Islam Muslim definition of freedom

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Paul.
Really you going to stoop to this level, I did not expect that of you. However in post 18 you said:-

These are some of the people that God hates, again according to Scripture:

Those with haughty eyes; those with.......................plots evil against his neighbour, or who swears falsely (Zechariah 8:17).

I agree these are sins however you clearly stated that God hates these people with no mention of sin. Therefore you did not factor in the consequence of sin and or the freedom one experiences from sin through the redemptive power of the Turin God.

If God’s love is unconditional why does the Bible not teach that He loves everyone, regardless of what they say or do? Why so many different qualifiers? The reason for the presence of these qualifiers is that He does not love everyone; and the reason He does not love them is because of what they say and do.

In what seems to be a poor answer to the questions posed above my explanations was simply to show power of Gods love with in the truin relationship were this is experienced in terms of ones freedom This was based on your quote;-

‘For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son.’ (John 3: 16).

I have re read my post and it makes perfect sense if one took the time to read it with understanding and not jump into a side issue of the Truin God of the Bible, simply because you have an argument for this.

After all if was you who brought the trinity into the discussion using John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Paul
Re the trinity, firstly I find this a pointless discusion, though it form the heart of my faith it also is the biggest contention and stumbling block for Muslims, one I understand will never be resolve. In much the same way as you would never accept me endlessly bombarding you that Mohammed is not a prophet and only a man who could not read. It adds no value to anyone.
Your understanding of the trinity will only happen as you correctly stated :-

Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation’

Since you do not have divine revelation which comes through the Holy Spirit you would not understand the Trinity.

As you know, a number of New Testament verses are cited in support of the doctrine of the Trinity. The following are the most ‘supportive’ (I’ll deal with each in its turn):

The first is this: ‘For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.’ (1 John 5:7-8).

You may wonder why Ott does not include 1 John 5:7-8.

It is highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1 John. None of the oldest Greek manuscripts of 1 John contain the comma, and none of the very early church fathers include it when quoting or referencing 1 John 5:7-8. The presence of the Comma Johanneum in Greek manuscripts is actually quite rare until the 15th century A.D.

Thus the explanation why Christians do not use it or why Ludwig did not. The only people who seem to miss this is Muslims.

You speak of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) as though there are two Gods. There is only one God; to claim otherwise is (seriously) unbiblical.

When I make reference to Yahweh it is always as God, the Messiah, Christ or Jesus Christ but never as Allah. Thus I agree Allah (of Islam) is not Biblical.

Regards Doug

 

[Niblo]

Hi Paul.
Really you going to stoop to this level, I did not expect that of you. However in post 18 you said:-



I agree these are sins however you clearly stated that God hates these people with no mention of sin. Therefore you did not factor in the consequence of sin and or the freedom one experiences from sin through the redemptive power of the Turin God.



In what seems to be a poor answer to the questions posed above my explanations was simply to show power of Gods love with in the truin relationship were this is experienced in terms of ones freedom This was based on your quote;-



I have re read my post and it makes perfect sense if one took the time to read it with understanding and not jump into a side issue of the Truin God of the Bible, simply because you have an argument for this.

After all if was you who brought the trinity into the discussion using John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Regards Doug

Jolly good. Time for tea and biscuits, I think.

 

[Niblo]

Hi Paul
Re the trinity, firstly I find this a pointless discusion, though it form the heart of my faith it also is the biggest contention and stumbling block for Muslims, one I understand will never be resolve. In much the same way as you would never accept me endlessly bombarding you that Mohammed is not a prophet and only a man who could not read. It adds no value to anyone.
Your understanding of the trinity will only happen as you correctly stated :-



Since you do not have divine revelation which comes through the Holy Spirit you would not understand the Trinity.





It is highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1 John. None of the oldest Greek manuscripts of 1 John contain the comma, and none of the very early church fathers include it when quoting or referencing 1 John 5:7-8. The presence of the Comma Johanneum in Greek manuscripts is actually quite rare until the 15th century A.D.

Thus the explanation why Christians do not use it or why Ludwig did not. The only people who seem to miss this is Muslims.



When I make reference to Yahweh it is always as God, the Messiah, Christ or Jesus Christ but never as Allah. Thus I agree Allah (of Islam) is not Biblical.

Regards Doug

Jolly good. Time for tea and biscuits, I think.

Off topic! However, if Mindlight is kind enough to give permission I will give you my understanding of the Trinity (DV).

 

[mindlight]

Hello, Mindlight.

Islam teaches that every person is born free, in a pure state of nature: free from sin; free from any taint of racial or social inferiority; pure in the sight of their Creator. Our right of freedom is sacred as long as we do not violate (wilfully) the laws of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); or the rights of others.

The Islamic concept of freedom is built on the following fundamental principles: That a person’s conscience is subject to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone; that we (and we alone) are responsible for our personal deeds; that we are entitled to reap the fruits of our labours; that we are free to decide for ourselves; and that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has provided sufficient spiritual guidance (and the necessary rational qualities) to enable us to make responsible and sound choices.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for this informative post.

From a Christian perspective the Islamic view of the efficacy of humanities free will to earn ones salvation was argued by Pelagius some 2 centuries before Mohammed.

So the Muslim view has a Number of key elements.

1) No such thing as original sin.

2) we have the freedom to earn our salvation through good deeds or to lose it by bad ones.

3) The reference point by which good or bad deeds can be assessed is what Mohammed has revealed and By Sharia law (when properly interpreted.)

4) There is no absolute assurance of the grounds of salvation or indeed of freedom. Both are things we can lose by our actions. There is no promise of God that gives us assurance of salvation and freedom from the judgments to come. We will each be assessed in terms of what we are responsible for.

 

[mindlight]

Off topic! However, if Mindlight is kind enough to give permission I will give you my understanding of the Trinity (DV).

The Trinity discussion is not irrelevant to the Christian idea of freedom and its difference with the Muslim conception. The selfgiving to set others free that is a feature of Christian freedom is afterall a feature of the eternal relationships within the Godhead. Muslims ,it seems to me ,do not have a model of such self giving in their own conception of God. Allah is described as loving , merciful etc but does not model that by either incarnation or by revelation as to His own eternal nature.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Hello.

Muslims know that on the Day of Judgment all will stand before Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is said that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah): ‘But He will overlook the bad deeds of those who have faith, do good deeds, and believe in what has been sent down to Muhammad - the truth from their Lord - and He will put them into a good state’ (Muhammad: 2).

Not only does sincere and genuine repentance wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Concerning one's intentions:

As a Christian I was told (often!) that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This concept is alien to Islam.

It is a maxim of Islamic jurisprudence that acts are judged by the intention behind them.

Proof from the Qur’an: ‘(Believers), do not allow your oaths in Allāh’s name to hinder you from doing good, being mindful of Allāh and making peace between people. Allāh hears and knows everything: He will not call you to account for oaths you have uttered unintentionally, but He will call you to account for what you mean in your hearts. Allāh is most forgiving and forbearing.’ (Al-Baqara: 224-225).

Proof from the Sunnah: ‘Narrated by Yahyâ ibn Qaz‘ah (and others): Allāh's Messenger said: “The reward of a deed depends on the intention, and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrates for Allāh and His Messenger, his emigration will be for Allāh and His Messenger and whoever emigrates for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration will be for what he emigrated for.” (Sahîh Al-Bukhârî: The Book of Revelation; 4783).

Intention (‘niyyah’) enables us to distinguish between a deed carried out for the pleasure of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), and one that is not.

It is said that intention resides in the heart; and that: ‘Should a man utter something which is different from what is in his heart, what is in his heart takes the priority over what he utters.’ (Zain-ud-Dîn Ibn Ibrâhîm Ibn Nujaim: ‘Al-Bahr ar-Râ’iq Sharh Kanz ad-Daqâ’iq’; Volume 2; page 171).

It is a teaching of Islam that a sincere intention to perform a good deed is a good deed in itself:

‘The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: “There are four types of people: one is a man whom Allāh has given knowledge and wealth. He acts with respect to his wealth based on his knowledge. Another person says that if Allāh had given him similar to what He gave the first man, he would have acted in the same fashion. The reward for both of them will be the same. A third person is one, whom Allāh gives wealth but He does not give knowledge. Therefore, he spends money according to his desire. Another man says that if Allāh had given him, what He had given that person, he would have acted in the same manner. These two will have the same burden upon them.”’ (Ibn Majah with a good chain).

One who has a pious intention is rewarded, as though for a good deed; and one who has an evil intention will bear its burden; as though for an impious deed.

The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: ‘If two Muslims meet each other with their swords, then both the killer and the killed will be in the Hell-fire.’ Someone said: “O Allāh’s Messenger, that is the case of the killer, but why should that be the case for the killed?” He answered: “Because he wanted to kill his companion.”’ (Bukhari and Muslim).

As you can see, intention is an essential component of deeds, and a condition for the validity of a deed. It is not simply a statement: ‘I intend such and such….’; nor yet a mere thought. Rather, it is the driving force behind every deed.

Islam does not teach – and this is worth noting – that an evil act can be changed into a virtuous one merely by a good intention. For example, one who sins against a person just to make another feel better has disobeyed Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). His ‘good intention’ will not benefit him at all.

I hope this helps.

Yes, this helps but does not explain why people kill others. Jesus said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." Is there anyone without sin that is qualified to stone others? All have sinned and all are worthy of death. Perhaps in the end that is exactly what will happen is everyone will kill each other off and only a remnant will remain to repopulate the world (world). But first everyone must be given the opportunity and the chance to repent.

 

[joshua 1 9]

has provided sufficient spiritual guidance

Do you really believe that everyone has sufficient spiritual guidance? Jesus talks about the servant that knows the will of the master and the servant that does not know the will of the master. The one who knows receives many blows. The one that does not know receives few blows.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Off topic! However, if Mindlight is kind enough to give permission I will give you my understanding of the Trinity (DV).

Hi Paul
I think this should be set aside for a separated thread. It will kill the current topic and I think there is a lot still to be said on freedom.

PS what biscuits do you like with your tea?

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Do you really believe that everyone has sufficient spiritual guidance? Jesus talks about the servant that knows the will of the master and the servant that does not know the will of the master. The one who knows receives many blows. The one that does not know receives few blows.

Good question

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Would anyone relate freedom (i.e. form sin) unto holiness - such that therefore as we move towards a God approved live we approach holiness, spotlessness (AL-Qudoosu is a name of Allah) etc. So to be free is to be holy - although that's not in the Koran directly afaict?

 

[DWA2DAY]

Would anyone relate freedom (i.e. form sin) unto holiness - such that therefore as we move towards a God approved live we approach holiness, spotlessness (AL-Qudoosu is a name of Allah) etc. So to be free is to be holy - although that's not in the Koran directly afaict?

This offer has been made available to you through Jesus. Romans 3:21-24 is an example
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

Regards Doug

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So its a"I wish I could be him" form of redemption?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yes, this helps but does not explain why people kill others. Jesus said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." Is there anyone without sin that is qualified to stone others? All have sinned and all are worthy of death. Perhaps in the end that is exactly what will happen is everyone will kill each other off and only a remnant will remain to repopulate the world (world). But first everyone must be given the opportunity and the chance to repent.

Nice saying, but not found in the earliest manuscripts. Does John 7:53-8:11 belong in the Bible?

As for repopulating the Earth, not according to Islamic sources. The Universe will come to end, along with everything within it.

Everyone has the opportunity to repent, right up until their final breath.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Freedom must be looked through the lens of your chosen deity or faith base. After all no matter what religion we follow we all seek to achieve approval from for Deity by adhering to the commands of the religion of our personal choice. To do this we much look at the character and nature of the God we serve and answer the question why did God create us? And what does God desire from us?

The Bible reveals the desired relationship is that of a Father and Child relationship. Since we are made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27) we are made to share in this essential character of God. Exodus 4:22 calls Israel God’s son and this relationship is revealed through the ministry of Jesus Christ. Jesus comes as the first born among many brothers, whose purpose it is to lead many sons to glory. (Romans 8:29, Hebrews 2:10)

In Romans 8:14-17 we see that those who are born of God’s Spirit enter into His spiritual family, despite our flaws. We are motivated in Love not fear to receive the spirit of adoption and thus gain the privilege of calling the One who is the Creator and God almighty “Abba and Father”.

This is a privilege Muslims do not know. In Islam there is no relationship with Allah it is motivated by servitude and inspired by fear. Surah 19:93 states nothing in Heaven or Earth can come to Allah except as a salve. Surah 51:51 states Allah has created mankind to serve nothing more.

This contrast can be seen in the manner Christians and Muslims worship the deity. Christians stand up singing arms open eyes looking to heaven like a child waiting to be pick up by there parent. While Muslims are bowing down till their heads touch the ground and their neck is exposed.

This distinction runs like a thread between the two faiths:-

Man is created in Gods Image Genesis 1:26, 2 Corinthians 3:18 verse no resemblance to Allah, nothing can be said of any of Allah’s creatures could be used to describe Him. (Maqalat al-Ashi sited by John Gilchrest “The Quran pg 54)

Christians must participate in god’s business, John 5:19-20. Muslims are bound by duty Surah 51:56, 19:93.

Christians are motivated by Love, John 14:15, while Muslims are motivated by duty and service, Surah 3:102, 5:35.

Christian are heirs to Gods riches, Romans 8:17 1 Peter 1:3-4, Muslims get paid for works done, Surah 35:30, 19:40 and 3:180.

God the Father hopes for restoration, Luke 15, 1 John 2:19. While Allah puts the deserter to death, Bukhair 52:260, 83:37 and 84:57.


Thus the bondages of faith are express in freedom to love the Father God or submit to a life of servitude and slavery with Allah.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Nice saying, but not found in the earliest manuscripts. Does John 7:53-8:11 belong in the Bible?

You know it does just watch your your tube clip posted by you in the thread call "Are Allah and God of the bible the same person"

 

[Niblo]

Thanks for this informative post.

Hello Mindlight.

Yes, there is no concept of original sin in Islam; and yes, Muslims believe that we can gain our salvation through good deeds, or lose it through (unrepented) bad ones.

Yes, the Qur’an and Sunnah form the basis for the Shari’a.

As far as salvation is concerned Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Yet anyone who does evil or wrongs his own soul and then asks Allāh for forgiveness will find Him most forgiving and merciful.’ (Al-Nisa: 110); and again: ‘My people, ask forgiveness from your Lord, and return to Him. He will send down for you rain in abundance from the sky, and give you extra strength. Do not turn away and be lost in your sins.’ (Hud: 52); and yet again: ‘My servants who have harmed yourselves by your own excess, do not despair of Allāh’s mercy. Allāh forgives all sins: He is truly the Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful. Turn to your Lord. Submit to Him before the punishment overtakes you and you can no longer be helped.’ (Al-Zumar: 53-54).

It is certainly true to say that we shall all be judged; and held accountable for our deeds (our own deeds, mind, not those of others).

You write:

The Trinity discussion is not irrelevant to the Christian idea of freedom and its difference with the Muslim conception.

I’ve said before that the Islamic concept of freedom is built on the following fundamental principles: That a person’s conscience is subject to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone; that we (and we alone) are responsible for our personal deeds; that we are entitled to reap the fruits of our labours; that we are free to decide for ourselves; and that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has provided sufficient spiritual guidance (and the necessary rational qualities) to enable us to make responsible and sound choices.

For the Christian (as you know) ‘true freedom’ is to be found when one submits to, and holds on to, the teachings of Christ – allowing his truths to govern one’s thoughts, words and deeds (‘To the Jews who believed in him Jesus said: If you make my word your home you will indeed be my disciples; you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.’ - John 8:31-32).

You write:

The self-giving to set others free that is a feature of Christian freedom is after all a feature of the eternal relationships within the Godhead…….Allah is described as loving, merciful etc but does not model that by either incarnation or by revelation as to His own eternal nature’.

Concerning the notion that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has not revealed His eternal nature:

In a famous ‘proof’ for the existence of God, St Thomas Aquinas argues that the universe is composed of contingent beings; by which he means beings that cannot bring themselves – or anything else – into existence; and that cannot guarantee their continued existence. Aquinas argues that if contingent beings are the only ones that exist, then nothing could have come into existence at all. There has to be a 'Necessary Being'; one that does not depend on any other for its existence, and which is the ‘First Cause' of all other beings. This 'Necessary Being'......this ‘First Cause' we call God (incidentally, this argument is proof that there can be only one God…only one ‘First Cause’. Whatever we wish to name Him, He remains ‘The One’; worshipped as ‘the One’ by all who claim membership of an Abrahamic Faith).

This ‘proof’ says nothing about the nature of the 'First Cause'. Is it some impersonal force that functions without consciousness; a mere machine, so to speak. Or is it something that knows, loves, cherishes; something that communicates; something that is personal? We would have no sure answer to this question, were it not for the fact that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has revealed Himself to us through His prophets. Divine Revelation tells us that He is a person.

‘Say: “He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.’ (Al-Ikhlas: 1-4); and again: ‘Allāh: there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the Ever Watchful. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. All that is in the heavens and in the earth belongs to Him. Who is there that can intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, but they do not comprehend any of His knowledge except what He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth; it does not weary Him to preserve them both. He is the Most High, the Tremendous.’ (Al-Baqara: 255).

Concerning what you have called ‘the eternal relationships within the Godhead (and the) incarnation’:

Only a Trinitarian would say that there are ‘eternal relationships’ within the Godhead’ or that the ‘incarnation’ is a matter of fact. As you know, this subject has been debated within the Christian family for centuries; and remains unresolved. I’m not sure I wish to continue this debate here, or even that I would be permitted to do so under the rules of this Forum; the reason being that I would not discuss the doctrine without mentioning its difficulties (and it has serious difficulties).

Anyway, we shall see; in šāʾ Allāh.

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul.

 

[Niblo]

Do you really believe that everyone has sufficient spiritual guidance? Jesus talks about the servant that knows the will of the master and the servant that does not know the will of the master. The one who knows receives many blows. The one that does not know receives few blows.

Joshua

Allow me to combine your two replies.

I did not say that everyone has received sufficient spiritual guidance. I said that the Beloved has provided it.

In other words, all the guidance we shall ever need in order to be the kind of people He wishes us to be is there for us to take; to understand; and to act upon. Those who are unable to do this, through no fault of their own, will not be condemned. Such people are innocent.

We must not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of people are decent folk who do all they can to avoid harming others. Their good behavior is not deemed ‘newsworthy’, of course (perhaps because it is so commonplace). Those (relatively few) who do kill (unlawfully) do so for a number of reasons. Others kill within the law; in defense of themselves or others, for example; or in order to carry out sentences of death after due process.

To say that all people are sinners and worthy of death is incorrect, at least according to Islam.

Islam teaches that those who do not have freedom of action; are below the age of responsibility, or who lack the mental capacity to know what is right and what is wrong, are neither sinful nor worthy of punishment.

In Islam, death is not a punishment for sin. It is simply an essential part of existence itself.

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul

 

[Niblo]

Hi Paul
I think this should be set aside for a separated thread. It will kill the current topic and I think there is a lot still to be said on freedom.

PS what biscuits do you like with your tea?

Regards Doug

Hi Doug.

Agreed. And belay the tea and biscuits (chocolate digestives). I'll settle for milky cocoa and buttered toast (with the crusts removed, as befits a gaffer of my age).

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul

 

[Muslim-UK]

Only a Trinitarian would say that there are ‘eternal relationships’ within the Godhead’ or that the ‘incarnation’ is a matter of fact. As you know, this subject has been debated within the Christian family for centuries; and remains unresolved. I’m not sure I wish to continue this debate here, or even that I would be permitted to do so under the rules of this Forum; the reason being that I would not discuss the doctrine without mentioning its difficulties (and it has serious difficulties).

Yes and these issues of eternal love bring problems into mind. This is best illustrated by the following video: