O That the Atheist....

Hans Blaster

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If particles, colours (light waves), shapes, temperature or time are just a surface view or reflection perhaps of something more fundemental then it is mind that is creating the concepts of time, objects and colours ect. We know that perception can be warped, we know we can percieve things which are not real. So perhaps this is a glimpse or better still glitch in the matrix of the object world we create.

Temperature is not a "surface view" or "reflection". Temperature is the measure of the mean energy per particle.

Particles are discrete quanta of fields that can be detected and measured. They are not reflections or surfaces of anything.

Colors are either (1) the specific wavelength of a photon, or (2) the collective emission, transmission, or reflective spectrum from an object as interpreted by a detector (whether a filter+CCD or the retina+brain or otherwise).

Time is one of the coordinates of spacetime and intrinsic to physics.

As for shapes, see topology and geometry.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not the Lake of Fire where all the liars, dogs and wizards go?

In the Apocalypse, it's noteworthy that hell/hades is itself described as being cast into the lake of fire.

The subject of "hell" is a lot more complicated, nuanced, and ambiguous then popularly conceived here in the modern West. From the perspective of the Eastern Orthodox, as just an example, "hell" isn't even a separate location than "heaven"; but is instead two different experiences of God's love rooted not in God's objective action; but in in a person's subjective disposition. Hell is hell and heaven is heaven for the same reason: God is love. But for the righteous love is wonderful, but for the wicked love is terrible. God, from the Orthodox perspective, deprives none of His love--but how we relate to God, rather than how God relates to us, is the key difference.

That's considerably different than how hell is often spoken about in the West; which is generally viewed as some kind of deprivation of God, either in the sense of a literal pit of torment where people are literally tortured totally outside of God's presence; or as metaphorical descriptions. C.S. Lewis describes hell as a vast dull grey city in which people get to go on and on and on and on totally consumed by themselves--hell (says Lewis) is not about a place one goes but rather a condition one finds oneself if the root problem isn't nipped in the bud--but still noteworthy is that Lewis, in the Western tradition, still speaks of hell as deprivation and separation from God.

So, I guess to answer your question, no to a giant lava pit where wizards get thrown into.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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stevil

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You obviously didn't do your research and check out those articles I linked. That is just the tip of the ice-berge of good theories and arguements for Mind and Consciousness being fundemental.

Even mainstream science alludes to this in interpretations of Quantum physics. Many of the pioneers of QM mentioned that at the very bottom of reality is the Mind and even that electrons have a rudimentary mindlike quality.

The Mind has crept into most sciences now and material conceptions don't do just in explaining the power of self, 0f our sense of locus of control and aagency in the world that can actually change reality.
Why is the mind entirely constrained to the body?

Why can my mind only control my own body, only access my own memories?
Why can I not control the movement of electrons within a lightbulb, just by willing it to happen?
But why can I control neurotransmitters in my own brain, why can I send signals to my own muscles and get my own limbs to move?
Why can I not will someone else's limbs to move, just by thinking about it with my mind?

Why, when people are dead, do their minds not stick around, and continue to move their bodies?

It seems highly suspicious that the mind can only control the body of the single person that possesses the brain.
Its almost as if the mind is the functioning of the brain.
 
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Larniavc

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But for the righteous love is wonderful, but for the wicked love is terrible.
So having to exist with a world with God in it is Heaven for Christians but Hell of others (but the same place from a different perspective). Is that like the place with people with the really long spoons?

So where is the impetus to believe in God if there is no hell?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So having to exist with a world with God in it is Heaven for Christians but Hell of others (but the same place from a different perspective). Is that like the place with people with the really long spoons?

That's a good comparison, yes. If the goal is the total re-humanization of humanity, bearing and reflecting the fullness of the Divine Goodness, harmoniously with, in, and toward the whole of the good creation--then ultimately that means recognizing the deep wrongness that presently exists, and that deep wrongness is not something I [only] see externally to myself, but chiefly within myself--then I need to be changed. The evil I see in the world isn't "because of those bad people over there", it's this bad person right here that I see when I look in the mirror. The chief error of malice and dysfunction int he world lay in me. And therefore something needs to change me, and it's not--and it can't--be myself because I am that which is, in some sense, a slave to myself. I am a slave to me, and there needs to be a radical breaking of those chains; to enter into a new kind of way of being human and doing humanity. One which, again, reflects and bears the fullness of the Divine Goodness.

Thus the transformation, from the old order to the new, is going to mean that rather than existing in antagonism toward the Divine Goodness; there is an inhabiting of, partnership with, and a flourishing from that Divine Goodness.

So when all is said and done, I can either be part of that eschatological and teleological good--the total flourishing of a good creation and abundance of life (to go biblical, "new heavens and new earth"); or I can not.

I could, on the contrary, deny my own humanity, reject all that is good and lovely, and thus collaborate with my own progressive self-dehumanization, collaborate with death, collaborate with--well, hell.

Or perhaps we can just put it this way: If I am at a party with a bunch of people I hate, I'm probably not going to have a good time.

So where is the impetus to believe in God if there is no hell?

If you're looking for a kind of philosophical inquiry into faith-based epistemology, I don't got an answer going down that route.

Rather I'd put it this way: what's the impetus to loving your spouse, or children, or friend if there is no threat of punishment if you don't, nor promise of great personal benefit to you? The impetus to love, I would think, would be the love itself. There is an intrinsic goodness to love, that is worthy all on its own apart from external coercion.

I'd actually go so far as to say that, there is no impetus to believe in God--apart from faith. Which, I realize, is going to sound really tautological. But my point is that God isn't going to be appealing unless something about us changes, and the very orientations of our heart, mind, or even our soul aren't radically re-adjusted to be God-ward rather than self-ward. Then God is unappealing.

"Take up your cross" isn't exactly an appealing thing to say to people. So I'd argue something has to happen in which the ugly is recognized as beautiful. The message of the cross, wrote St. Paul, is foolishness.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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stevil

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That's a good comparison, yes. If the goal is the total re-humanization of humanity, bearing and reflecting the fullness of the Divine Goodness, harmoniously with, in, and toward the whole of the good creation--then ultimately that means recognizing the deep wrongness that presently exists, and that deep wrongness is not something I [only] see externally to myself, but chiefly within myself--then I need to be changed. The evil I see in the world isn't "because of those bad people over there", it's this bad person right here that I see when I look in the mirror. The chief error of malice and dysfunction int he world lay in me. And therefore something needs to change me, and it's not--and it can't--be myself because I am that which is, in some sense, a slave to myself. I am a slave to me, and there needs to be a radical breaking of those chains; to enter into a new kind of way of being human and doing humanity. One which, again, reflects and bears the fullness of the Divine Goodness.
This is so cringey. This insistance of telling people they are not worthy is one of the most worst things about Christianity (IMO)
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is so cringey. This insistance of telling people they are not worthy is one of the most worst things about Christianity (IMO)

Well the alternative hasn't been looking to great, in my estimation. The alternative to what I'm talking about is how we got someone like Donald Trump into the White House.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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stevevw

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Why is the mind entirely constrained to the body?
I am not sure that this is the case. I mean how do you even measure this. What actual measure proves the mind is entirely contained in the physical brain.
Why can my mind only control my own body, only access my own memories?
The mind can control much more than your body. Any concept that may restructure the world comes from the mind, not natureand is controlling the world and objective reality.

The fact that memories can come back and be just as real as the original experience shows that those memories are not fixed by time and space. You can give someone a new set of memories which will change their reality. We can change memories in an instant by knowledge. Suddenly what was accepted fact and reality is changed into new facts and reality with a simple piece of information.

Memories being one aspect of how the mind can defy time and space and behave very similar to the quantum world makes me think this is no some coincident.
Why can I not control the movement of electrons within a lightbulb, just by willing it to happen?
Perhaps we have not worked that one out. Perhaps that is not how it works. I mean though the mind we have made the light bulb. Nature didn't we did. It was the mind utilizing nature to create something that has a physical effect on reality and changes it.

Some interpretations of QM show that the observer is what creates reality. So that in itself points to some connection. We may just not understand well how that all works. I mean we have a common saying we have known for years which says "Mind over Matter'. So we know theres an influence of out Minds over the reality we live in.
But why can I control neurotransmitters in my own brain, why can I send signals to my own muscles and get my own limbs to move?
Why can I not will someone else's limbs to move, just by thinking about it with my mind?
That your mind controls your body is just how humans work. Your brain is physically connected to the nerves that control your body just like the connections within a computer. But what we want to know is why we should also have these experiences attached which connections and nerve signals cannot produce themselves. Why is it we experience anything that feels like something. Thats the Hard question.

Its that ''experience' of pain, joy, awe, exhileration, that is transferable from one person to another. We can cause others to feel our experiences. We can bring that thinking and feeling back and they can instantly travel across long distances where others can experience the same thing. We can know that others experience that same pain or feeling and be entangled in that experience of other and that alone is difficult to explain in material terms.
Why, when people are dead, do their minds not stick around, and continue to move their bodies?
Thats because the body is a physical vessel for the mind and if the body dies (the mechanical processes have stopped like the heart) then the vessel becomes useless. Its a bit like a radio, if the radio reciever breaks (the wiring) then the signal can not longer be transmitted.

But we do have many people who have experiences some sort of consciousness beyond their dead bodies. Or beyond their dead brains or compromised brains.
It seems highly suspicious that the mind can only control the body of the single person that possesses the brain.
Its almost as if the mind is the functioning of the brain.
Thats because you only seeing a limited possibility of how the Mind can control reality. That the mind is contained within the body and also connected physically to move the body doesn't mean that the Mind is limited to the body.

Just like a radio recieve and transmitter it may be that to tap into consciousness we as humans need the body and brain as the reciever and transmitter. But there are two seperate things going on here.

One is the wiring that runs the physical aparatus (the brain and nervious system and the rest) just like a robot. The other is the sensations, 'what it feels like' to be something. Just like a computer wires, ecectrical signals, transmitters and recievers should not feel like anything as they are just material operations. A robot doesn't feel like anything.

So thats the aspect we are talking about that can move beyond the physical and be transmitted one to another without any limitations on its movement through time and space that we need to understand as to why this happens.

Its more than just the material explanations like 'its because of some survival benefit' because this is entirely inadequate an explanation. It doesn;t begin to explain the complex ways the mind can influence reality.
 
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stevil

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The mind can control much more than your body.
There is absolutely no evidence of this.
The fact that memories can come back and be just as real as the original experience shows that those memories are not fixed by time and space.
Memories are stored in the brain. LOL.
You can give someone a new set of memories which will change their reality. We can change memories in an instant by knowledge. Suddenly what was accepted fact and reality is changed into new facts and reality with a simple piece of information.
Um, seems you've conflated memories with facts based on knew knowledge.

Perhaps we have not worked that one out. Perhaps that is not how it works.
Exactly. as far as we know the mind is simply a function of the brain, the brain can send signals to the muscles and make the body move. The mind cannot magically send signals to a lightbulb, or someone else's brain or body.
That your mind controls your body is just how humans work.
It's how brains work. Brains control the body.
Your brain is physically connected to the nerves that control your body just like the connections within a computer.
Voila, you are getting it now.
Thats because the body is a physical vessel for the mind and if the body dies (the mechanical processes have stopped like the heart) then the vessel becomes useless
The mind also ceases to be as the brain stops working.
. Its a bit like a radio, if the radio reciever breaks (the wiring) then the signal can not longer be transmitted.
I'll believe you if you learn how to transmitt to someone else's brain and take over control of their body.
 
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BeyondET

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O that the Atheist would quit questioning God, and stop seeking every imaginable excuse to deny Him!

O that the Atheist who has even a miniscule belief that there might be a somewhat intelligent force behind the operations of the Cosmos, hence being somewhat of a Deist, would open their heart to see such utter complexities as the Universe, on down to the smallest known particle, all show plainly the wisdom and knowledge of an intelligent Creator.

O that the Atheist, the Deist, the Unitarian, the Agnostic, all realize there is a Holy Spirit, being part of the Godhead of Father, Son, and Spirit - and that the Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment: That the absolute Holiness of God demands the absolute justice of God, because of the absolute love of God, who gave His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for your sin, of which the wages of sin are death!

Question if you may, disbelieve if you will, but none of your surmisings will change the course of God's sovereign will, Who will perform His will despite all your unbelief and questioning. Do not debate with the LORD, for you shall lose!

Thou art a sinner, for you were born in sin, and the only way to be free from the power and the penalty of sin, is to believe upon Jesus Christ, confess your sins to Him, and repent: turn from your sins. For even if you have lived a good moral life by the worlds standards, you are still a sinner, and your denial and unbelief themselves are sin!

O that the Atheist, the Deist, the Unitarian, the Agnostic, come to know the love of God, who is reaching out this time that you might be saved! Get a KJV Bible and begin to read it, and pray mightily for wisdom to receive its truth, that the living Word, who is Jesus Christ our Saviour may awaken your hearts to salvation, that ye die not in your sins and burn in hell: for that is the lot and portion of all unbelievers, and those who embrace sin over the Saviour!

Turn now, for the door is NOW open, and Christ awaits to envelop you with His love, and fill you with His Spirit; for His blood shed on the cross has the power to cleanse you from your sins, and the gift of eternal life shall then be yours. Until you come to Jesus and take Him as the Saviour of your soul, you are pitifully lost, and beneath the dreadful wrath of a Holy God, who is Righteous, and demands Justice, for in unbelief you condemn yourself.
Pray God then, O unbeliever, that He have mercy, and grant you repentance unto life, and saving faith, that ye may believe unto eternal life.
Amen.
O that believer needs to work on patience.

Thou art alittle full of yourself with the O's, be careful don't step on His toes.
 
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stevevw

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There is absolutely no evidence of this.
Any human made concept that comes from the Mind and then changes our objective reality is something being controlled by mind. It came from the mind and its intentions good or bad have a physical effect in the world.

What I do according to my Mind can have an effect on other peoples Minds which can effect their own physical world. It all depends on how you measure the influence of MInds on the world.

But like I said there is some evidence of MInds altering things at a distance. We know its potentiall true with some interpretations of the quantum world such as the observer effect altering the wave collaspe. This have been supported experimentally. We just don't know how this works. Some studies have found this effect in the Macro world.
Memories are stored in the brain. LOL.
Yes but they are not limited to the brain or time and space. We can recall a memory and the experience that goes with it is just as real when it first happened. We have brought that experience to life again without even physically experiencing the event that caused it.

Yet its influencing physoical reality by evoking the same physical reactions on our body. So in some ways the past has come back to the present instantly which defies classical cause and effect.
Um, seems you've conflated memories with facts based on knew knowledge.
The problem is its not just about facts but the meaning and reality those facts bring which influence reality itself for us. It effects how we see ourselves and the world. Which more or less points to our Minds being the creator of that world.

If for example we discover something that proves a fact wrong then all of a sudden the reality we knew according to those facts has been changed so that we have a new reality. This implies that we don't really know much as far as what reality is. Its always being updated so that gradually and sometimes pretty quickly a new reality has been created by that knowledge and the effect it has on our experiences.
Exactly. as far as we know the mind is simply a function of the brain, the brain can send signals to the muscles and make the body move. The mind cannot magically send signals to a lightbulb, or someone else's brain or body.
Your missing the point. Even within our own bodies the idea that the Mind can make a finger move is beyond explanation that wires and electrical signals or any behaviour in nature, Usually its a case of the mechanics and theres no control from a Mind.

But in the case of conscious beings the Mind intervenes and moves the physical. If there was no Mind which is possible say in a robot or maybe a zombie without consciousness that just operated on its programmed imput would be subject completely by that imput and fixed nature. They could do everything a conscious human can do except they would not have a Mind that controlled their physical bodies or the world around them.

So the Mind is another dimension beyond the physical reactions and impulses. It can control these functions and even provoke the same reactions at an instant even if there was no natural reason to do so. It can even change the course of what would be a natural reaction and divert it to something the Mind has chosen rather than be subject to the external forces.
It's how brains work. Brains control the body.
But thats the problem. A robot that was built like a human with all the brain wiring in place could not generate the Mind that could then allow it to be autonomous or experience the feelings that go along with this like pain, hunger or fear or aggression which causes us to move our bodies. It needs to be programmed by a Mind to do so.
Voila, you are getting it now.
Yes but just like a computer there is not experience with those brain signals. Its just mechanical reactive behaviour. There is no Mind sensations or feelings that go with it. Why is it that we 'feel like something' at all when purely physical and mechanical operations do not have this quality by their very nature.
The mind also ceases to be as the brain stops working.
Actually there have been studies that show this is not the case. For example when clinically dead or unconscious or when the brain is shutting down or compromised people still get realistic and vivid consciousness.

Theres even been experiments where the brain is connected to machines during clinical death or unconsciousness that shows spikes well after death in the regions of the brain for conscious experiences such as in the memory region.
I'll believe you if you learn how to transmitt to someone else's brain and take over control of their body.
This ios silly. For one it may not be that this can happen because there are limits ie the holder of the Mind can overide such interference obviously because its their Mind. It may be that the influence is more subtle where its the plantation of thoughts that lead to that influence over the body.

We know this with how peoples minds change be changed simply by planting a seed of thought. There are a lot of little peices of evidence we have not fully understood like intuition, coincidental thinking, blindsight, dejavu ect which seems to point to Minds being connected beyond the limits of time and space.

Like I said even QM intepretations support this. So I wouldn't be making such big claims. First we need to understand what it is we are looking for and then maybe the evidence is already there but we are loioking in the wrong place because of biased worldviews and paradigm thinking that excludes this kind of evidnece to begin with.

Which by the way is caused by the MInd epistemically in that the paradigm chosen is influences by subjective thinking in what it chooses and how it measures reality as opposed to other ways of knowling. Controlled by the MInd stipulating that we should see reality that way and not something based in objective fact beyond the Mind.
 
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stevil

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What I do according to my Mind can have an effect on other peoples Minds which can effect their own physical world.
We know you cannot do mind control over someone else. You cannot alter reality by just thinking it.
But like I said there is some evidence of MInds altering things at a distance. We know its potentiall true with some interpretations of the quantum world such as the observer effect altering the wave collaspe.
The collapse of the waveforms doesn't not need a mind. An apparatus that takes measurements is enough.
The mind cannot control the collapse, it cannot decide to make the collapse and it cannot make the collapse happen in a non predictable way.


Yes but they are not limited to the brain or time and space. We can recall a memory and the experience that goes with it is just as real when it first happened.
Our brains access memories that are stored in long term memory and bring to the forefront. It is a simple process. We do this with computers all the time.
If for example we discover something that proves a fact wrong then all of a sudden the reality we knew according to those facts has been changed so that we have a new reality.
Oh boy, this is weird. It's certainly not science.

Your missing the point. Even within our own bodies the idea that the Mind can make a finger move is beyond explanation that wires and electrical signals or any behaviour in nature, Usually its a case of the mechanics and theres no control from a Mind.
We know exactly how this happens, look up neural networks, synapis, neurotransmitters, chemical receptors, muscles, amino acids. Hopefully you'll have fun educating yourself.
But in the case of conscious beings the Mind intervenes and moves the physical. If there was no Mind which is possible say in a robot or maybe a zombie without consciousness that just operated on its programmed imput would be subject completely by that imput and fixed nature. They could do everything a conscious human can do except they would not have a Mind that controlled their physical bodies or the world around them.
I wouldn't discount us being able to create artificial consciousness in robots. There is nothing special about life, no magical spark, we are just organic based machines.
This ios silly. For one it may not be that this can happen because there are limits ie the holder of the Mind can overide such interference obviously because its their Mind. It may be that the influence is more subtle where its the plantation of thoughts that lead to that influence over the body.
You're just making stuff up on the fly. Excuses based on wishful thinking.
 
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stevevw

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We know you cannot do mind control over someone else. You cannot alter reality by just thinking it.
I depends how you look at it 'literally'. We know that our outlook can influence how we see the world as being a positive or negative place.

We can influence other peoples thinking to be positive or negative and thus change their perspective of things which includes how they see and interact with the physical world thus influencing it. Just in a different way to the scientific paradigm but just as powerful as an influence.
The collapse of the waveforms doesn't not need a mind. An apparatus that takes measurements is enough.
The mind cannot control the collapse, it cannot decide to make the collapse and it cannot make the collapse happen in a non predictable way.
I don' think this is established fact but rather just another interpretation. Stapp reckons that we should not regard the measuring device any differently to the quantum world and this is part of it. So the measuring aparatus is also decohering as a result of observation.

So it makes sense that the only different aspect introduced into the equation is the Mind of the observer which directly can observe the behaviour at the quantum level and controls what questions we ask about reality and therefore creates reality. The Mind being a different kind of stuff than the physical world.
Our brains access memories that are stored in long term memory and bring to the forefront. It is a simple process. We do this with computers all the time.
But the computers don't have a real physical experience with feelings that then influence the physical world. We may react and turn the computer off as a result of our experience.

What then, can the computer turn itself back on without a mind. Its now dead to the world, unable to do anything, process or react. Thats the difference and that difference needs to be accounted for in the equation of how reality works.
Oh boy, this is weird. It's certainly not science.
Yes it is. When we thought that the world was flat or people thought the world was just their local environment this was the reality and this influenced everything. Or we believed that humans were conditioned by outside conditions in behaviour until we discovered a whole inner world of influence that is actually the root of behaviour.

We believed it was fact according to the current science. Then science has gradually shown that these facts and reality was an illusion.

We have continued to do that updating reality into a new reality. In 100 years from now it may be that we have had a total paradigm shift in understanding where we have discovered some influence from consciousness beyond the brain and our understanding of reality will change again.

Just like it did from Classical physics to quantum physics where we thought fundemental reality were like little particles bouncing off each other when in fact there is no particles at all but enegy waves of potential thus undermining the materialist idea that reality is matter.
We know exactly how this happens, look up neural networks, synapis, neurotransmitters, chemical receptors, muscles, amino acids. Hopefully you'll have fun educating yourself.
I already have studies this. The problem is even if we completely mapped out the entire workings of the brain and could correlate every experience of colours, joy, stimulation of art and music and the awe of a sunset or the night sky we would still not account for that qualitative experience by the brain processes. In none of those processes do we find pain, joy or the experience of red.

The famous thought experiment of Colourblind Mary by Frank Jackson explains this. Mary who was a neuroscientist was colourblind and had never experienced colours. She knew all the technical data about the brain processes and light waves.

One day Mary woke up and able to percieve colours and had her first experience of the colour red. We could say Mary has gained new knowledge about reality (phenomenal knowledge) that her technical information could not give her.

So all experiences reveal something about reality that the material and mechanical measures cannot tell us and its as real as any object and in fact more real as its the only direct knowledge we have of reality because the rest is 3rd person assumptions.
I wouldn't discount us being able to create artificial consciousness in robots. There is nothing special about life, no magical spark, we are just organic based machines.
Talk about fantasy. I don't think we even know what questions to ask about how to create consciousness let alone just make it happen by more and more technical information. Your more or less supporting the idea of the ghost in the machine or the magic genie bottle.

That somehow a bunch of wires and mental combined the right way can produce this quality stuff that is not in the wires and mental itself. Hey presto consciousness. Like its a secondary by product that is not really necessary but comes along for the ride. I think consciousness is way more involved than that.
You're just making stuff up on the fly. Excuses based on wishful thinking.
How is that making stuff up when all I am doing is dispelling your fallacy that because we cannot transmit evidence for consciousness beyond the brain that this disproves consciousness beyond brain by offering other possibilities. At this stage

I think the reasonable thing to say is all possibilities are on the table. Considering the fact that to come up with a theory of consciousness requires something beyond the current paradigm of thinking I would not be so confident that the evidence will require some different kind of support than cause and effect within the space and time reality.
 
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Larniavc

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that means recognizing the deep wrongness that presently exists,
But there is also a deep goodness that exists. And when I look in that mirror I see it in me. It’s not perfection but perfection cannot exist.

I think that is where Christians differ from most people. My self as a non Christian does not see myself as a sinner in the metaphysical sense.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But there is also a deep goodness that exists. And when I look in that mirror I see it in me. It’s not perfection but perfection cannot exist.

I think that is where Christians differ from most people. My self as a non Christian does not see myself as a sinner in the metaphysical sense.

And I'm not going to reject that deep goodness, intrinsic to the historic and orthodox Christian perspective is the innate and intrinsic goodness of all creation. Being a human being is a good thing. So to talk about "re-humanization" that assumes that being human is a good thing; the problem is the ways that--from a Christian perspective--we have lost our humanity. That there is something un-human and de-humanizing tangled up in our present humanity; we need a re-humanization--because the alternative is de-humanization.

Of course that de-humanizing aspect, that un-human element, I don't think that can be argued for on a purely philosophical, or even moral grounds; I think it presupposes certain theological ideas that, if someone isn't a Christian, they'd see no reason to agree to or even seriously entertain.

I'm sure it does sound, as @stevil said, "cringey". At the very least it's not appealing, it doesn't sound good. Of course my counter to that is bad news never sounds good or appealing, hearing from a doctor that one is sick doesn't exactly make someone happy; and it is quite naturally human of all of us to not want to be told we're wrong, or that something is wrong about us. Not even speaking metaphysically here, there is a kind of natural inclination each of us has toward our own biases, we like that which confirms our biases and we tend to push back against that which goes against that. So, quite naturally, nobody is going to like hearing that, and it's going to sound bad, and it's going to be unappealing, and it's going to even be offensive. But from the perspective I hold--and I'm not expecting you or any non-Christian to take my perspective here--that natural inclination and rejection of hearing something like we are, of ourselves, in a state of deep wrongness, is part of that wrongness.

To offer a kind of example, you and I would both agree that the owning of other human beings is wrong; and that owning people and forcing them to work, and depriving them of basic autonomy and the right to flourish for themselves is a bad thing. The slave-owner, however, if told that it's wrong, is going to react in a very different way than if you and I are just talking about it. The slave-owner doesn't want to be wrong, he wants to be right, he wants his slave-owning to be a good thing, a right thing, and that he is entirely justified in his ownership of human beings--and he'll probably provide all manner of arguments as to why what he is doing is perfectly okay, and even good.

Or consider the multitude of political arguments that happen, even right here on this forum. How often does saying that something is wrong, or unethical, or harmful receive a strong response of opposition. I mean I probably don't even need to give examples--I think most of us recognize that we naturally like to think of ourselves as right, as good, and that our ways of doing, thinking, feeling, etc are at least basically right.

The Christian position, though, is that on some level nobody is actually right, we're all actually quite wrong. It's not really about being perfect or imperfect; but rather than the natural inclination bends inward. We don't even need to talk about great big moral categories such as good and evil; we can talk about it in simpler ways: I am, naturally, more interested in my own needs, desires, and appetites than I am someone else's. I am more keenly aware of when I'm hungry, so I'll think about how to feed myself instinctively--but we don't have an equal concern for someone else's hunger. It's not that we have all these malicious thoughts, like "haha, I'm feeding myself while this person goes hungry", it's more that we may not even think about how others are hungry; and it's not that we don't when we do think about it, feel empathy, or go out of our way to help someone out. But, at the end of the day, we have the natural inclination to place ourselves at the top of a hierarchy of needs.

To which, however, the question can be asked: Is that wrong? Is it wrong that I am more interested in my own needs than others? After all, every creature has a built-in need for survival. It's in our genes--survive, survive and pass on our genes.

But the Christian answer to that is, why, yeah, it is a problem. Not the desire to survive, not the taking care of yourself part; but rather than our basic way of being is, in some sense, determined by two factors: The threat of death and the inwardly bent desire. The two go, in some way, hand-in-hand. Death creates a problem: We all need to compete for survival, and so if it comes down to whether I live and you die; or you live and I die--just about everything in me is going to prioritize myself over you.

That, that is the wrongness. It's not just the internal wrongness; but also the external wrongness. Death itself is a wrongness that exists; our own mortality drives us in ways which can often mean we act in terrible ways. And because we create hierarchies, often a hierarchy of myself, my offspring, my family, my kin, my tribe, my community, my nation, etc it breeds tremendous amounts of conflict.

There is a wrongness in ourselves, a wrongness in the world at large; one that is depriving the world of its beauty, depriving us of our full humanity; that creates conflict, creates discord, that creates suffering. Christians call it sin, but that word just means error, wrongness, or missing the mark. There's something wrong, my way of being human just isn't right. Not that there is no goodness or beauty; but that the goodness and beauty that is there is dulled, lessened, obscured.

This isn't meant to convince anyone of anything, but merely trying to unpack religious ideas that are often clothed up in a familiar jargon.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Larniavc

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Death itself is a wrongness that exists; our own mortality drives us in ways which can often mean we act in terrible ways.
This is where I think we fundamentally differ. Everything winds down, entropy universally goes up, even fundamental particles decay given enough time. That's part of existence. For us to be here there must be energy gradients trying to equalise. Wherefor death is not an error in the system but a manifestation of what makes the system possible.
 
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stevevw

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Temperature is not a "surface view" or "reflection". Temperature is the measure of the mean energy per particle.

Particles are discrete quanta of fields that can be detected and measured. They are not reflections or surfaces of anything.

Colors are either (1) the specific wavelength of a photon, or (2) the collective emission, transmission, or reflective spectrum from an object as interpreted by a detector (whether a filter+CCD or the retina+brain or otherwise).

Time is one of the coordinates of spacetime and intrinsic to physics.

As for shapes, see topology and geometry.
If for example we were in a simulation then what we sense and percieve would be just a program which caused us to percieve and sense this way. This would be the surface reflection an interface that we are programmed into and there would be a deeper reality we were not able to percieve.

In the same way what we sense and percieve about objective reality may just be an interface from which we exist and there is some deeper more fundemental reality behind this.

Such as with QM in that the macro world is just an interface for quanta which is not actually the solid stuff we percieve but waves of potentiality. An object is not actually solid but mostly empty space with energy waves of resistence.

You can describe the specific wavelengths pf photons and the colour spectrum they are equal to and detect that with a machine but that can never capture the experience of colour. This can never be measured without going to the first hand perience of the observer.

So there is this deeper reality through experience which transcends the physical world which is just as real if not more real that what we sense and percieve in the objective world.
 
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Hans Blaster

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If for example we were in a simulation then what we sense and percieve would be just a program which caused us to percieve and sense this way. This would be the surface reflection an interface that we are programmed into and there would be a deeper reality we were not able to percieve.
I can do an experiment to measure speed distribution of the molecules in the air. If this is a simulation (a silly notion to be clear), it is one with the individual atoms simulated. I've filled the values of the temperature in a simulation with a temperature, I've never simulated the positions and momenta of all of the particles in a small volume.
In the same way what we sense and percieve about objective reality may just be an interface from which we exist and there is some deeper more fundemental reality behind this.

Such as with QM in that the macro world is just an interface for quanta which is not actually the solid stuff we percieve but waves of potentiality. An object is not actually solid but mostly empty space with energy waves of resistence.

That's not physics, but I don't know what it is. Decline to respond.
You can describe the specific wavelengths pf photons and the colour spectrum they are equal to and detect that with a machine but that can never capture the experience of colour. This can never be measured without going to the first hand perience of the observer.
This is the psychology of perception, not physics. No interest.
So there is this deeper reality through experience which transcends the physical world which is just as real if not more real that what we sense and percieve in the objective world.
I am not engaging in any transcendent metaphysics. Actual physics or nothing.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is where I think we fundamentally differ. Everything winds down, entropy universally goes up, even fundamental particles decay given enough time. That's part of existence. For us to be here there must be energy gradients trying to equalise. Wherefor death is not an error in the system but a manifestation of what makes the system possible.

I think that given our ability to observe the universe that's a fair assessment. I think that position is quite rational.

The spanner in the works, to me, however, is that we recognize deep loss when someone dies. And I don't think any amount of rationalization can change the reality that death brings loss.

I've been re-watching Star Trek the Next Generation, I recently watched the episode where Data is on trial over whether he is a sentient life form or not. At one point Data mentions that his existence adds something to the substance of the universe, were he to cease to function--to die--something unique would be lost.

The universe is a richer place because you exist in it, because I exist in it, because my dog exists in it, because this planet exists. This isn't just a human or earth centric idea of our importance (over anything else); the same is true of any other life that is out there. Every star, every sunset on a distant world in another galaxy.

Existence is meaningful--its meaningful of itself. I do not believe that transience is how meaning is derived, it is existence itself that is meaningful. That there is something, rather than nothing, is itself good. So whether we speak of minute things such as the individual electrons in an atom, or the grand everything that is the universe; to be is a wonderful thing. There can be, therefore, no greater wrongness than to be, and then to not be. That there is no such thing as a unicorn, of course, is less than if unicorns did exist; but if unicorns did exist, and then ceased; such would be a loss of something wonderful. I merely use unicorns here as an example to introduce the idea of mere non-existence to the loss of existence.

We can rationally look and see how the event that wiped out the non-avian dinosaurs led the way for the evolution of new life--such as ourselves; and thus we can speak of our existence as made possible because of the annihilation of the non-avian dinosaurs. And yet, knowing that such creatures existed, and do no longer, is still a loss--something is lost. There is a substance of the universe that no longer exists, part of the beauty of the universe has been erased.

We can add another element: Memory. As rational creatures we can remember what was lost, or we can discover something, like by-gone civilizations or the non-avian dinosaurs; the memory of these things embedded in stone and which we learn, and forms part of our conscious experience. Yet, in this entropic universe memory can't survive--even the good of memory fades. One day, you will probably be forgotten. One day, humanity will be forgotten. One day earth will be forgotten. One day the sun will be forgotten. Eventually every star, every world, everything will be forgotten--the universe expanding ever onward for trillions of years. Fading into a great big empty dark, where even the fundamental forces break down--and entropy wins.

I recognize the rational of what I observe. But should I like it? And moreso, should I, when confronted with the great empty dark of nothing embrace a kind of positive nihilism? Or should I, instead, recall the words of Dylan Thomas,

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Larniavc

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The spanner in the works, to me, however, is that we recognize deep loss when someone dies. And I don't think any amount of rationalization can change the reality that death brings loss.
I don't see this as inconsistent with my previous post?
Existence is meaningful
Agreed.
But should I like it?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not too keen on myself and others dying in any way. But my point was about death not being a metaphysical consequence of supernatural interference.
 
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