passage that says lack of hospitality was their sin. How was that lack shown though is the question they won't answer.

And your position is that despite what Ezekial says, because you want to believe, S and G was discovered because of homosexuality, not because the had plenty but did not care for the needy, or sexual immorality, such as gang rape, so much so, that had they gang raped Lot's daughters, they would have been spared?

Believe what want.

I'll look at the video. You can imagine that is how Christ reached out to others. Lets look at some stories. He spat on the ground to make mud and put it on mans face.
He called a woman a dog.
He drew attention to a woman when she was trying to hide.
Said get behind me satan to one of the disciples.
None of those are gentle. Certainly Christ was gentle at times but lets not create a fairy tale version of Christ. It does a diservice.

Yeah, I've read Enyart's misquoted verses lifted out of context.

When he called the woman a dog, he said the master does not take the bread from the children and give to the dogs. She replies that even the dogs get yhe crumbs, at which point he exalts her, saying that she had faith even when pushed away.

If you want to take from that that it is ok to call someone a dog as an insult to be like Jesus, then you answer for it at your own judgement.

And while the "tough love" is very popular among conservative Christians today, the kind of disciplining can often be done without love, and often is.

1 Corinthians description of, what are you calling it? Fairytale? has to be discounted, the lack of fruit of the spirit discounted... Or maybe, there is no love there, which is the log growing out of one's eye.

I asked you not to take my word for it, but take it to God. You said, "Why should I?" Free will. And you will answer for it.

As another poster said if you focus on people and what they do wrong then of course you will be disappointed. On a message board that created dialogue between pagans (religion) & christians one christian said they were going to walk away from the church because of behaviour of others. One of the pagans actually pointed out Christs actions is the example we should follow and of course imperfect people will do the wrong thing.

Then perhaps you could follow your own advice.
 
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