Neutering God for Women's Rights

Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors

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Holy Spirit incarnated God as a man (Son Jesus). He the Father became incarnated as the Son.
Do you want to contest those two statements. It seems like we pretty well must hold to them to be true to Scripture. But all this is rather a GREAT MYSTERY, how the persons of the God-head relate to each other. Agreed?

GOD IS A SPIRIT (the Spirit of Love and Truth) and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24 and 23.) Please notice how we are to refer to God - true worshippers worship THE FATHER ...
Perhaps the fact spirit and truth seem to be separate here means one should more emphasize that the spirit is THE SPIRIT OF LOVE AND LOVING, to be pursued in truth?

There are many spirits in the world, so God is not just any spirit, but the Spirit of True Love. I would suggest that the Holy Spirit is based in the image of all true love, male and female. Hence it makes sense to think of the bride of Christ, the church, as being female. (Brides are always female, unless one is big into perversion already.)
And further I would suggest that femaleness is to be found based in the actual femaleness of actual women.
(Just like the maleness of God incarnate - who the Holy Spirit preceedeth from- is found in the Son Jesus.)

So there is Christ on the one hand, the Son of the Father, and the workings OF GOD are the Holy Spirit, HIS LOVE directed toward the femaleness of "members" in the church. (Less "comely" things being given "more abundant honor." I. Cor 12)

I agree with much of what you are saying on the basis of scripture & type ( I totally agree with referring to God As Father )
So that settles the "type" so to speak .
Honestly, I feel what this all boils down is the lack of acknowledgement that Men & Women were created Both in the Image of God , one being the Head ( Male) but not Superior In the things of God , He Approves fully of Both. They Both carry the Holy Spirit ( Gods Spirit)
That being said both Christ living within & new creatures (making them Equal Heirs) they Both may have High callings & anointings in the Kingdom of God regardless of gender . Period . (SAVE shepherding)
Scripture proves that.
Some denominational viewpoints try to sweep that under the rug .

Go on The Word of God , over Mans or Woman's word .

When We Know who we are in Christ
We realize that " we" Men & Women are One in Christ .
 
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Linet Kihonge

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Why should scripture justify why man came first? Because man came first means the Bible was maligned in creating Eve Second. If the Bible says something, it doesn't say it out of prejudice it just says what it says.

Assuming I would like to fly to London and the government requires that I have a visa that describes my purpose of going there. Would it be wrong if I sneaked through the border and have myself arrested for that? No, it's the law. Is the government racist or does it discriminate people who sneak through the border? No. Therefore, if the will of the father is to have a man in the leadership of the Church, He says it because it's the law. I'm not saying because I think women are weaker or less capable but It's written so. When it comes to applying it, people become very defensive and aggressive about it. Unless women preachers/pastors think that they could be wrong, they will do what they want (don't give a darn on what compelled them).
 
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Julie.S

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You merely using the word 'rights' shows me that your 'opinion' is based more on a secular basis than what we are offered in the Bible. Rights aren't mentioned in the Bible.

Women are not 'equal' to men in any 'way, shape or form'. To infer such is to ignore the 'obvious differences' between women and men. If you 'don't' know or understand the differences, well, I'll leave it up to someone else to explain them to you.

Women, according to the Bible, are not entitled to be 'church leaders' in any capacity. Not one mention of women being 'entitled'.

But there IS scripture that 'states' that women cannot be pastors or 'church leaders'. Unless you believe that a 'woman' can be the husband of one wife, it is perfectly clearly offered what a 'bishop MUST be'.

And Paul's offering more than once that women are to remain 'silent' in the 'church' pretty much makes it 'impossible' for a woman to be a 'church leader' according to God's Word. And you 'do not' have any scripture that offers any other conclusion for it does not exist. You see, I have 'read' the Bible and what you say exists does not.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 (KJV)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

These scripture have already been quoted on the topic over and over. You either accept it or deny it. Interpretation is not necessary for the words couldn't be offered any more clearly. Most KNOW what they mean and simply accept it as offered. Some insist that they 'aren't really the truth' and then come up with some of the most inane examples, of 'why' they aren't the truth, imaginable. But when one compares inane examples to the 'truth', it becomes apparent rather quickly that 'wishful thinking' is not really the 'truth' now is it?

Now, I have 'shown' you scripture that when taken 'as offered' makes it perfectly clear that women 'cannot' be 'church leaders'. If they are to remain 'silent in the church' then how do you suppose they are going to function as 'church leaders'?

Now, you show US scripture that states that women 'can' be 'church leaders'. Scripture. Funny, but no matter how hard you try, it is an impossible task for no such scripture exists.

And by speaking as you have spoken, you have damaged your credibility to the point that I doubt that there is much or anything you have to offer that I can accept. We are to shun 'false prophets' and that is exactly what you are modeling yourself to be.

Blessings,

MEC

Blessings,

MEC
I will be honest when I see stuff like this I sometimes wonder as a woman why I should be happy in my life.

Then I remember why I should be happy. I am a strong individual who has overcome much that some woman or man just crumble under.

It is when people use this stuff as a way to hurt or make women feel bad that it is a problem.

The Bible it right indeed but it seems over time that other factors have come into play.

I have said my peace and now I go.

Good day to all.
 
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ScottA

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The point has been made that God is MALE, and only MALE. It seems that some people think that questioning this fact is almost blasphemous. It also seems that some people think that because God is male and because he created Adam before Eve, both these things are proof that he cannot and does not call women to be Ministers in church. Someone - it may have been you - said that the Minister is male and the entire church congregation is female (even if it contains men). It was said that it has to be this way because this reflects the picture of Christ and his church.

This is wrong on a number of counts.
You are repeating yourself...and can't even do it without saying "God is male."
i) God is not only and exclusively male - I've asked how people define maleness and had no answer.
He is Spirit. He is also assigned female characteristics; giving birth and creating new life, nurturing. He is described as caring for his creation as a mother cares for her young, and in the same way that a mother cannot forget her young.
It's pretty simple. God is defined as male by God...and He has defined what male is.
ii) God created men and women in his image.
You misunderstand. God did not create humanity male and female because He is both - but because "the two shall become one." ... This is a BIG subject, even a mystery, and you would do well to study it more. In essence, the potential for evil (like the wo-men) was taken out of God...and what will return to Him will be without "wo."
iii) I have never met anyone else who says that a Minister HAS to be male, and that a congregation is female, because this represents the picture of Christ and his church. This means that the Minister/Priest/Pastor represents Jesus; that when you go to church on a Sunday, that is Jesus standing there at the front; that if the Minister has a cold or is unwell, forgets part of the service, stumbles in his sermon, that is Jesus who has done those things. I don't believe that any Minister would claim to represent Jesus. Priests aren't perfect; Jesus is. Priests aren't infallible or eternal; Jesus is. Humans aren't priests forever, they retire, resign or move on; Jesus was, is and always will be priest and head of his church.
Again, you misunderstand. The idea was not given by me, but is given in the scriptures by the example of Christ. But don't further misunderstand (as the Catholics have), the minister is not Jesus...but merely portrays Him - not to the body, but to the unsaved, lest we cause some to stumble. And that does not mean all ministry, but merely that of the Head. On the contrary, all the church, are ministers of the gospel of Christ.
 
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Strong in Him

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You are repeating yourself...and can't even do it without saying "God is male."

I'm repeating myself because people aren't listening.
God is Spirit.
God is also a personal God and wants us to be in a relationship with God. We cannot call a personal God "it", nor can we keep saying "he/she" or "God" - see how clumsy that previous sentence looked when I repeated the word "God" instead of "him". Because of this, we have to say either "he" or "she", and as Scripture uses "he" and refers to God as Father, King and Lord; we do the same.
But God is Spirit - and no one has yet explained to me how Spirit can have a gender. When we point out that the word use for the Holy Spirit is feminine, people are quick to say that that is only a word. It may be used because the Spirit has feminine characteristics, like being responsible for new life, but it does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is female. So why insist that God, who is Spirit, is male?

It's pretty simple. God is defined as male by God...and He has defined what male is.

No. God has described himself using male nouns - "he" "father" and so on.
Where has he defined what male is?
God created Adam with certain body parts, if you'll pardon the expression. That is what God defined as a man. There are other physical differences, like an Adam's apple, testosterone etc, and certain "male" characteristics - I'm sure you've heard it said that men do .... or can't do ..... I know for a fact that if I relied on the men in my family to organise family occasions, I'd never see them or my nephews.

How does any of this describe, reflect or define who God is?
How do you identify that a Spirit is MALE?

You misunderstand. God did not create humanity male and female because He is both - but because "the two shall become one." ... This is a BIG subject, even a mystery, and you would do well to study it more.

How can I study something that's not Scriptural?
"The two shall become one" is a Scriptural phrase that is used about, and in relation to, marriage.
Some people don't marry. A woman who is single and remains single all her life - by choice or otherwise - will never be one, physically, with a man. A man who is single, as were the apostle Paul, and Jesus, is not one, physically, with a woman.
Both men and women were created in the image of God.

In essence, the potential for evil (like the wo-men) was taken out of God...and what will return to Him will be without "wo."

?? And Scripture says this - where?

Again, you misunderstand. The idea was not given by me, but is given in the scriptures by the example of Christ.

No it isn't.
You want to follow Christ's example in the treatment of women? Good.
In the male dominated society of his time, where women were not valued, were not allowed to learn and were unreliable witnesses; Christ healed, taught and forgave them, allowed them to sit at his feet and learn from him, and CHOSE a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection. Women could be easily divorced, which would have resulted in loss of home and income, yet Jesus reminded men that women were created by God and marriage was his plan.
Jesus revealed himself as the Messiah while talking to a woman, he commended another for her faith and yet another for her act of selfless devotion; using all her pension to buy perfume and then pour it onto his feet. Jesus allowed women to support him financially. He even allowed himself to be made ceremonially unclean because of a woman - when the woman with the issue of blood touched his clothes. Not only that, he healed her and called her "daughter".

THAT is how Jesus treated women. They were the underdogs, ignored, taken for granted and had less worth than a slave. Jesus listened to, affirmed, healed, restored and taught that women had worth because they were made by God, in the image of God.

But don't further misunderstand (as the Catholics have), the minister is not Jesus...

I know, but some of the posts here seemed to imply that he was; that a Minister has to be male because Christ is male.

but merely portrays Him, not to the body, but to the unsaved,

Unbelievers should see Christ in all of us because of our character, actions and behaviour.
I've never heard any unbeliever say "look, there's a vicar; they represent Jesus". They judge a member of the clergy by their fruit. Ministers/vicars have been known to commit adultery, get divorced, steal or be guilty of child abuse; I doubt that anyone would believe that such men "represented Jesus" because they were men.

And that does not mean all ministry, but merely that of the Head. On the contrary, all the church, are ministers of the gospel of Christ.

Yes.
And Ministers who are the human leaders of local congregations are also part of the church.
 
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ScottA

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I'm repeating myself because people aren't listening.
God is Spirit.
God is also a personal God and wants us to be in a relationship with God. We cannot call a personal God "it", nor can we keep saying "he/she" or "God" - see how clumsy that previous sentence looked when I repeated the word "God" instead of "him". Because of this, we have to say either "he" or "she", and as Scripture uses "he" and refers to God as Father, King and Lord; we do the same.
But God is Spirit - and no one has yet explained to me how Spirit can have a gender. When we point out that the word use for the Holy Spirit is feminine, people are quick to say that that is only a word. It may be used because the Spirit has feminine characteristics, like being responsible for new life, but it does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is female. So why insist that God, who is Spirit, is male?
God has manifest Himself as He is (male).
 
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ScottA

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No. God has described himself using male nouns - "he" "father" and so on.
Where has he defined what male is?
God created Adam with certain body parts, if you'll pardon the expression. That is what God defined as a man. There are other physical differences, like an Adam's apple, testosterone etc, and certain "male" characteristics - I'm sure you've heard it said that men do .... or can't do ..... I know for a fact that if I relied on the men in my family to organise family occasions, I'd never see them or my nephews.

How does any of this describe, reflect or define who God is?
How do you identify that a Spirit is MALE?
God confused all language at the tower of Babel, and you are having a problem with the language used to describe God. You are speaking as a person. Nonetheless, He has manifest Himself as a male.
 
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Strong in Him

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God confused all language at the tower of Babel, and you are having a problem with the language used to describe God.

No, I am telling you how we know whether or not a person is male; some of the physical bits and characteristics that make them so. I am also asking how you attribute that to God and know that Spirit is male.
Clearly you can't answer.

Nonetheless, He has manifest Himself as a male.

He has revealed that he is Spirit. You don't seem to want to address this point.
 
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ScottA

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How can I study something that's not Scriptural?
"The two shall become one" is a Scriptural phrase that is used about, and in relation to, marriage.
Some people don't marry. A woman who is single and remains single all her life - by choice or otherwise - will never be one, physically, with a man. A man who is single, as were the apostle Paul, and Jesus, is not one, physically, with a woman.
Both men and women were created in the image of God.
The word from God is spirit, and is not about people as you have described, but is about God: the revelation of Jesus Christ. You missed the message completely.
 
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Strong in Him

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The word from God is spirit, and is not about people as you have described, but is about God: the revelation of Jesus Christ. You missed the message completely.

God is Spirit, John 4:24.
When God chose to enter his creation and be born as a human, he chose to be a male human. God is still Spirit.
 
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ScottA

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?? And Scripture says this - where?
It is not possible to debate on scripture alone - as I said, the word of God is spirit. But perhaps this will suffice:

And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” Genesis 2:23

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; 1 Corinthians 15:50
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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No, I am telling you how we know whether or not a person is male; some of the physical bits and characteristics that make them so. I am also asking how you attribute that to God and know that Spirit is male.
Clearly you can't answer.



He has revealed that he is Spirit. You don't seem to want to address this point.
The question is more about the nature of maleness, how it might apply to God, rather than how we know if a person is male. That is, you point to MALE PARTS of a human that you say are therefore the definition God has given us of "male," whereas all of Creation that comes from God has much more maleness than that only found in man.
So we get a pretty good idea of maleness from looking at nature, and that idea as it might apply to God is penetration, "penetrating the female," being able to penetrate the female. So it would seem in loving we can be said to be penetrated by God, having taken on the Holy Spirit of God. (God is a Spirit, that spirit, not just any or all spirit as you suggest with your misquoting of John 4:24. I pointed this out to you already, but you seem not to have noticed.)

I have previously suggested how maleness relates to THE SPIRIT OF GOD which is loving. To quote myself:
" 'MALE-AND-FEMALE,' is the image of God, the God of Love and Loving.
And loving mankind, men and woman loving, are then embodying God. In minds, hearts, and especially genitals (souls).
"

There is the LOVING image, and the penetrating of earthly existence by the male Christ, and the general penetration by God of his Creation where there is an open heart for true love.
The love of his church THE BRIDE by Christ the manGod is the exemplar of this.

OPEN YOUR HEART FOR TRUE LOVE
 
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ScottA

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No it isn't.
You want to follow Christ's example in the treatment of women? Good.
In the male dominated society of his time, where women were not valued, were not allowed to learn and were unreliable witnesses; Christ healed, taught and forgave them, allowed them to sit at his feet and learn from him, and CHOSE a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection. Women could be easily divorced, which would have resulted in loss of home and income, yet Jesus reminded men that women were created by God and marriage was his plan.
Jesus revealed himself as the Messiah while talking to a woman, he commended another for her faith and yet another for her act of selfless devotion; using all her pension to buy perfume and then pour it onto his feet. Jesus allowed women to support him financially. He even allowed himself to be made ceremonially unclean because of a woman - when the woman with the issue of blood touched his clothes. Not only that, he healed her and called her "daughter".

THAT is how Jesus treated women. They were the underdogs, ignored, taken for granted and had less worth than a slave. Jesus listened to, affirmed, healed, restored and taught that women had worth because they were made by God, in the image of God.
You are confusing the issue. That is a completely different issue, one that supports what I have been telling you: Jesus was nice to women, because ALL of humanity (men and women alike) are represented in the manifestation of God in His image, as women. For the same reason He chose men to be His apostles and was more stern with them - because the were to represent God, and not doing a good job of it.

But the issue I was referring to, was the example of men representing God and women representing humanity in the manifestation of the order of things.
 
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ScottA

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I know, but some of the posts here seemed to imply that he was; that a Minister has to be male because Christ is male.

Unbelievers should see Christ in all of us because of our character, actions and behaviour.
I've never heard any unbeliever say "look, there's a vicar; they represent Jesus". They judge a member of the clergy by their fruit. Ministers/vicars have been known to commit adultery, get divorced, steal or be guilty of child abuse; I doubt that anyone would believe that such men "represented Jesus" because they were men.
No, but you will hear it said, that "God could be" or "is a women."

God is not the author of this type of confuse - no, this is a confusion created by those who have not shown Him by the example that He gave.
 
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ScottA

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No, I am telling you how we know whether or not a person is male; some of the physical bits and characteristics that make them so. I am also asking how you attribute that to God and know that Spirit is male.
Clearly you can't answer.



He has revealed that he is Spirit. You don't seem to want to address this point.
I have given you the answer already: God has manifest what is spirit, and shown Himself to be male in that manifestation. And you have not acknowledged His word nor His manifestation. There is no excuse, except the teachings of men (people).
 
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ScottA

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God is Spirit, John 4:24.
When God chose to enter his creation and be born as a human, he chose to be a male human. God is still Spirit.
Either acknowledge that God has manifested the matter with male representing God and female representing humanity, or we have no need of further discussion. God has been clear, in word and by manifestation.
 
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Strong in Him

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Either acknowledge that God has manifested the matter with male representing God and female representing humanity, or we have no need of further discussion. God has been clear, in word and by manifestation.

I've said what I've said.
I've also asked several questions about this and about your posts. It seems that you can't/are reluctant to answer them. So you're right; there is no point to this.
 
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tucker58

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I've said what I've said.
I've also asked several questions about this and about your posts. It seems that you can't/are reluctant to answer them. So you're right; there is no point to this.

I just want to thank you and Lady& TheCoatofmanycolors for what you have presented :) ! And I personally agree with both of you :) .
 
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Strong in Him

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I just want to thank you and Lady& TheCoatofmanycolors for what you have presented :) ! And I personally agree with both of you :) .

Thank you. :)

My mother's maiden name was Tucker; it's a good name.
And she was married in 1958 as well!
 
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Gentlemantech48

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The whole idea of women in leadership is such a hot issue, and whenever it comes up it turns into a female-verses-male, equality contest...and it should not be so - because...it's not about us.

The whole point of God creating us in His image, male and female, has a purpose that is simply bigger than us...and He did it for His on purpose, not ours. Instead of squabbling over equality - we should be embracing our differences - differences that God considers important. So...instead of continuing to fight for gender self-importance...can we discuss just what it is that God has determined is so important as to make us different in the world...when, clearly, according to the scriptures, we are not at all different in the kingdom? And, don't we all, or shouldn't we all, want to serve God's purpose for our gender, instead of campaigning for our own worldly gender identity?

Disclaimer: Because we all have such a tough time not making this issue personal, I reserve the right to call foul when a post is pro-people and not pro-God - meaning, not pertaining to His purpose.
 
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