O That the Atheist....

2PhiloVoid

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This is where I think we fundamentally differ. Everything winds down, entropy universally goes up, even fundamental particles decay given enough time. That's part of existence. For us to be here there must be energy gradients trying to equalise. Wherefor death is not an error in the system but a manifestation of what makes the system possible.

Actually, I don't think the Bible clearly contradicts the idea that "...death is not an error in the system but a manifestation of what makes the system possible." The Bible does present a problematic narrative, but not a clear cut contradiction to what you're saying. Although, I would admit that some dominant interpretations given by certain personages within the Church do imply a contradiction to what you're saying.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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O that believer needs to work on patience.

Thou art alittle full of yourself with the O's, be careful don't step on His toes.

Nah. I have patience. Don't need any more. Trust me, I know what it's like to wait on the Lord.
 
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BeyondET

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Nah. I have patience. Don't need any more. Trust me, I know what it's like to wait on the Lord.
You shouldn't act like your the KJV Bible speaking, O thou art was doing in the OP. That's totally unnecessary flamboyance. That kind of talk will get you no where and helps no one.
 
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stevil

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We have continued to do that updating reality into a new reality.
We don't update reality into a new reality. Our amazing scientists update their models of reality, our understanding of the reality that is.

I think the reasonable thing to say is all possibilities are on the table. Considering the fact that to come up with a theory of consciousness requires something beyond the current paradigm of thinking I would not be so confident that the evidence will require some different kind of support than cause and effect within the space and time reality.
It is not reasonable to think it is possible to have a mind without a brain, a mind made of either nothing or supernatural material, that is seperate from the body, that continues to exist even when the body dies. It is not reasonable to think it possible to have a mind that existed before SpaceTime, before energy, before matter. There is no evidence of any supernatural substance or realm, there is no evidence that a mind is anything other than the workings of the physical brain. As we know, a mind can only be inside a specific brain and can only affect the body that has that brain. When a brain is injured, the mind can go, it can go into cognitive decline when the parietal lobe deteriorates, it can have long term memory issues, etc, etc. To put this as a possibility on the table, you need to find some evidence suggesting this could be the case.
Discover the supernatural realm, find a testable, falsifiable, recreatable test that proves this realm exists. Find a test where the mind can affect something without having to just affect a brain which that mind is the mind of. E.G get a person to think really hard and will a lightbulb to glow, or will a tap to turn or will a spoon into existence <poof> there it is, or use their mind to read someone else's memories or control someone else's body. Any of these things would be proof that there is something to what you are claiming and would need further investigation.


At the moment your claim is just imaginative fantasy.
It is a very poorly thought out claim.
You are not telling us what the mind is, what it is made of, and what plane of existence it lives in.
You are not telling us how a specific mind becomes bonded to a specific brain
You are not telling us why minds get bonded to brains
You are not telling us why minds are completely constrained to only be able to affect a brain.
You are not telling us how minds come to exist
You are not telling us what happens to a mind after the body dies.
You are not telling us how a mind can alter reality, other than control the person's brain.

The only evidence you present is the double slit experiment or the schrodenger's cat thought experiment.
In the realm of quantum physics when things are so small, you cannot observe them without altering them. You don't alter them with your mind, you alter them with the apparatus used to observe.
 
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Hans Blaster

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O that believer needs to work on patience.

Thou art alittle full of yourself with the O's, be careful don't step on His toes.
I see it as a reasonable warning that the text is nothing else but preaching and can be ignored. YMMV.
 
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BeyondET

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I see it as a reasonable warning that the text is nothing else but preaching and can be ignored. YMMV.
Woe thou art O surely wasn't convincing rather venting if anything.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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You shouldn't act like your the KJV Bible speaking, O thou art was doing in the OP. That's totally unnecessary flamboyance. That kind of talk will get you no where and helps no one.

I've spoken that way in church when giving a message and it has been well received. It's the way most of the old school preachers preached also.
It's the message of the message that's important, that being Jesus Christ came to save sinners, and calls you to believe.

Woe thou art O surely wasn't convincing rather venting if anything.

Thou dost not speak the King's English in proper manner. Woe art thou! O surely thou wast not convincing, but perhaps venting thy emotion? There, I fixed it for you. ^_^
 
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BeyondET

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I've spoken that way in church when giving a message and it has been well received. It's the way most of the old school preachers preached also.
Like Hans Blaster mentioned YMMV. How about work on your versatility.

and calls you to believe.
O really, hmm is that an assumption or a insertion.

Thou dost not speak the King's English in proper manner. Woe art thou! O surely thou wast not convincing, but perhaps venting thy emotion? There, I fixed it for you. ^_^
Nay just shows your still on milk.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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Like Hans Blaster mentioned YMMV. How about work on your versatility.


O really, hmm is that an assumption or a insertion.


Nay just shows your still on milk.

I desire both the sincere milk of the Word, as well as the lean meat. Christ does call you to believe, and you will one of these days sooner or later. I pray sooner. All will come to know Christ is LORD in the end, but it all depends on how you come to realize that Truth.

It would really stink if you all came to stand before the King and Judge of the Universe as an unrepentant sinner and realize, man, those people on the forum and whoever talked to me about Jesus were Right!
 
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BeyondET

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I desire both the sincere milk of the Word, as well as the lean meat. Christ does call you to believe, and you will one of these days sooner or later. I pray sooner. All will come to know Christ is LORD in the end, but it all depends on how you come to realize that Truth.

It would really stink if you all came to stand before the King and Judge of the Universe as an unrepentant sinner and realize, man, those people on the forum and whoever talked to me about Jesus were Right!
You remind me of a squeaky gate, and you don't know me at all.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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You remind me of a squeaky gate, and you don't know me at all.

Mice squeak. It's ok. Squeaky gate is one of the milder things I've been called! How is it you seem to take the side of the Atheist, while your faith says you're Christian? Either you believe the Word and all that it says, or you don't.
 
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BeyondET

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Mice squeak. It's ok. Squeaky gate is one of the milder things I've been called! How is it you seem to take the side of the Atheist, while your faith says you're Christian? Either you believe the Word and all that it says, or you don't.
Maybe one day you will know why I do what I do.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I desire both the sincere milk of the Word, as well as the lean meat. Christ does call you to believe, and you will one of these days sooner or later. I pray sooner. All will come to know Christ is LORD in the end, but it all depends on how you come to realize that Truth.
I'm still not interested in your preaching. Preaching was for church and I stopped going 20+ years ago.
It would really stink if you all came to stand before the King and Judge of the Universe as an unrepentant sinner and realize, man, those people on the forum and whoever talked to me about Jesus were Right!
Since you seem to know all about us atheists, you'd know we don't believe in sin either. (or satan)
 
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stevevw

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We don't update reality into a new reality. Our amazing scientists update their models of reality, our understanding of the reality that is.
But occassionally theres a complete paradigm shift such as from classical physics to quantum physics or even greater revolutions like the Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions.

I think the idea that scientists update their models can turn into poor science as sometimes an idea is updated so much to maintain an assumed theory that is becomes too complicated.
It is not reasonable to think it is possible to have a mind without a brain, a mind made of either nothing or supernatural material, that is seperate from the body, that continues to exist even when the body dies. It is not reasonable to think it possible to have a mind that existed before SpaceTime, before energy, before matter.
I don't know about that. Think of what could possibly be before time, space and matter. What brought about time, space and matter. Whatever that is it has to be able to always exist somehow yet be beyond our conceptions of time, space and matter.

It would be unreasonable to say that something within the time, space and matter schema could cause time, space and matter. something cannot cause itself. So its more reasonable to think that something like information, knowledge, a Mind or some sort of Consciousness was always around. A thought has not dimension of time, space and matter.

Yet it is a thought that brings about ideas into reality. Its a concept that creates reality and like some interpretations in QM 'it is the observers mind' that creates reality.

If this is fundemental then it makes sense that some sort of mind that observers can tap into exsisted before any concepts of time, space and matter. We cannot get outside our mind to verify anything, so that in itself points to mind being the creator of reality.
There is no evidence of any supernatural substance or realm,
There is in the sense that phenomenal realism exists which cannot be broken down to time, space and matter.
there is no evidence that a mind is anything other than the workings of the physical brain.
The workings of the brain cannot excplain phenomenal experiences that are of a qualitative nature where as the physical brain is explained in quantitative measures. So physical explanations cannot even explain this in the first place.
As we know, a mind can only be inside a specific brain and can only affect the body that has that brain.
But the concepts, knowledge and information of mind can be beyond mind in that it is the basis for how we see things. The information and knowledge is already there in nature, in the universe beyond mind. We are just tapping into that with our minds.

As I also mentioned there is evdience for mind beyond brain such as with blind sight, NDE, conscious experience when the brain is compromised and many other unexplained situations where people can gain knowledge of events beyond their own minds.
When a brain is injured, the mind can go, it can go into cognitive decline when the parietal lobe deteriorates, it can have long term memory issues, etc, etc.
THis may be like a radio reciever. If the transistors or wiring are broken or loose then we lose signal. But the radio waves are in the universe and the reciever detects the waves. So when its damaged its going to lose connection.

But at the same time we ahve seen unconscious or minimal brain tisse and there still being some consciousness.
To put this as a possibility on the table, you need to find some evidence suggesting this could be the case.
Discover the supernatural realm, find a testable, falsifiable, recreatable test that proves this realm exists. Find a test where the mind can affect something without having to just affect a brain which that mind is the mind of.
I think that evidence is already there except we put it down to coincident or imagination. Like dejavu, premonition, intuition. When people have the same state of mind at the same time for no explained reason.

The simple idea of Mind over matter may be more than just positive thinking. There may be some interaction with the world around us that influences positive opr negative outcomes due the the state of ones mind. But certainly there is a lot of power the mind can have over situations and outcomes as it is the mind and experiences that determine our outlook at reality.

If you constantly seperate the mind from all that your measuring then of course it will seem like whatever we are measuring is devoid of any influence of the mind. But as the mind is central and we cannot get away from it then who says that its the mind that is not creatingf the outcomes and that the interactions do not involves some influence of mind.

E.G get a person to think really hard and will a lightbulb to glow, or will a tap to turn or will a spoon into existence <poof> there it is, or use their mind to read someone else's memories or control someone else's body.
But is not the fact that it was the Mind that created the light buld in the first place the influence of the Mind in the equation. There would be no light bulb but for mind.

I am not sure that even testing the mind by influence at a distance on a current or particle at the macro level is possible as yet. I don't think at this stage thats even the right test. The minds influence may be way more subtle at a more fundemental level. Or it may be that there needs to be a certain combination of factors for it to transfer into the macro level as it seems consciousness is more related to the quantum world in its effect.

But I remember reading there are some experiments that are bringing the quantum effect like 'Entanglement' into the macro. I meran as far as I understand the ul;timate aim of using quantum physics is to bring its effects into the macro world succ as with quantum computing. I think they have also been able to travel backwards in time by a fraction of time. So why knows what we will discover.
Any of these things would be proof that there is something to what you are claiming and would need further investigation.


At the moment your claim is just imaginative fantasy.
It is a very poorly thought out claim.
You are not telling us what the mind is, what it is made of, and what plane of existence it lives in.
You are not telling us how a specific mind becomes bonded to a specific brain
You are not telling us why minds get bonded to brains
You are not telling us why minds are completely constrained to only be able to affect a brain.
You are not telling us how minds come to exist
You are not telling us what happens to a mind after the body dies.
You are not telling us how a mind can alter reality, other than control the person's brain.

The only evidence you present is the double slit experiment or the schrodenger's cat thought experiment.
In the realm of quantum physics when things are so small, you cannot observe them without altering them. You don't alter them with your mind, you alter them with the apparatus used to observe.
That is only one interpretation of QM. There are many based on mind being fundemental. Like I said there are experients that are bringing the quantum effects into the macro world.

There are now entire fields of study into consciousness and mind being fundemental and many are based on scientific theories and can be tested. Like Information theories or the various ideas based on Panphychism. There are many good arguements as I mentioned that support MInd and consciousness as fundemental.

Like I said your demanding a certain kind of evidence according to the material scientific paradigm. It may be that we need a completely different paradigm shift in thinking to even understand how to measure Mind beyond brain. All your doing is claiming an epistemic truth which is not fact but only one way to knowledge about reality and not scientific fact itself.
 
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pgp_protector

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Alcohol is banned in the Kingdom of heaven. But it will not be needed to experience joy and bliss, nor shall there be the associated sickness that often comes to those who get drunk.
1711629470019.png
 
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Hans Blaster

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I don't know about that. Think of what could possibly be before time, space and matter. What brought about time, space and matter. Whatever that is it has to be able to always exist somehow yet be beyond our conceptions of time, space and matter.

There is no need to assume that time, space, and fields didn't always exist.
 
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stevil

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But occassionally theres a complete paradigm shift such as from classical physics to quantum physics or even greater revolutions like the Copernican and the Darwinian Revolutions.
Doesn't change reality at all. Just changes our models of reality.
I think the idea that scientists update their models can turn into poor science as sometimes an idea is updated so much to maintain an assumed theory that is becomes too complicated.
General Relativity is very complicated. In most circumstances scientists still use Newton's models, but when calculations need to include fast speeds, or gravity then they go to Einstein's models. For example GPS would be highly inaccurate under Newton's models.

I don't know about that. Think of what could possibly be before time, space and matter. What brought about time, space and matter. Whatever that is it has to be able to always exist somehow yet be beyond our conceptions of time, space and matter.
Was there ever a time when we didn't have time and space and energy? No one knows.
Religious folk will say, Yes there was, and before all that was God, my God, the god of my religion with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality.
You will say, YES there was, and before that there were eternal minds, with knowledge and information and capability to poof things into existence and capability to change reality.
Scientists will say, there is no evidence of having no time, no space, no energy so it is unknown. What precedes is unknown. Is there a god poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim. Is there evidence of minds poofing things into existence and changing reality? There is no evidence to support this poorly formed claim.
It would be unreasonable to say that something within the time, space and matter schema could cause time, space and matter.
Sure
So its more reasonable to think that something like information, knowledge, a Mind or some sort of Consciousness was always around.
Nope, that isn't reasonable at all.
What is it made of?
What mechanism does it have to poof things into existence?
Or to move things?
or to change reality?
How can information and knowledge pre-exist existence? All it could possibly have is knowledge of nothing.

Perhaps spacetime is eternal, perhaps there is a multiverse. answer = Unknown.
A thought has not dimension of time, space and matter.
A thought is the inner workings of the brain. Conceptualising ideas, concepts don't physically exist, they are just tools and models used by conscious beings to think about things. Like a circle, it is just a concept. A circle doesn't exist.

I feel you are falling for the same trap that many religion folk fall for. Getting confused between the idea of conceptual things vs physical things.
Yet it is a thought that brings about ideas into reality.
Nope. No one thinks something into reality.
If someone has an idea for a lightbulb, they have to physically get some metal and create a wire, get some acid and metal and create a battery, physically put it all together to create that lightbulb. There is nothing special about this. The mind isn't poofing a lightbulb into existence.
Oh Boy!
Its a concept that creates reality and like some interpretations in QM 'it is the observers mind' that creates reality.
No, that's not even close to what QM says.
They are saying that observation collapses the wave function. It's not creating the fields, it's not creating the particles, it's not creating or deciding upon the velocity or the position. You can't sit somewhere in USA with your eyes closed and think really hard and next minute a lightbulb turns on in China.
If this is fundemental then it makes sense that some sort of mind that observers can tap into exsisted before any concepts of time, space and matter.
That doesn't make any sense at all.
We cannot get outside our mind to verify anything, so that in itself points to mind being the creator of reality.
If you can't verify your idea, then throw it onto the trash heap of nonsense ideas. There are a very lot of those.
Thankfully we toss them aside and move on.
The workings of the brain cannot excplain phenomenal experiences that are of a qualitative nature where as the physical brain is explained in quantitative measures. So physical explanations cannot even explain this in the first place.
If you can't explain something then just put "Unknown" as a placeholder. No need to come up with an unverifiable idea of a god or mind abstract from physical reality. That's just being lazy, and presupposing something that you have no intent to find any evidence for.
But the concepts, knowledge and information of mind can be beyond mind in that it is the basis for how we see things. The information and knowledge is already there in nature, in the universe beyond mind. We are just tapping into that with our minds.
Sorry what?
You are saying knowledge comes from nature and the universe.
But then, didn't you say the mind had this knowledge from before the universe existed?
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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I'm still not interested in your preaching. Preaching was for church and I stopped going 20+ years ago.

Since you seem to know all about us atheists, you'd know we don't believe in sin either. (or satan)
You don't believe in sin, nor Satan, nor repentance, etc. I was there at one point in life, around age 22.

Still, I have to speak the Word, whether or not people listen, or read. And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. That's what Ezekiel was instructed to do.
We are all sinners, that's truth whether or not someone believes it, and Christ died for our sins and his shed blood is the only payment for that sin, by which we can come to God the Father and have eternal life.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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I'm perusing through some of Samuel Rutherford's works and came across this!:eek:

"Woe, woe, forevermore, be to the time-turning atheist, who hath one god and one religion for summer, and another god and another religion for winter, and the day of fanning, when Christ fanneth all that is in His barn-floor; who hath a conscience for every fair and market, and the soul of him runneth upon these oiled wheels: time, custom, the world, and command of men. Oh, if the careless atheist, and sleeping man, who edgeth by all with, ‘God forgive our pastors if they lead us wrong, we must do as they command,’ and layeth down his head upon time’s bosom, and giveth his conscience to a deputy, and sleepeth so, till the smoke of hell-fire fly up in his throat, and cause him to start out of his doleful bed! O if such a man would awake!"
From, To the Parishioners of Anwoth, from Aberdeen, 13 July 1637
 
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