Of Course I Believe in Prosperity, so do you

[probinson]

And I do love the terms ‘hate’ and ‘hateful’, when I see these rather inane terms being thrown about it usually means that those who are using them have lost the ability to approach a discussion in a reasonable manner

What absolutely amazes me is that you honestly believe that all of the disparaging bile and empty fluff you've posted is somehow approaching this discussion "in a reasonable manner", when in reality, all you've really done is rant and rave.

You've long ago lost the ability to approach this discussion in a reasonable manner by your own standard.

 

[dkbwarrior]

You raised this spurious point within another topic and when I responded by saying that the Full Gospel message within mainland China had been discredited years ago by the wof movement which is something that you failed to address. I also made mention that an organisation that I am associated with has had to spend a copious amount of time addressing the serious concerns of many Chinese believers and hopefully we will see the mainland Chinese believers embracing the Full Gospel once they understand that the wof movement is an aberration of the Full Gospel movement, much the same as the latter-rain movement and the NARzies are.

I also raised how the wof/prosperity philosophy has wreaked havoc in south-west Africa where large portions of the church won’t even touch the Full Gospel as it has been so heavily tainted by the abuses that were perpetrated by various wof practitioners including many from the US – and undoubtedly the list can go on and on. Even here in Australia I have had to try and counter the concerns of both many cessationists and the unsaved where they have been able to observe the same type of abuses being performed here by these practitioners – and this has greatly undermined the work of the Full Gospel.
This problem has also caused a great amount of concern with many Full Gospel believers as well in that their confidence has been greatly shaken by the countless shameful actions of the many wof celebrities. It seems that wherever the wof/prosperity goes that it leaves behind disarray and shame to the point where the Full Gospel is treated as a pariah.

As for North America, well it seems that the Full Gospel churches have in most part forsaken the Gospel and turned to the god of secularism and materialism which is probably another way of describing the wof/prosperity message. Undoubtedly large portions of the North American church have jumped into bed with Wall Street where they have learnt the ways of greed and manipulation to the point where they have made it a science.

When it comes to “our side growing smaller and smaller”, even though I would like to think positively, you may very well be right in that the tentacles of the wof movement have certainly undermined the Body which is why the Full Gospel church is in such serious strife in most parts of the West. Hopefully the Church will be able to recover from the abuses and heresies of the wof/prosperity message and of course the Body of Christ has to also contend with the resurgence of the latter-rain movement along with the NARzies and from the far side we also have the horrid impact of Hybel’s seeker-sensitive ethos eating away at us.

And I do love the terms ‘hate’ and ‘hateful’, when I see these rather inane terms being thrown about it usually means that those who are using them have lost the ability to approach a discussion in a reasonable manner – maybe this is another one of those wof catchwords that are thrown around from time to time in the attempt to silence the critics of this movement; from my own position I would never use this type of vulgar language when referring to someone who disagree with me but I certainly do see the distinctives of the wof movement as being destructive, but this is with the distinctives and not with the man – the two are vastly different.

Lets see… what was the point of this particular topic again…

My point was not at all spurious as I provided source references to the claims that I made regarding numbers and doctrinal affiliations in the third world. Not only that, but another poster came on and added another five source references for similar statistics from other sources.

Not only have you provided no objective non-biased sources for your reasonings, you have provided no sources whatsoever. What you are relaying is subjective arguments based upon your own experience that is colored by a pre-existing bias to anything WOF. In other words, your observations mean nothing. After all, there are plenty of ex-christians and atheists that say the same sort of things about christianity in general, as your examples say about WOF. Because some are disgruntled or leave the faith, offers no evidence that the faith is wrong, or misguided.

As far as reasonable goes, I have never said that I scorn the leaders of the traditional Pentecostal or Full Gospel movements. I in fact respect and listen to a great many of them. You however, have repeatedly said such things about leaders of the WOF movement. Such statements are inherently hateful, and speak for themselves, showing to any unbiased observers that the lack of ability to objectively reason does not lie on my side of the fence, but is owned almost exclusively by you and yours. The only leaders from your side of the church that I would not listen to or would say anything about, would be those that have chosen the route of accusation and scorn against other members of the Body of Christ, that you have demonstated for us here.

Peace...

 

[hislegacy]

If poverty and lack is such a commendable virtue - why do people strive so hard to get out of it?

 

[hislegacy]

Oh, and BTW Biblicist -

Personally I don't respond to your broad general, unsubstantiated accusation against the Word of Faith for two basic reasons.

1. IMHO they are broad general, unsubstantiated and given with no references to back them up. Sort of like my saying that the sect that you follow has wreaked havoc in Europe for hundreds of years causing untold deaths. Ridiculous.

2. You don't seem to be here for a conversation or debate (which is why you are not debating the topic of the thread, but you have changed, or derailed it to a topic against WoF).

How about staying to the topic?

 

[Leimeng]

~ Me thinks it is better to believe the Bible on these things than the propoganda of the anti-faith/anti-Word cult.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If poverty and lack is such a commendable virtue - why do people strive so hard to get out of it?

This is a good question.
Of course you realize that those who rant and rave against prosperity are themselves sitting in a relative lap of luxury. They have at least enough spare cash to buy a thousand bucks worth of computer and INTERNET so that they can put down everyone for doing what they themselves do... seek wealth.
I do not get it. Prosperous people criticizing prosperous people.
Does the "h" word apply?
I will leave that to God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

~ Me thinks it is better to believe the Bible on these things than the propoganda of the anti-faith/anti-Word cult.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

I like that terminology. "Anti faith/Anti Word" Cult. I am WoF, they are "AFAW."
In many ways it is a cult. I am convinced that with many, it is more important to them to rail against faith than it is to promote Jesus. They are willing to deny the works of Jesus and deny His word just to get a few imagined points in an online discussion.
So sad... so sad.

 

[Simon Peter]

I like that terminology. "Anti faith/Anti Word" Cult.
I am WoF, they are "AFAW."
In many ways it is a cult.

So now, to be 'non-WoF' is to be part of a cult?

 

[Leimeng]

So now, to be 'non-WoF' is to be part of a cult?

~ A reading comprehension query. Does the phrase 'anti-pauline epistle/non urine drinking cult' mean that everyone who is opposed to the Pauline epistles a member of a cult? Does the statement mean that to be amongst the group of non urine drinkers make one a member of a cult? Is it all inclusive without exception or are there modifiers, logic and common sense that can be understood to say that not all non urine drinkers are cult members, but only some are?
~ Many anti-faith/anti-Word types are cult members however. One can look at the hyper-calvinist, mormons, JWs, SDAs, Moonies, hyper-fundamentalists, and a large percentage of KJVO types. A lot of denominational churches would fit in with the cult definition as well.
~ There are many who exist whose SEEMING purpose is to find false accusations about the WoF movement. They do not SEEM to care about the lost, care about the Bible, care about fellow Christians, or care about good teaching. They set up websites and write books which distort and lie about what WoF people believe. They SEEM to believe the devil is more powerful than Jesus and that Jesus's work on the Cross is only a form of fire insurance. They reject WoF types as being Christian as much as they reject clear instruction from God's Word.
~ So yes, there is an anti-faith/anti-Word cult. Membership is optional and requires one to disbelieve God's Word.
~ For the record though, I do not consider myself WoF. I am a Christian who believes the Bible. (As opposed to a Christian who only believes parts of the Bible that fit into my own experiences.)
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[Simon Peter]

~ A reading comprehension query. Does the phrase 'anti-pauline epistle/non urine drinking cult' mean that everyone who is opposed to the Pauline epistles a member of a cult?

Does the statement mean that to be amongst the group of non urine drinkers make one a member of a cult?

Is it all inclusive without exception or are there modifiers, logic and common sense that can be understood to say that not all non urine drinkers are cult members, but only some are?

~ Many anti-faith/anti-Word types are cult members however. One can look at the hyper-calvinist, mormons, JWs, SDAs, Moonies, hyper-fundamentalists, and a large percentage of KJVO types. A lot of denominational churches would fit in with the cult definition as well.

~ There are many who exist whose SEEMING purpose is to find false accusations about the WoF movement. They do not SEEM to care about the lost, care about the Bible, care about fellow Christians, or care about good teaching. They set up websites and write books which distort and lie about what WoF people believe. They SEEM to believe the devil is more powerful than Jesus and that Jesus's work on the Cross is only a form of fire insurance. They reject WoF types as being Christian as much as they reject clear instruction from God's Word.

~ So yes, there is an anti-faith/anti-Word cult. Membership is optional and requires one to disbelieve God's Word.

~ For the record though, I do not consider myself WoF. I am a Christian who believes the Bible. (As opposed to a Christian who only believes parts of the Bible that fit into my own experiences.)

Peace,
Leimeng

Reading comprehension:

Well if part of the descriptive phrase includes the word cult, then one assumes you are describing a cult:

'anti-pauline epistle/non urine drinking cult'

And if you join a group that describes itself as a cult, then you are likely a member of a cult.

But perhaps you meant to write about a sect of

'anti-pauline epistle/non urine drinkers'

in which case we'd still have to establish - by common sense and logic - if some or all of them were members of a cult.
How would we do that? Well what are the definitions of 'cult'?

1. A system of religious worship directed towards a person (not God) or object.
2. A religious group that imposes excessive control over members.

hmmm...

Suddenly the definition of cult isn't people who just happen to disagree with you.

Talking of disagreement. Are you Eastern Othrodox, Catholic or Protestant?

PROTESTant!

You are actually a member of a group that identifies themselves as PROTESTERS! PROTESTing the religious beliefs of others.

For the record though, I am a Christian who believes the Bible. (As opposed to a Christian who only believes parts of the Bible that fit into my own experiences.)


peace,
Simon

 

[Biblicist]

So now, to be 'non-WoF' is to be part of a cult?

Simon Peter,

I was amused by the icon of the jet flying over that palatial home but I wonder how many on this particular forum wonder when they were going to get theirs or even if the jet was big enough. Of course they could always wait a bit and do a Creflo Dollar and say “Hey, why should I turn the jet down - it was a gift from my church!”

The remark by one poster which was laid against mainstream Pentecostals which said, “They are willing to deny the works of Jesus...”;well this was probably even more bemusing as I have never heard anyone equate financial, spiritual and emotional abuse as being ‘works of Jesus’ and as for the way in which the Word is misconstrued and abused by the numerous celebrity woffers I would hardly call such things a work of Jesus either. As for the immorality that seems to be rampant within the senior elements of the wof movement one could presume that many on this forum believe that such activity is a legitimate form of walking in the Spirit...but silly me, surely all the adultery, financial deception and emotional abuse that we see coming from within the wof movement is only a conspiracy hatched by we ‘hateful mainline Pentecostals’ and for that matter by the many US law courts and the media.

Have you also noticed how so many woffers rather naively presume that they have some stranglehold on the blessings of God as if only they received financial blessings. What they fail to understand or choose to ignore is that Christians of all Full Gospel persuasions have been blessed by the Lord in many ways and we all regularly walk in these blessings though we don’t try to manipulate the masses by tricking them into giving money to ministries who are only there to line their own pockets. Unlike our OT forebears where financial or material wealth was the only real way of showing that one was ‘blessed’, for those of us who are now in the New Covenant we realise that there are even greater ways of showing how one is being blessed by God and this doesn’t require that we have a row of Roll Royces and a couple of Lear Jets attached to our palatial homes – I wonder if any woffers who read this will have even the slightest clue as to what I am talking about.

We should be a bit even handed by saying that such things are not merely the foundation stones of the wof movement as such shameful things are also found within mainline Pentecostal and Charismatic circles; but when they do occur we usually find a sense of shame (but not always) on the part of those who committed these acts but sadly the senior practitioners of the wof movement have made such things into a veritable science and they must roll on the ground laughing when they meet together knowing that they have conned and fleeced many of their devotees for another year.

I thought that probinsons statement #41 (you know, the person who had earlier used the excrement analogy) to be of some interest “What absolutely amazes me is that you honestly believe that all of the disparaging bile and empty fluff you've posted is somehow approaching this discussion "in a reasonable manner", when in reality, all you've really done is rant and rave.” I suppose that this might be symptomatic of a public forum in that it shows a complete lack or at least a complete lack of desire to acknowledge the incredible amount of both Christian and secular material that has addressed the litany of emotional, financial, spiritual and sexual abuses that seem to be a normal day to day part of being a senior wof practitioner. As if any of us needed to provide thousands and thousands of pages of material on the various and ongoing abuses that are perpetrated onto the Body of Christ by these senior wof celebrities – maybe we should ask them to simply open up a newspaper; I presume that they are aware of what’s been going on around them or maybe they are content to accept the frequent base behaviour of these wof celebrities as being ‘normal Christianity’, what a scary thought.

Even though I couldn’t find the remark when I did a quick search, I thought that someone equated wof teachings as being the hallmark of good Biblical doctrine and that we mainline Pentecostals and Charismatics are in some way heretics. What does intrigue me is that as I spend a fair amount of time looking into the material that is produced by the best Full Gospel academics along with those who would class themselves as being open-but-cautious, I cannot recall ever encountering any wof promoters who are a part of the Christian academic community, there may be some I suppose (well not really) but as the view of Christian academia runs along the lines that if someone were to refer to themselves as being a wof-academic that such a claim would be deemed to be an oxymoron – the two words simply cannot be used in the same sentence.

As an aside, about a month ago I stopped capitalising the acronym WoF where I now use wof as I felt that by employing capitalisation that even though it followed grammatical rules that it may be falsely implying that this movement was about the Word and about Faith instead of human precepts and faith in their own faith.

I should point out that my remarks about the wof industry in this topic have been fairly and reasonably directed towards the senior practitioners of this aberration of the Full Gospel movement, particularly as they relate to the incredible wealth of documented material that is freely available on government and non-government sites including many Christian and secular media sites; even so some have tried to imply that I am attacking them personally but this is probably just a desperate smokescreen that some when they realise (well I hope that they do) that they do not have a leg to stand on.

As I mentioned earlier, what was the particular topic about anyway...

That’s right, even though I think that it is best to avoid wof topics which is why I don’t go onto the wof forum or for that matter with the Roman Catholic Charismatic forum, I did find it hard to ignore the following opening statements of this topic:

#1

• What prosperity is not: get rich scheme, sin, not part of the gospel, something preachers shouldn't have, something not to be desired, or a gimic.
• First let me say that the prosperity message has been abused, but not to the extent as some proclaim. There a very few preachers that are stealing from people. Usually the ones who are you have never even heard of.
• The fact is you support the prosperity message two ways or one way. Either you agree with it on vocally and with actions

And my absolute favourite:

Even though I suggested to the OP that he maybe delete some phrases or even reconsider his wording, the following was then posted in reply;

#3

• I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.

So far I have not seen any interaction regarding my concerns with the OP remarks but as with most wof topics they soon dissolve into banality and insults so maybe I will leave this ridiculous topic and engage in those that have some value.

At least I have made one thing very plain, I have absolutely no tolerance for the spiritual, emotional, financial and moral abuses which seem to be a normal part of the life of a wof celebrity and I trust that I will live to see the day when the Lord will purge this wof aberration from within our midst.

 

[hislegacy]

So now, to be 'non-WoF' is to be part of a cult?

Not unless you cannot recognize the difference between

Non-WoF , an individual who is not Word of Faith

And

Anti-WoF , an individual who is against the what they perceive to be Word of Faith, whos focus is almost exclusively speaking accusations.

Hope that helps

 

[Simon Peter]

Not unless you cannot recognize the difference between

Non-WoF , an individual who is not Word of Faith

And

Anti-WoF , an individual who is against the what they perceive to be Word of Faith, whos focus is almost exclusively speaking accusations.

Hope that helps

Like I said in my last post: Are you a PROTESTant?

Yes, our entire branch of Christianity, almost one billion people, proudly call themselves PROTESTants. Because they vigorously PROTESTED against Catholicism.

It sounds like you'd prefer we were called "non-Catholics"


Here's you definition of "anti-WoF", or shall we call it 'Anti-Prosperity Gospel':

an individual who is against the what they perceive to be Word of Faith, whos focus is almost exclusively speaking accusations.

Perhaps unfortunately, I can't be classified as 'Anti-Prosperity Gospel' because I don't almost exclusively speak accusations against WoF. In fact I spend very little speaking out against WoF.

Let's see, in the 8 years 3 months I've been a member of CF, I've less than 2,000 posts. That's about 0.65 posts a day. Not even one post a day!

I can also assure you that I have not posted anti-WoF posts anywhere else, and spend virtually no time speaking out against (or "speaking accusations" as you prefer to say) WoF in the rest of my life.

Let's be generous, for your benefit, and pretend that every single post of mine was 'anti-Prosperity Gospel', and let's say 4 minutes a post, that's about 2.5 minutes a day out of 1440 minutes in a day.

hmmm...hardly "almost exclusively speaking accusations", is it.

I'm disapointed, it sounds like I don't even qualify for being 'Anti-WoF' for by your definition!

But how about you? You have over 11,000 posts in less that 6 years, that's over 20 minutes a day, most of them are either pushing the Prosperity Gospel, or speaking accusations against those who would question or criticise it.

Does that make you Anti-non-WoF

peace,
Simon

 

[probinson]

So far I have not seen any interaction regarding my concerns with the OP remarks but as with most wof topics they soon dissolve into banality and insults so maybe I will leave this ridiculous topic and engage in those that have some value.

Your posts in this thread are nothing but banality and insults. It makes it hard to "respond" to anything you've posted since it's all just empty bloviating.

But I don't think you do want to actually "engage" in this topic anyway. It appears to me that you just want to rant and rave, which you've accomplished.

 

[hislegacy]

But how about you? You have over 11,000 posts in less that 6 years, that's over 20 minutes a day, most of them are either pushing the Prosperity Gospel, or speaking accusations against those who would question or criticise it.

Does that make you Anti-non-WoF

peace,
Simon

Well let's indeed look at me.

First, if you care to investigate further. I took a 13 month leave from CF.
So my post rate is even higher.

I also served as a moderator and Chaplain for CF. For an extended period of time I was the only responding Chaplain on the site.

I also helped as requested behind the scenes on a number of things. At one point I was dedicating a out 20-25 hours a week and also financially supporting CF.

So when you take that into consideration, yeah I haves a lot of post.

As for being anti-non WoF - that's laughable. I don't tout the WoF icon because it is not, IMHO, represented well here.

I am against anyone who calls another group cancer or an aborration that God needs to wipe out, or takes everything they hate and pile it under one title, even when those they hate aren't of that title.

Regardless of the Title. WoF, Baptist whatever. People have the right to be here without being consistently names called and belittle by people who should know better and be more mature about things.

Last I looked self control was a godly trait.

 

[Simon Peter]

Well let's indeed look at me.

First, if you care to investigate further. I took a 13 month leave from CF.
So my post rate is even higher.

I also served as a moderator and Chaplain for CF. For an extended period of time I was the only responding Chaplain on the site.

I also helped as requested behind the scenes on a number of things. At one point I was dedicating a out 20-25 hours a week and also financially
supporting CF.

That's great

I have also given a lot of money to good causes, volunteered my time, and even minister to people (for free).

I am against anyone who calls another group cancer or an aborration that God needs to wipe out, or takes everything they hate and pile it under one title, even when those they hate aren't of that title.

Regardless of the Title. WoF, Baptist whatever. People have the right to be here without being consistently names called and belittle by people who should know better and be more mature about things.

CF has rules against such things. And as a former Mod you understand that better than most. If you think someone has broken the rules, you are able to report them.


peace,
Simon

 

[hislegacy]

That's great

I have also given a lot of money to good causes, volunteered my time, and even minister to people (for free).




CF has rules against such things. And as a former Mod you understand that better than most. If you think someone has broken the rules, you are able to report them.


peace,
Simon

Really?! Gosh I wish someone had informed me! Especially when I was a mod!!

In reality, I don't report very often. Sometimes you just let someone rant and they show their own true motives and colors.

That in itself is retribution enough.

 

[Simon Peter]

Really?! Gosh I wish someone had informed me! Especially when I was a mod!!

Then you also know that sarcasm is against the rules.

Oh...I just checked, sarcasm used to be against the rules, but they must have removed the sarcasm clause.

SARCASM is back on the menu boys...

In reality, I don't report very often. Sometimes you just let someone rant and they show their own true motives and colors.

That in itself is retribution enough.

Same here...give them enough rope...let them dig their own hole...and all that.

peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

Here's a more complete detailing of that incident;

Rev. Creflo Dollar arrested on family violence charges - Atlanta News, Weather, Traffic, and Sports | FOX 5

For those of you who don't wish to read it, the jist of it is Mr. Dollar's 15-year old daughter called 911 after arguing with him about whether or not she could go to a party and told the operator that her father had "...punched me and frightened me and choked me..." When the 911 operator asked his daughter if she had any injuries, she responded, "No, ma'am." Interesting response for someone who was just allegedly punched and choked.

When police arrived, they found a scratch on the right side of the daughter's throat that they classified as, "...superficial injuries..."

But all of these facts are just an inconvenience to the folks who want to shout CREFLO DOLLAR GOT ARRESTED FOR CHOKING HIS DAUGHTER!

Well isn't it a requirement to have a well behaved family to even qualify for a church leadership position? Obviously he has a rebellious daughter that called 911 to punish her father. That constitutes a form of witchcraft. A child can never punish a parent. They don't have the authority to do so.

If what you posted is correct, he should step down from any position of authority until he demonstrates a family in good standing. If he can't even raise a daughter properly, how is he fit to lead an entire congregation?

 

[Yahu]

I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.

The problem isn't doing it unscripturally. The problem is twisting scripture by mixing truth and error to change the concepts.

Example: A prosperity teacher that was a guest speaker at my bible college used the parable of the sower to equate to monetary gain. His message was plant your seed in good ground, ie a ministry that produced results in prosperity, ie his ministry to reap a great harvest. The Holy Spirit within me was twisting my guts in knots while he spoke. The message was NOT anointed by Yah!!!!

I can't stand to listen to Ceflo Dollar either. I can't always put my finger on where exactly the error is but it is unsettling. Granted my primary spiritual gift is discernment of spirits.