Of Course I Believe in Prosperity, so do you

[Biblicist]

Miahdog,

It is proper form to always place someones comments inside quotation marks so could you please place my comments this way...then I will be able to address your reply.

 

[paul becke]

I think the issue is not wealth but greed.
There are more greedy, money-loving poor people than there are rich of the same lust. Which is a shame since they have nothing with which to fulfil their lust. Just because you have money does not mean you are greedy. And just because you have no money does not mean you are not greedy. I would rather be weathy and not greedy than poor and greedy.

Just saying...

On the contrary. When Christ said, "Where your treasure is, there your heart is", he was precisely making the point that, as a rule, people don't come by a lot of money by accident; they come by it because they lust after it with all their heart. You either worship God or you despise Him and worship money. The person who started this thread stated that the Bible endorsed abundance, accumulation of worldly possessions. Then why pray, did he call the farmer who built another barn to accommodate the surplus of his bumper harvest, a fool, and require his life of him that night. Our thread-starter would perhaps be better advised to dwell more on the Last Things, rather than lust after consumer goods, and ever greater wealth. Perhaps God might consider it's time for him to meet his Maker.

Are we to believe that, when Christ instructed his apostles that they were not to take any money with them, no sandals, not even a change of clothes, he was deliberately misleading them on the subject of opulence? Indeed, would those very basic possessions normally qualify as perquisites of opulence? We may not all be called to that kind of austerity, but it would surely be viewed as a virtue. I believe that most of the poverty-stricken homeless are precisely that because their hearts are too spiritually-oriented, albeit on the subliminal level of our deepest motivations, for survival, or at least longevity, in our depraved Western societies.

While it is true that there are a some references to riches as a reward for virtue in the Old Testament, it is very much a minority testimony and so clearly figurative. Roger Bacon once remarked that prosperity was the blessing of the Old Testament; Adversity, the blessing of the New Testament.

Nevertheless, that too was, I have just indicated, a mistaken view. In fact, it is clear from a reading of the Old Testament that the rich are identified by God with wickedness, used as symbols, personifications of wickedness; the poor man, with the true Israel, the virtuous man. It is a recurrent theme, mostly notably, perhaps in the Prophets, whom, as Christ so bitterly remarked they murdered, since they didn't like their message.

It is amusing to see the contortions the rich go through in order to explain away the words, "They made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man at his death, although he had done no violence and had not spoken deceitfully."

As regards the rich man's violence, we, in the West are all implicated in it with varying degrees of guilt - the poor, least of all - as we cause the deaths of thousands of people of all ages in the Third World every day. But even in Europe and particularly in the US where Mammon is dressed up as the Christian God, often referred to as The American Dream, the millions of homeless people are so, as a result fo the blind, insensate greed of the American Dreamers. So, there's the violence of the rich.

Well, what about the rich "speaking deceitfully, then?" Socialism is supposed to be a terrible vice, while in the New Testament, Ambition, itself, is identified as a particularly pernicious evil. So the putative Christian right has allowed the biggest bunch of villains and half-wits, the actual, political Socialists to posture as the purveyors of de facto Christian observance, using the Second Commandment as their political "front". Just as the right wing used to use the First Commandment as their "political front". Nevertheless, better that vice should pay tribute to virtue, but now, alas, perhaps less so in the US, but certainly in the UK, you couldn't put a cigarette paper between them for ungodliness. And the rich with their their lethally ANTI-social behaviour have finally overreached with their enormous, world-wide, brazen credit fraud, bringing us, as they have, to the precipice of an economic disaster on a historically unparalleled scale. As someone pointed out on a blog, economic disasters are always associated with the prior moral collapse of a society. It is certainly a recurrent theme in the Old Testament.

Milton Freedman, the modern-day guru of the neoliberals, who have imposed this culture of infinite, godless greed on our societies, made no bones at all about his contempt for morality in business, when he stated that the only duty a CEO has, is to maximize the profits of his stockholders. And he meant in the short-term!

It is surely an indication of the wilful blindness of the rich, that in the UK, they have chosen as their putative guru the eighteenth-century, moral philosopher, Adam Smith. Here is what Smith had to say about businessmen - and that was really before capitalism had taken off:


Who Owns Adam Smith? | Common Dreams


Smith was clearly a Socialist of the first water, going so far as to say that people should be taxed according to their means! Why the dirty low-down Commie sob! I don't think even after WWII, when our half-decent Labour party built up our welfare state, the rich paid in proportion to their earnings, even though their upper tax-band levy was equivalent to 95p in the pound.


Furthermore, you are libelling, grossly defaming the poor, whom James described in his Epistle as having been chosen by God to be rich in faith. "Blessed are the poor," as Christ himself stated. The great virtue of poverty of spirit, moreover, as St Leo the Great pointed out in one of his sermons, is more commonly to be found among those who are poor in material possessions than in the rich, self-satisfaction and pride, in the rich, rather than the poor.

It does happen, notaby in the case of family businesses, that the owners are indeed, in part, motivated by a spirit of sacrifice and concern for their workers. While not the fundamental motivation for their work, such a spirit of sacrifice impelling them to put in long hours, from early morning to relatively late, can be striking, if, like me, you are very much more aware of the general depravity of the business ethos, generally.

 

[Biblicist]

On the contrary...

Impressive!

 

[dkbwarrior]

For those of us who have been in the Lord for a few years and particularly within the Full Gospel movement, we would be well aware of the incredible chasm that exists between those who are wof proponents and with those who are not.

True, and that chasm is expanding at an exponential rate; with your side growing smaller and more hateful in your accusations and language year by year, and the side that believes in the promises of God for all men gowing exponentially faster around the world, and for most intents and purposes, refusing to even engage the shrill accusations of your side, except in such places where we cannot help but rub shoulders with you.

Even though I hold the vast majority (if not all) of the major wof/prosperity celebrities in complete scorn...

34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
-Proverbs 3:34

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
-Psam 1:1-2

Peace...

 

[probinson]

Now to the matter at hand...

For those of us who have been in the Lord for a few years and particularly within the Full Gospel movement,

Would that include me? I've been a Christian in the WoF movement for 32 years. Does that count as a "few years" in your book?

we would be well aware of the incredible chasm that exists between those who are wof proponents and with those who are not.

Yes, I am well aware of the bitter hatred by WoF some (but thankfully, not all) Full Gospel people possess.

When it comes to general doctrine as with ecclesiology and Pneumatology, I can relish indepth discussions in these and other areas and can agree to disagree with those who hold to differing opinions. Things certainly change when it comes to the toxic teachings that originate from the prominent leaders of the wof movement as their tares have wreaked havoc within the Body of Christ for decades and when someone posts a topic that is so outrageous it can be hard to simply sit back and allow the numerous naive comments to remain unchallenged.

Sure. Challenge away.

With my first few posts I tried to suggest that Miadog show some wisdom

The whole jist of your post is how you're wise and we're not. You've been around for a "few years" and we haven't. Really just a bunch of smoke and mirrors with no substance.

by not posting such outlandish statements that I ‘m sure would make even the most mature rank-and-file woffer cringe but it seems that more were added with each successive post; maybe they should be posted in the wof forum as they may or may not go unchallenged which is an area that others including myself do not post in; I also do not post in the Roman Catholic charismatic forum – too many scary topics.

Just as you have a right to "challenge" things, Miahdog has a right to post in this forum as well.

Hopefully the more mature wof proponents will encourage the less experienced woffers to display some wisdom by not making statements that will make any reasoned believer

There you go again! You're "reasoned" and we're not. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

cringe and they need to be aware that a large portion of the Full Gospel movement is thoroughly repulsed by the distinctive teachings of the numerous wof celebrities and of course the same goes for the Latter-rain and NARzie distinctive doctrines as well.

Ah yes, the boogie men of the new heresy hunting web. I don't know what some people would do with themselves if they didn't spend all their time chasing around these boogie men.

Even though I hold the vast majority (if not all) of the major wof/prosperity celebrities in complete scorn, I well appreciate that many of their followers are people of good will who try to do what is right and with such people I have little problem. Where I do have problems is when people post material that is so outrageous that it defies any semblance of logic,

Now you employ "logic" and we don't. Do you think it would be possible to make your point without elevating yourself above those with which you disagree?

maybe most of these people are simply new in the Lord and have yet to come out from under the influence of their leaders; but I am sadly all too well aware that there are also many wof rank-and-filers who are simply content to be conned and to have their ears tickled by the latest wof/prosperity celebrity ...all too well aware.

That's it? I just realized I've made it all the way to the bottom of your post, and all you managed to do was disparage an entire group of people and make yourself appear wise, mature, logical and reasoned, unlike the conned turnip farmers who just aren't nearly as smart as you.

Vomit. Inducing. Cow flop.

When you have something of substance, feel free to come on back. I'll be happy to share some of my 3+ decades of good fruit in the WoF movement.

 

[JimB]

Would that include me? I've been a Christian in the WoF movement for 32 years. Does that count as a "few years" in your book?



Yes, I am well aware of the bitter hatred by WoF some (but thankfully, not all) Full Gospel people possess.



Sure. Challenge away.



The whole jist of your post is how you're wise and we're not. You've been around for a "few years" and we haven't. Really just a bunch of smoke and mirrors with no substance.



Just as you have a right to "challenge" things, Miahdog has a right to post in this forum as well.



There you go again! You're "reasoned" and we're not. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.



Ah yes, the boogie men of the new heresy hunting web. I don't know what some people would do with themselves if they didn't spend all their time chasing around these boogie men.



Now you employ "logic" and we don't. Do you think it would be possible to make your point without elevating yourself above those with which you disagree?



That's it? I just realized I've made it all the way to the bottom of your post, and all you managed to do was disparage an entire group of people and make yourself appear wise, mature, logical and reasoned, unlike the conned turnip farmers who just aren't nearly as smart as you.

Vomit. Inducing. Cow flop.

When you have something of substance, feel free to come on back. I'll be happy to share some of my 3+ decades of good fruit in the WoF movement.

-

 

[hislegacy]

That's it? I just realized I've made it all the way to the bottom of your post, and all you managed to do was disparage an entire group of people and make yourself appear wise, mature, logical and reasoned, unlike the conned turnip farmers who just aren't nearly as smart as you.

Vomit. Inducing. Cow flop.

When you have something of substance, feel free to come on back. I'll be happy to share some of my 3+ decades of good fruit in the WoF movement.

I always thought, an still do, think you are a better man than this.

 

[Leimeng]

I would probably delete this part of your post as the wof/prosperity movement has turned greed and selfishness into a veritable science. We only have to take a look at the so called ministries who spread their wares from within this movement to see how they have in most part manipulated the gullible or maybe they have simply been playing to the innate selfishness/greed that resides within us.

~ I would say that greed, selfishness, and covetousness are hallmarks of the anti-faith/anti-Word cult and its supporters and apologists.
~ WHY is anyone concerned about what another Christian has? Why not instead be concerned with the Word of God?
~ Here is some reading that should scare the anti-faith/anti-Word cult members...
Psalm 1


1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

~ Notice verse three. Notice how it says in addition to being planted by rivers of water (so they can always have supply of living water and grow), that it says that in his season he shall bring forth fruit, and he shall not wither and WHATSOEVER he doeth shall prosper. WHATSOEVER he doeth!
~ There are many many many more passages like this promising prosperity in God's Word. This is one example of this explicitly being promised along with the conditions (continual meditation on God's law and Word and associating with Godly people) for such.
~ One can try to explain it away (prosperity does not mean money or material things is the biggest one the anti-faith/anti-Word cult likes to use a lot), but the point is that it says WHATSOEVER he doeth shall prosper!
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves....

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[probinson]

~ WHY is anyone concerned about what another Christian has? Why not instead be concerned with the Word of God?

This is a question I've pondered for years. Most WoF people I've known over the years could honestly care less about money, how big the house is someone lives in, etc. Yet the anti-WoF crowd seem to be absolutely enamored by it.

It's odd. They tell use we should not have our focus on money (which most of us don't), but then they turn around and yammer on endlessly about money and material possessions. Ironic.

 

[hislegacy]

WoF a cancer on the church. One of the most laughable comments I have heard on CF.

I THOUGHT a bad tree cannot bear good fruit?

Just so ya know, so far this cancer has;

Seen more than 25,000 people in 7 countries proclaim Jesus as their Lord and Saviour
Seen more than 600 people share how God healed them through someone in the ministry
Seen more than 300 Single moms ministered to through men stepping forward and helping with mechanical and construction/maintenance issues
Seen more than 30,000 meals provided for here in the US and in Africa
Seen 5 local churches of other denomination benefit from cash donations and four more through equipment and furniture given.
Seen 14 churches in foreign countries supported on a monthly basis

If that is cancer, and you have the cure. I'll pass.

 

[MinJeremiah]

WoF a cancer on the church. One of the most laughable comments I have heard on CF.

I THOUGHT a bad tree cannot bear good fruit?

Just so ya know, so far this cancer has;

Seen more than 25,000 people in 7 countries proclaim Jesus as their Lord and Saviour
Seen more than 600 people share how God healed them through someone in the ministry
Seen more than 300 Single moms ministered to through men stepping forward and helping with mechanical and construction/maintenance issues
Seen more than 30,000 meals provided for here in the US and in Africa
Seen 5 local churches of other denomination benefit from cash donations and four more through equipment and furniture given.
Seen 14 churches in foreign countries supported on a monthly basis

If that is cancer, and you have the cure. I'll pass.

That is great. Keep it up!!! To God be Glory!!! Just think, these Word of Faith folks are reaching more for Jesus throuigh television, radio, programs, and finances than any other group in the church right now. It is wierd to me how only folks is this forum think that the Word of Faith is not making a impact. Most of the largest ministries in the earth right now are Word of Faith or associate with Word of Faith ministries.

 

[hislegacy]

Look at the patriarchs in the OT

How many we're poor compared to how many were extremely wealthy.

Even Job, the poster boy for the Sickness and poverty group ended up EXTEMELY wealthy when he finally repented.

 

[Humble Pie]

Thanks, I'd love to see it.
Statistically there should be more greedy poor people than greedy rich people, simply because (as you suggest) the pool of poor people is larger.

Study shows rich people are less ethical

Basically finds that the upper ranks are more self centred people.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/27/science/la-sci-0228-greed-20120228
Another link

 

[hislegacy]

Study shows rich people are less ethical

Basically finds that the upper ranks are more self centred people.

Wealthy, motivated by greed, are more likely to cheat, study finds - Los Angeles Times
Another link

Femamisting. You gotta be joking.

Like using a white supremesist blog to prove the KKK was just a men's club

 

[Humble Pie]

Is that all you could say about the scientific studies?

 

[hislegacy]

Is that all you could say about the scientific studies?

I don't consider them scientific nor unbiased. So yes, that's the best I have.

Do you have something from a reliable source.

Greed is a condition of a persons heart, not their pocket. I've met people who are not wealthy who are the greediest, most envying people on earth, while some will give their last crumb to bless someone. And vice versa.

The site you linked promotes IMHO, an unbalanced and unhealthy, even immoral approach to a number of areas. Including class envy.

 

[Faulty]

Look at the patriarchs in the OT

How many we're poor compared to how many were extremely wealthy.

Even Job, the poster boy for the Sickness and poverty group ended up EXTEMELY wealthy when he finally repented.

There is absolutely no way to know. We are only shown a few.

 

[MinJeremiah]

There is absolutely no way to know. We are only shown a few.

We can believe that God honored the Covenant. Do you agree that prosperity was a promise to all of Israel?

 

[Biblicist]

True, and that chasm is expanding at an exponential rate; with your side growing smaller and more hateful in your accusations and language year by year, and the side that believes in the promises of God for all men gowing exponentially faster around the world, and for most intents and purposes, refusing to even engage the shrill accusations of your side, except in such places where we cannot help but rub shoulders with you.

34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.
-Proverbs 3:34

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
-Psam 1:1-2

Peace...

You raised this spurious point within another topic and when I responded by saying that the Full Gospel message within mainland China had been discredited years ago by the wof movement which is something that you failed to address. I also made mention that an organisation that I am associated with has had to spend a copious amount of time addressing the serious concerns of many Chinese believers and hopefully we will see the mainland Chinese believers embracing the Full Gospel once they understand that the wof movement is an aberration of the Full Gospel movement, much the same as the latter-rain movement and the NARzies are.

I also raised how the wof/prosperity philosophy has wreaked havoc in south-west Africa where large portions of the church won’t even touch the Full Gospel as it has been so heavily tainted by the abuses that were perpetrated by various wof practitioners including many from the US – and undoubtedly the list can go on and on. Even here in Australia I have had to try and counter the concerns of both many cessationists and the unsaved where they have been able to observe the same type of abuses being performed here by these practitioners – and this has greatly undermined the work of the Full Gospel.
This problem has also caused a great amount of concern with many Full Gospel believers as well in that their confidence has been greatly shaken by the countless shameful actions of the many wof celebrities. It seems that wherever the wof/prosperity goes that it leaves behind disarray and shame to the point where the Full Gospel is treated as a pariah.

As for North America, well it seems that the Full Gospel churches have in most part forsaken the Gospel and turned to the god of secularism and materialism which is probably another way of describing the wof/prosperity message. Undoubtedly large portions of the North American church have jumped into bed with Wall Street where they have learnt the ways of greed and manipulation to the point where they have made it a science.

When it comes to “our side growing smaller and smaller”, even though I would like to think positively, you may very well be right in that the tentacles of the wof movement have certainly undermined the Body which is why the Full Gospel church is in such serious strife in most parts of the West. Hopefully the Church will be able to recover from the abuses and heresies of the wof/prosperity message and of course the Body of Christ has to also contend with the resurgence of the latter-rain movement along with the NARzies and from the far side we also have the horrid impact of Hybel’s seeker-sensitive ethos eating away at us.

And I do love the terms ‘hate’ and ‘hateful’, when I see these rather inane terms being thrown about it usually means that those who are using them have lost the ability to approach a discussion in a reasonable manner – maybe this is another one of those wof catchwords that are thrown around from time to time in the attempt to silence the critics of this movement; from my own position I would never use this type of vulgar language when referring to someone who disagree with me but I certainly do see the distinctives of the wof movement as being destructive, but this is with the distinctives and not with the man – the two are vastly different.

Lets see… what was the point of this particular topic again…

 

[lismore]

We can believe that God honored the Covenant. Do you agree that prosperity was a promise to all of Israel?

It seemed to bypass John the Baptist.