Islam Muslim definition of freedom

[joshua 1 9]

The Universe will come to end, along with everything within it.

The universe will end but not for a very long time. The situation on earth is that we have already had 6 extinctions followed by radiations or population explosions.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Yes and these issues of eternal love bring problems into mind. This is best illustrated by the following video:

To begin with, God is by definition the greatest conceivable being. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God! Every Muslim who dies with the cry “Allahu akbar!” on his lips agrees with this point: God is the greatest being conceivable.

Now as the greatest conceivable being, God must be perfect. If there were any imperfection in God, then He would not be the greatest conceivable being. Now a perfect being must be a loving being. For love is a moral perfection; it is better for a person to be loving rather than unloving. God therefore must be a perfectly loving being.

Now it is of the very nature of love to give oneself away. Love reaches out to another person rather than centering wholly in oneself. So if God is perfectly loving by His very nature, He must be giving Himself in love to another. But who is that other? It cannot be any created person, since creation is a result of God’s free will, not a result of His nature. It belongs to God's very essence to love, but it does not belong to His essence to create anything. God is necessarily loving, but He is not necessarily creating. So we can imagine a possible world in which God is perfectly loving and yet no created persons exist. So created persons cannot be the sufficient explanation of whom God loves. Moreover, science tells us that created persons have not always existed. But God is eternally loving. So again created persons alone are insufficient to account for God's being perfectly loving. It therefore follows that the other to whom God’s love is necessarily directed must be internal to God Himself.

In other words, God is not a single, isolated person, as Islam holds; rather God is a plurality of persons, as the Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds. On the Islamic view God is a person who does not give Himself away essentially in love for another; He is focused essentially only on Himself. Hence, He cannot be the most perfect being. But on the Christian view, God is a triad of persons in eternal, self-giving love relationships. Thus, since God is essentially loving, the doctrine of the Trinity is more plausible than any unitarian doctrine of God such as Islam. Why? Because God is by nature a perfect Being of self-giving love.

 

[Muslim-UK]

God is the greatest being conceivable.

Now as the greatest conceivable being, God must be perfect. If there were any imperfection in God, then He would not be the greatest conceivable being. Now a perfect being must be a loving being. For love is a moral perfection; it is better for a person to be loving rather than unloving. God therefore must be a perfectly loving being.

William Lane Craig teaches this to justify the Trinity, which Craig says is taught in a book whose authors made up stories.

As per the video, to understand God using your finite limited human mind, you are attempting to give God human characteristics to justify the trinity.

Christianity teaches:
The Holy Ghost existed with Jesus and The Father. ONE perfect being in 3 separate persons, that required nothing. They didn't rely upon each other, as they are all from ONE essence. This means as a perfect being needing nothing, including human characteristics like Love, Hate, Mercy, Anger, Compassion, Indifference, Forgiveness, Punishment, Sorrow, Happiness or the need to Create and Destroy.

Why did this perfect Being need to take on the 'created' attribute of love to understand what love was?

Merely possessing love, is not a moral perfection in of itself, because love is just an emotion and even a greedy person possesses love (i.e. love for money). Furthermore, love only becomes incumbent on us because we are 'created', and our creator ordained upon us that we should love each other as a worship of Him. Since God does not worship anything, (since He is God, the only), he is not subject to morals, but rather, he defines the morals which others must follow according to his will.

God is no more ‘likely’ to possess the attribute of ‘loving’ as he would possess the attribute of hating.

How do you know that God is not the perfect hating being? I can hear you cry out, ‘but what need would God have to hate if he has no rival?’, surely the same could be said of 'love'.

Love between people is merely the manifestation of the human species bonding instinct, which normally moves us to have compassion with our fellow human beings. God is not part of a created species, that requires him to possess an instinct which bonds him with other gods, this is because God is unique and the only ONE, and more importantly, he is not created.

We can not say God possesses love, since we can not know God’s chosen characteristics devoid of observing them directly ourselves, thus we must rely on Revelation to inform us. If we accept (what we believe to be) revelation, then revelation tells us, both the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an, that God loves good deeds and sincere worshippers and he hates sins and morally corrupt people. This is because there can not be an equal to God, but there can be those who possess will, who make 'created' things ‘equal’ to God. Thus God loves those who affirm him as alone and unique, the absolute ONE, and God hates those who assign partners to himself.

Finally, there lies no reference to him loving himself anywhere in the Torah, Gospel or Qur'an, thus this argument is redundant from its inception.

In conclusion, we cannot make assumptions about God’s characteristics without revelation.

Once again the rationale for a triune God fails, though Christian theologians come up with new ways of justifying a man made doctrine. In a book, Two views on The Doctrine Of Trinity, one of the 4 writers, Stephen R. Holmes comments;

"I see no great harm in such speculations, but neither do I find them particularly convincing. I cannot help feeling that if scripture had spoken to us of four divine persons we would have found it just easy to discover reasons why it was four."

 

[DWA2DAY]

William Lane Craig teaches this to justify the Trinity, which Craig says is taught in a book whose authors made up stories.

Oh yea same old same old, you do not like him so it must be wrong.

As per the video, to understand God using your finite limited human mind, you are attempting to give God human characteristics to justify the trinity.

Well you see we do not use our mind we have god revelation in the Bible. Yes I know you claim it to be corrupt, false, weak and all. But I do not.

Secondly my aim is to add value to the thread regarding how Christians arefree from bondage based on our Gods love, verses Muslim's faith in Allah who views his creation as nothing less than slaves. Surah 19:93 and 51:51.

Yes the concept of love does over lap into the trinity, because this is our Gods very nature. However this is not the direction of my post.

More important but I am sure you know the scripture on love, here are some to remind you.
1) God is Love 1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
2) I Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Verse 13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I know you will not understand the concept of these two, but simple it is understand as a spiritual gift from God.

1Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

Bundle this all together with the fact we Christians and Jews are made in the image of our God, and once we accept Jesus as out Lord and saviour (available to everyone) we take on Gods nature. That essence is love.

Ephesians 4:23-24 Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes.Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.

The of cause your favourite - John 3:16

Christianity teaches:
The Holy Ghost existed with Jesus and The Father. ONE perfect being in 3 separate persons, that required nothing. They didn't rely upon each other, as they are all from ONE essence. This means as a perfect being needing nothing, including human characteristics like Love, Hate, Mercy, Anger, Compassion, Indifference, Forgiveness, Punishment, Sorrow, Happiness or the need to Create and Destroy.

I have lots to say here, but rain check for now......ps God is Love you have to included it.

Why did this perfect Being need to take on the 'created' attribute of love to understand what love was?

It is time to use your finite limited human mind, you are attempting to minimise the Christian God to fit into Islam. For Christianity and Jews Gods very nature is Love. Love is not a created attribute. If it were then you must argue that god in himself is created, I refer to John 3:16.

Merely possessing love, is not a moral perfection in of itself, because love is just an emotion and even a greedy person possesses love (i.e. love for money).

Hey Stop for a moment and think about, love is far more than an emotion. yes a greedy person will posses love because he is made in Gods image. But been greedy is not love.
Think about it true love requires sacrifice,
Think about Abraham walking for a few day with (for your sake only) Ismael to be sacrificed, ......... run the senarior as you as the father.

Since God does not worship anything, (since He is God, the only), he is not subject to morals, but rather, he defines the morals which others must follow according to his will.

Well I would agree with you from a Muslim point of view as Allah has not morals and can do what he wants. But again the christian God is with out sin, therefore perfect. I would agree with God is above morals, but it is the very nature of loving God that confirms these morals already placed in our hearts.

Part Two of my Reply

God is no more ‘likely’ to possess the attribute of ‘loving’ as he would possess the attribute of hating.

The Christian God has both qualities and clearly stated throughout scripture. God clearly hates sin, I have already showed you god is love.

How do you know that God is not the perfect hating being? I can hear you cry out, ‘but what need would God have to hate if he has no rival?’, surely the same could be said of 'love'.

No still got my hair, ------- See above

Love between people is merely the manifestation of the human species bonding instinct, which normally moves us to have compassion with our fellow human beings. God is not part of a created species, that requires him to possess an instinct which bonds him with other gods, this is because God is unique and the only ONE, and more importantly, he is not created.

You see God is part of His creation, the Christian God desire is to have a relationship with His creation, we see this in Genesis with Adam walking in the garden each evening, this is seen in the tabernacle in exodus and most of all we see this by God in breaking into human history in Jesus Christ. Do not exclude the Holy Spirit here who dwells in each believer.


Yea your turn to scream, but this is the Christian faith and once experienced you will be blown away dwelling in His presence and love.

We can not say God possesses love, since we can not know God’s chosen characteristics devoid of observing them directly ourselves, thus we must rely on Revelation to inform us.

No you wrong, first it is clear God is Love the Bible is clear on this, secondly once you believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him for who he truly is you will observe Gods Love first hand. The only revelation required is to listen to the truth of the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart, make a commitment.

If we accept (what we believe to be) revelation, then revelation tells us, both the Torah, Bible and the Qur'an, that God loves good deeds ………………….

Yes I accept this when looking only at the Mosaic covenant. But it never woks to balance the scales and sin has conseques and the debit must be paid. This in essence is a key lesson of the Old Testament and the New Conanat with Jesus replace the Old Sacrificial system for the scapegoat, Jesus Christ who is the final sacrifice for all sin.


Think of it this way. Why use a abacus if you can use Microsoft Excel, your license fee it believe in Jesus and his teaching and you got excel for life.

…………………… and sincere worshippers and he hates sins and morally corrupt people. This is because there can not be an equal to God, ………………………………

Yes we both agree nothing is equal to God, but Allah is not the same as the Christian God, we have already agreed on this. Therefore in concept off a monotheistic God we can agree.

……………………….. but there can be those who possess will, who make 'created' things ‘equal’ to God. Thus God loves those who affirm him as alone and unique, the absolute ONE, and God hates those who assign partners to himself.

This move into the Trinity debate again, RAIN CHECK for now, I will create a thread in due course for this topic.

Finally, there lies no reference to him loving himself anywhere in the Torah, Gospel or Qur'an, thus this argument is redundant from its inception.

Redundant because the Quran does not address this issue, Loving one’s self is addresses in the Bible and is a sin of pride and this is seen in Lucifer and his fall when seen in the light inward self centered love, and not as a love of relationship of giving as in the nature of God.


You also find it redundant as it you are closed to the idea of understanding the triune God as one Begin as three persons whom love each other in there pure sense of love. To say one is without love we are nothing but a clanging gong. I Cor 13.

In conclusion, we cannot make assumptions about God’s characteristics without revelation.

Sorry this makes no sense. A revelation is the disclosure of a new fact, something unknown. Since we know God is a God of love it cannot be a revelation. Further many of Gods characteristics are made know to us in the Bible. Therefore no revelation required.


I understand this view based on the knowledge that Muslim have the Master Slave relationship and everything they do must be only done on instruction and not on relationship of love. If you have chirdren you may be able understand this type Father Child love relationship I am talking about.



Regards Doug

 

[Muslim-UK]

Oh yea same old same old, you do not like him so it must be wrong.

I like him, he makes good arguments on Cosmology against Atheists. I think I posted a video of him in the other thread, about how he didn't believe the Tomb account found in Matthew.

Well you see we do not use our mind we have god revelation in the Bible. Yes I know you claim it to be corrupt, false, weak and all. But I do not.

We have free will to believe what we like, and will be shown the truth in the hereafter.

Secondly my aim is to add value to the thread regarding how Christians arefree from bondage based on our Gods love, verses Muslim's faith in Allah who views his creation as nothing less than slaves. Surah 19:93 and 51:51.

Jesus pbuh submitted his will to God just as a slave or servant would do to his Lord and Master:

Acts 3:26, "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

Son of God in Hebrew also means Servant of God: "Son of God" means "Servant of God" in Hebrew. Bible agrees with Islam, not with pagan trinity.

Muslims are happy to follow in the footsteps of Prophet Jesus pbuh and call ourselves slave of GOD.

Yes the concept of love does over lap into the trinity, because this is our Gods very nature. However this is not the direction of my post.

Yes it's best not to imagine a God taking on the attribute of love, as it opens up a can of theological worms.

More important but I am sure you know the scripture on love, here are some to remind you.
1) God is Love 1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
2) I Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

GOD of Abraham loves ALL his Servants who worship him Alone.

Verse 13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I know you will not understand the concept of these two, but simple it is understand as a spiritual gift from God.

1Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

Bundle this all together with the fact we Christians and Jews are made in the image of our God, and once we accept Jesus as out Lord and saviour (available to everyone) we take on Gods nature. That essence is love.

Ephesians 4:23-24 Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes.Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy.

The of cause your favourite - John 3:16

He answered, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And love your neighbour as you love yourself.'”
—-> “as you love yourself”

The christian scriptures support the idea of non egotistical self love, so this Idea of dependency to be all loving doesn't make sense as already shown. The christian scriptures also describe God’s love through foreknowledge as well, so the trinity based on 'love’ from the start is a later fabrication.

It is time to use your finite limited human mind, you are attempting to minimise the Christian God to fit into Islam. For Christianity and Jews Gods very nature is Love. Love is not a created attribute. If it were then you must argue that god in himself is created, I refer to John 3:16.

Love isn't restricted to Jews and Christians:

GOD in the Qur'an is the most Loving, the most Merciful.

11:90 `And seek forgiveness of your Lord; then turn wholly to HIM. Verily, my Lord is Merciful, Most Loving.'

Hey Stop for a moment and think about, love is far more than an emotion. yes a greedy person will posses love because he is made in Gods image. But been greedy is not love.
Think about it true love requires sacrifice,
Think about Abraham walking for a few day with (for your sake only) Ismael to be sacrificed, ......... run the senarior as you as the father.

Making an emotional case is fine, and I understand where you are coming from. It is one of the last things left for Christians to appeal, in trying to explain the nature of their Triune God. As I've shown and could go on showing, the GOD of Abraham loves all his obedient subjects.

btw on a side note; the lesser Torah shows the sacrificial son was indeed the 'first born'.
Jubilees 18:11 And I said to him: 'Lay not your hand upon the lad, neither do you anything to him; for now I have shown that you fear YAHWEH, and have not withheld your son, your first-born son, from me.'

And far from being a 'wild donkey of a man', as per the racist Masoretic Scribes deliberate corruption of the Torah, in the text from the Samaritan version, it reads:
Genesis 16:12
“He will be fertile of man. His hand will be with everyone. And everyone’s hand will be with him. And he will live among all his brothers.”

Well I would agree with you from a Muslim point of view as Allah has not morals and can do what he wants. But again the christian God is with out sin, therefore perfect. I would agree with God is above morals, but it is the very nature of loving God that confirms these morals already placed in our hearts.
Regards Doug

Qur'an makes clear, all men should conduct themselves with the best of morals and manners, those commandments come from the perfect God of Abraham.

I understand you don't view the Qur'an to be from God, but should exercise caution and think twice before saying the above underlined. All of man kind will be held to account for what they utter on a day of recompense.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Part Two of my Reply

The Christian God has both qualities and clearly stated throughout scripture. God clearly hates sin, I have already showed you god is love.

Yes plenty of love from Abraham is evident across all religions, even outside of the Abrahamic faiths.

You see God is part of His creation, the Christian God desire is to have a relationship with His creation, we see this in Genesis with Adam walking in the garden each evening, this is seen in the tabernacle in exodus and most of all we see this by God in breaking into human history in Jesus Christ. Do not exclude the Holy Spirit here who dwells in each believer.

Yes GOD walked in the garden of Eden, but the how and in what form is unknown. Quite often in the Torah yahweh is actually an Angel in the form of a man who communicates on God's behalf.

Yea your turn to scream, but this is the Christian faith and once experienced you will be blown away dwelling in His presence and love.

I dwell in the love of Allah swt and am very happy.

No you wrong, first it is clear God is Love the Bible is clear on this, secondly once you believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him for who he truly is you will observe Gods Love first hand. The only revelation required is to listen to the truth of the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart, make a commitment.

Given all the research I have done on comparative religions, and their early Histories, I am more than confident of being on the right path.

Yes I accept this when looking only at the Mosaic covenant. But it never woks to balance the scales and sin has conseques and the debit must be paid. This in essence is a key lesson of the Old Testament and the New Conanat with Jesus replace the Old Sacrificial system for the scapegoat, Jesus Christ who is the final sacrifice for all sin.

Jesus pbuh taught no such thing as original sin being such a burden on mankind, that only his blood would atone for it.

Think of it this way. Why use a abacus if you can use Microsoft Excel, your license fee it believe in Jesus and his teaching and you got excel for life.

It's just a convenient get out of jail card formulated by people who didn't want to keep the commandments of GOD. Those that haven't been told otherwise, and shown the evidence will have some excuse when they meet their Lord. Those who were shown the truth and ignored it will find the doors to paradise closed to them.

Yes we both agree nothing is equal to God, but Allah is not the same as the Christian God, we have already agreed on this. Therefore in concept off a monotheistic God we can agree.

I agree not to argue, and would say the concept of God in the Qur'an is succinct and very clear cut:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

Redundant because the Quran does not address this issue, Loving one’s self is addresses in the Bible and is a sin of pride and this is seen in Lucifer and his fall when seen in the light inward self centered love, and not as a love of relationship of giving as in the nature of God.

Original sin, and Satan's pride is all addressed in Islam:
On realising his sin, Adam pbuh was filled with shame, and asked GOD to be forgiven, and this was granted. The flip side was he and his descendants would have to toil the land for a time, and be judged based on their conduct here on Earth.

Satan on the other hand was filled with pride and refused to accept his sin, instead preferring to blame mankind. God condemned him, and on asking for rest bite until the day of judgement was granted this request.

In this is a lesson for mankind, turn in repentance;
Qur'an 9:104
Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful?

You also find it redundant as it you are closed to the idea of understanding the triune God as one Begin as three persons whom love each other in there pure sense of love. To say one is without love we are nothing but a clanging gong. I Cor 13.

Extra Biblical doctrine promoted by the Church.

Sorry this makes no sense. A revelation is the disclosure of a new fact, something unknown. Since we know God is a God of love it cannot be a revelation. Further many of Gods characteristics are made know to us in the Bible. Therefore no revelation required.

Show me from Scripture where GOD says, Jesus pbuh and the Holy Ghost are part of him in a loving triune Godhead.

I understand this view based on the knowledge that Muslim have the Master Slave relationship and everything they do must be only done on instruction and not on relationship of love. If you have chirdren you may be able understand this type Father Child love relationship I am talking about.

Some Sabi (i.e. war prisoners, children and woman only) were brought before the Prophet (ﷺ) and behold, a woman amongst them was milking her breasts to feed and whenever she found a child amongst the captives, she took it over her chest and nursed it (she had lost her child but later she found him) the Prophet said to us, "Do you think that this lady can throw her son in the fire?" We replied, "No, if she has the power not to throw it (in the fire)." The Prophet (ﷺ) then said, "Allah is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."
Sahih al-Bukhari 5999; Book 78, Hadith 30

 

[DWA2DAY]

Hi Muslim UK
Thank you for your reply, I must add finally I believe we are discussing rather than the mud sling and accusations. for the record I am enjoying this interaction. Thank you

Jesus pbuh submitted his will to God just as a slave or servant would do to his Lord and Master:

Acts 3:26, "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

Son of God in Hebrew also means Servant of God: "Son of God" means "Servant of God" in Hebrew. Bible agrees with Islam, not with pagan trinity.

Muslims are happy to follow in the footsteps of Prophet Jesus pbuh and call ourselves slave of GOD.

Yes you are correct in what you are saying. Yet the mind set for a Christian to that of a muslin regarding servant hood is some what different.
Following the teachings of Jesus been a servant is motivated by love. Through my expression of love to honour the Godhead we are servants in obeying his commands within the relationship.
A Muslims view is one based on fear of Allah rejection and uncertainty of there salvation. Allah loves you if you do xyz, thus this love is conditional and self centered on your deeds not one of a relationship.
Surah 51:56 say you are created as a slave.
Surah 3:102 & 5:35 fear Allah as he should be fear.
Surah 35:50 Muslim receive payment for work done.
and the list goes on.

Yes it's best not to imagine a God taking on the attribute of love, as it opens up a can of theological worms.

Seems you have more to offer?
This is not an imagination it is a given fact. The problem for Muslims is they do not view Allah as a loving Father, but a master with a whip, therefore is a problem theologically for Islam not Christians.

GOD of Abraham loves ALL his Servants who worship him Alone..
Love isn't restricted to Jews and Christians:
As I've shown and could go on showing, the GOD of Abraham loves all his obedient subjects.

These statements are mute and irrelevant as you are trying to implay christian are saying something different that is not the case.
as note in my previous post John 3:16 God so loved the world .....

Not as you are implying "God so loved Christians and Jews......."

When you mention God of Abraham as agreed in a previous thread this is not the same god which you refer to as Allah. This is the Christian God as seen in the New and Old Testament.

He answered, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And love your neighbour as you love yourself.'”
—-> “as you love yourself”

Well again you clearly reject Mathew as aurthorative, thus fail to see how you will ever understand what he writes. None the less.

An expert in the law tried to test the Lord Jesus by asking Him to declare what was the greatest commandment in the Law of Moses. In one masterful statement, Jesus condensed the entire law that God had given Moses: “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37–40).

Simply put this is not seen as a self centred me myself and I love based on pride like the law expert, but one that address daily issues such as I do not like it when people are rude to me, it hurts s and causes a negative reaction that can lead to more sinful actions, therefore love your neighbour in the same manner as you wish to be loved (that is yourself love)

The christian scriptures support the idea of non egotistical self love, so this Idea of dependency to be all loving doesn't make sense as already shown.

Firstly you have not show anything but that you miss understand the Christian concept of God id Love. Once you understand our view it all makes perfect sense.

The christian scriptures also describe God’s love through foreknowledge as well, so the trinity based on 'love’ from the start is a later fabrication..

Well this is your view , and is once again unsupported by your false teachings.Again what has the trinity got to do with freedom verses slavery?

GOD in the Qur'an is the most Loving, the most Merciful.

11:90 `And seek forgiveness of your Lord; then turn wholly to HIM. Verily, my Lord is Merciful, Most Loving.'

We both know you are been selective here and yes we can not dispute the quran verse that you quote, but Allah is not shown as loving and mercifull in his revelations as a whole.

Making an emotional case is fine, and I understand where you are coming from. It is one of the last things left for Christians to appeal, in trying to explain the nature of their Triune God. As I've shown and could go on showing, the GOD of Abraham loves all his obedient subjects.

btw on a side note; the lesser Torah shows the sacrificial son was indeed the 'first born'.
Jubilees 18:11 And I said to him: 'Lay not your hand upon the lad, neither do you anything to him; for now I have shown that you fear YAHWEH, and have not withheld your son, your first-born son, from me.'

And far from being a 'wild donkey of a man', as per the racist Masoretic Scribes deliberate corruption of the Torah, in the text from the Samaritan version, it reads:
Genesis 16:12
“He will be fertile of man. His hand will be with everyone. And everyone’s hand will be with him. And he will live among all his brothers.”

Qur'an makes clear, all men should conduct themselves with the best of morals and manners, those commandments come from the perfect God of Abraham.

I understand you don't view the Qur'an to be from God, but should exercise caution and think twice before saying the above underlined. All of man kind will be held to account for what they utter on a day of recompense.

There is not point in discussing the above as you are now calling God a racist because you do not like what he has written.
The fact is Ishmael was never part of the covenant of Gods plan. Islams desire to give body to its false pagan god Allah tries to use other faiths text to enhance and em-blemish there cause and is simply borrowing without true knowledge.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Yes GOD walked in the garden of Eden, but the how and in what form is unknown. Quite often in the Torah yahweh is actually an Angel in the form of a man who communicates on God's behalf.

Yes the how and what form is not known, why is this a problem to you. Its still shows God wanting a relationship with His creation.

Jesus pbuh taught no such thing as original sin being such a burden on mankind, that only his blood would atone for it.

Please re-read my post as I have not claimed Jesus taught a concept original sin. Therefore unsure as to the rebuttal you are offering here.

It's just a convenient get out of jail card formulated by people who didn't want to keep the commandments of GOD.

Why do you see this as a get out jail card based on Christians do not want to keep Gods commands. I have already explained that in the loving relationship between man and God one automatically has a desire to keep His commands, failing which is death.

Qur'an 9:104
Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts repentance from His servants and receives charities and that it is Allah who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful?

Thank you prove my case Allah sees his creation as a servant not in a loving relationship, but one one based on condition of works.

Show me from Scripture where GOD says, Jesus pbuh and the Holy Ghost are part of him in a loving triune Godhead.

Very interesting question, not part of the thread and will gladly respond to this under a new thread as soon as you show me where in the Quran or Bible Jesus said "I am a mere prophet,Do Not Worship me"

"Allah is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."
Sahih al-Bukhari 5999; Book 78, Hadith 30

Thank you prove my case Allah sees his creation as slaves not in a loving relationship, but one one based on condition of works.

Regards Doug

 

[Niblo]

Hi Muslim UK

Following the teachings of Jesus been a servant is motivated by love. Through my expression of love to honour the Godhead we are servants in obeying his commands within the relationship.

A Muslims view is one based on fear of Allah rejection and uncertainty of there salvation.

Hi Doug.

‘O Lord, if I worship You
Because of fear of hell
Then burn me in hell.
If I worship You
Because I desire paradise
Then exclude me from paradise.
But if I worship You
For Yourself alone
Then deny me not.’

(Poem: ‘If I worship You’ by Rābi`a al-`Adawīyya).

I know of no Muslim who would disagree with these words.

Have a nice day.

Paul

 

[Muslim-UK]

Hi Muslim UK
Thank you for your reply, I must add finally I believe we are discussing rather than the mud sling and accusations. for the record I am enjoying this interaction. Thank you

I must confess I don't usually post on forums like this, and find other members like Nimblo, employ much more wisdom in delivering a measured exchange and let God's words speak for itself. I'm more likely to post on youtube comment sections where people post outrageous comments, hence being familiar with people like Jay Smith. I like diving in with cold hard facts and moving on to the next hater.

Yes you are correct in what you are saying. Yet the mind set for a Christian to that of a muslin regarding servant hood is some what different. Following the teachings of Jesus been a servant is motivated by love. Through my expression of love to honour the Godhead we are servants in obeying his commands within the relationship.

No different to be honest. A Muslim loves serving Allah swt and obeying his commandments, it brings us closer to him. al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (1145) and by Muslim (1261) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

Christians have been taught generation after generation, that God is love, and salvation comes through grace and the blood of Jesus pbuh. These words did not come from the lips of Jesus pbuh, and have been preached by the Church. Did you know some of the Gospels kept out of the Bible, clearly show the terrible punishments of Hell, and do not teach salvation by the cross. Similarly the corrupt Pharisees and Scribes have downplayed hell too, to a place where one goes for a period of time before moving on to Heaven. This is incorrect, and done to teach people it's ok if you don't fully obey, as you will still be saved.

Qur'an 2:80 And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

A Muslims view is one based on fear of Allah rejection and uncertainty of there salvation. Allah loves you if you do xyz, thus this love is conditional and self centered on your deeds not one of a relationship.
Surah 51:56 say you are created as a slave.
Surah 3:102 & 5:35 fear Allah as he should be fear.
Surah 35:50 Muslim receive payment for work done.
and the list goes on.

Qur'an is the final revelation of Allah swt, and as such the final warning to mankind.

Time and time the Qur'an says, those who believe, do good works, they will have nothing to fear.

[5:18] The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny.

Seems you have more to offer?
This is not an imagination it is a given fact. The problem for Muslims is they do not view Allah as a loving Father, but a master with a whip, therefore is a problem theologically for Islam not Christians.

The problem is Christians visit anti Islamic sites, and get their information from there.

These statements are mute and irrelevant as you are trying to implay christian are saying something different that is not the case.
as note in my previous post John 3:16 God so loved the world .....

Not as you are implying "God so loved Christians and Jews......."

John 3:16, Yes and we know the person who wrote the Gospel was a non Jew. He's hardly likely to write God loves the Jews, so Greek Pagans are doomed.

When you mention God of Abraham as agreed in a previous thread this is not the same god which you refer to as Allah. This is the Christian God as seen in the New and Old Testament.

One simple question, putting aside Jesus, the Messiah. Please prove the GOD worshipped by the Jews has a begotten Son, and a Holy Ghost, and the 3 though separate individuals, together make ONE GOD.

If you can show this, I can then agree to your claims, until then when I mention the GOD of Abraham, then I mean the GOD of all the Prophets and Messengers from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them all, and I personally call that ilah, ALLAH swt.

When you bring forth your evidence I'll change my ways and talk about the God of the Bible as being separate to the God of the Qur'an. I think that's fair.

Well again you clearly reject Mathew as aurthorative, thus fail to see how you will ever understand what he writes. None the less.

An expert in the law tried to test the Lord Jesus by asking Him to declare what was the greatest commandment in the Law of Moses. In one masterful statement, Jesus condensed the entire law that God had given Moses: “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37–40).

Simply put this is not seen as a self centred me myself and I love based on pride like the law expert, but one that address daily issues such as I do not like it when people are rude to me, it hurts s and causes a negative reaction that can lead to more sinful actions, therefore love your neighbour in the same manner as you wish to be loved (that is yourself love)

Same teachings reiterated in the Qur'an and Hadiths of the Prophet pbuh. It's a sin in Islam to go to bed content knowing your neighbour is hungry. Love for your brother in faith as you love yourself.

"None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself."
Related by Bukhari & Muslim

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

Firstly you have not show anything but that you miss understand the Christian concept of God id Love. Once you understand our view it all makes perfect sense.

Allah swt teaches Love, mercy and shows us how to obtain it with works and commandments. He warns of his punishment for those who want to follow their own desires. At the same as per the Hadith, he loves to forgive those who turn in repentance.

The Qur'an is both good news and a warning in multiple ayahs. Allah may punish, but also that He is merciful.

Also, humans come in different shapes and sizes and they are all not one size in terms of what motivates them. For some percentage of the population, the threat of punishment is in fact, a form of mercy and love.

A Father has three different sons, Peter, Paul and John. They all have an exam coming up that will determine their future success. Peter is a loving son, and will do whatever he can to please his father, so he will study hard regardless. Paul is a bit more incentive driven, and he responds to positive reinforcement, so his father promises to order his favourite takeaway if he studies hard. Finally, the father knows John really only responds to negative reinforcement, so he says if he doesn't study hard, he'll be grounded for a month.

Two important points:

1. In all three cases the father is being merciful to her children. Even the punishment threatened for John is out of mercy.

2. People have different personalities and to assume we're all going to be peters doing things out of love is quite frankly naive. Some of us may even go through different stages; starting as a John, then becoming more like Paul, before eventually ending up like Peter.

We both know you are been selective here and yes we can not dispute the quran verse that you quote, but Allah is not shown as loving and mercifull in his revelations as a whole.

The NT is part revelation of God, part word of unknown men, part biography of Jesus.

Similarly you have to take the whole message of Islam, Qur'an and authentic Hadiths, as the Prophet pbuh lived the Qur'an and explained it to the people.

There is not point in discussing the above as you are now calling God a racist because you do not like what he has written.
The fact is Ishmael was never part of the covenant of Gods plan. Islams desire to give body to its false pagan god Allah tries to use other faiths text to enhance and em-blemish there cause and is simply borrowing without true knowledge.

I showed that's not the case using the other Torahs. We can also look at the story presented in the Masoretic text, and I'll be happy to highlight the mistakes made by the scribes, betraying their handy work.
"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Yes the how and what form is not known, why is this a problem to you. Its still shows God wanting a relationship with His creation.

Same relationship shown in the Qur'an and furthermore Allah swt forgives Adam and Eve, who are both seen to have equally fallen foul to Satan.

I wrote, "Jesus pbuh taught no such thing as original sin being such a burden on mankind, that only his blood would atone for it."

Please re-read my post as I have not claimed Jesus taught a concept original sin. Therefore unsure as to the rebuttal you are offering here.

Christianity teaches Jesus died for the sins of mankind in order to pay for the overbearing burden of Adam and Eve, though it was mostly Eve ra. Where does Jesus pbuh explain these things, or is it another one of those taught later by the Church?

Thank you prove my case Allah sees his creation as a servant not in a loving relationship, but one one based on condition of works.

James was the brother of Jesus pbuh, grew up with him and was well acquainted with the teachings of his Brother, the son of God:

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Thank you prove my case Allah sees his creation as slaves not in a loving relationship, but one one based on condition of works.

Jesus pbuh was happy to be his slave. He did everything according to the will of Allaha, he didn't speak of his own will. He didn't even acknowledge he was good, 'Only Allaha is good'. For all intents and purposes, he was the perfect slave and excellent example for people of his time to emulate. He would have loved Niblo's poem above

 

[DWA2DAY]

I must confess I don't usually post on forums like this, and find other members like Nimblo, employ much more wisdom in delivering a measured exchange and let God's words speak for itself. I'm more likely to post on youtube comment sections where people post outrageous comments, hence being familiar with people like Jay Smith. I like diving in with cold hard facts and moving on to the next hater.

Re Nimblo – Disagree, wisdom is not based on one’s ability recite faith doctrines parrot fashion. True wisdom is been able to express your faith in a manner that is understanding to the recipient in a manner that will impact his life for the better.


I chuckle and comment – moving on to the next hater, is not loving your neighbors??? Yes I would be lying if I am not guilty of this but in truth has no purpose. Unless of cause your purpose is to incite anger in the so called “Hater” (Christians are taught to love there enemies).


Honestly I feel if one does not present the fact from a fair and reasonable view, there is not benefit for your personal growth. For example what good would it do for me to argue that Muhammad is not Islam’s prophet, He is clearly accept as one so move on. However my belief still remains he did not meet the prophet standards of the Old Testament.

No different to be honest. A Muslim loves serving Allah swt and obeying his commandments, it brings us closer to him. al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (1145) and by Muslim (1261) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him

Yes I have no problem with that. Yet it is the expression of a Muslims love for Allah. Were Allah is clear on the fact he views his subject as no more than slave, Quran verse already quoted in previous post.


Yes I understand your response will be Allah is all merciful. But this is conditional mercy based on works and the Islamic claims is Allah as total power and sovereignty over everything, thus takes away the freedom of choice. Surah 9:51, 57:22 Al -Barqawi p48.


Therefore I accept Muslin loves Allah but the return relationship is not so as Allah created you to be a slave, with no freedom of choice, he controls everything as a Master not a loving father.

), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

That all fair and well however this is still dependant on your works:-

"To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward," (Surah 5:9).

"And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (Surah 42:26).

"O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace," (Surah 8:29)

Christians have been taught generation after generation, that God is love, and salvation comes through grace and the blood of Jesus pbuh. These words did not come from the lips of Jesus pbuh, and have been preached by the Church.

I am unsure if this is a question or statement. However it looks like you have tumble dried key words that require some ironing to gain proper understanding of the terms and then it they make better sense.


Grace

To fully understand grace, we need to consider who we were without Christ and who we become with Christ. We were born in sin (Psalm 51:5), and we were guilty of breaking God’s holy laws (Romans 3:9–20, 23; 1 John 1:8–10). We were enemies of God (Romans 5:6, 10; 8:7; Colossians 1:21), deserving of death (Romans 6:23a). We were unrighteous (Romans 3:10) and without means of justifying ourselves (Romans 3:20). Spiritually, we were destitute, blind, unclean, and dead. Our souls were in peril of everlasting punishment.


Grace is an essential part of God’s character. Grace is closely related to God’s benevolence, love, and mercy. Grace can be variously defined as “God’s favor toward the unworthy” or “God’s benevolence on the undeserving.” In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don’t deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously. Simply God’s unmerited favor.


Blood of Jesus

The reality of the blood of Christ as the means of atonement for sin has its origin in the Mosaic Law. Once a year, the priest was to make an offering of the blood of animals on the altar of the temple for the sins of the people. “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). But this was a blood offering that was limited in its effectiveness, which is why it had to be offered again and again. This was a foreshadowing of the “once for all” sacrifice which Jesus offered on the cross (Hebrews 7:27). Once that sacrifice was made, there was no longer a need for the blood of bulls and goats.

The blood of Christ is the basis of the New Covenant. On the night before He went to the cross, Jesus offered the cup of wine to His disciples and said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). The pouring of the wine in the cup symbolized the blood of Christ which would be poured out for all who would ever believe in Him. When He shed His blood on the cross, He did away with the Old Covenant requirement for the continual sacrifices of animals. Their blood was not sufficient to cover the sins of the people, except on a temporary basis, because sin against a holy and infinite God requires a holy and infinite sacrifice. “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:3). While the blood of bulls and goats were a “reminder” of sin, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19) paid in full the debt of sin we owe to God, and we need no further sacrifices for sin. Jesus said, “It is finished” as He was dying, and He meant just that—the entire work of redemption was completed forever, “having obtained eternal redemption” for us (Hebrews 9:12).


Salvation

The word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.



Hope this helps.

 

[DWA2DAY]

Did you know some of the Gospels kept out of the Bible, clearly show the terrible punishments of Hell, and do not teach salvation by the cross.

You make this statement as if this were a mistake.

Let me reverse this so you will understand. Did you know the Quran omitted to say that the gospel of John says Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

I am certain you know this.

Does Islam faith agree with this – No they do not.

Why – Islamic faith says Allah cannot have children.

Therefore according to Islam the Gospel of John if a false teaching and not part of the Quran.


Not sure of what Gospel you referring to as there are a few works of the 2nd and third centaury cited as false teaching by the early Christian leaders.

Similarly the corrupt Pharisees and Scribes have downplayed hell too, to a place where one goes for a period of time before moving on to Heaven. This is incorrect, and done to teach people it's ok if you don't fully obey, as you will still be saved.

Do not get confused with what people say, there is one yard stick to measure everything and that is the Bible. Christians are taught to test everything against the Bible and not take people word for it.

1 John 4:1

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.”


But here one back at you how confusing is Surah 3:86-91

Time and time the Qur'an says, those who believe, do good works, they will have nothing to fear.


[5:18] The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny.

The problem is Christians visit anti Islamic sites, and get their information from there.

Yea right and Muslin only visit pro – Christian sites for their info, reality check, and honesty is required here.

John 3:16, Yes and we know the person who wrote the Gospel was a non Jew. He's hardly likely to write God loves the Jews, so Greek Pagans are doomed.

This comment makes no sense at all.

You must have copied and pasted from an anti- Christian site.

One simple question, putting aside Jesus, the Messiah. Please prove the GOD worshipped by the Jews has a begotten Son, and a Holy Ghost, and the 3 though separate individuals, together make ONE GOD.

As I said before I will gladly do so as soon as you show me were in the Quran or Bible Jesus said I am only a prophet do not worship me.

If you can show this, I can then agree to your claims, until then when I mention the GOD of Abraham, then I mean the GOD of all the Prophets and Messengers from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them all, and I personally call that ilah, ALLAH swt.

Your agreement to my faith is not important to me. This concern and choice is yours alone. The fact is Muhammad does not measure up to the standards of a prophet required by the Old Testament, therefore is a false prophet. Allah is a pre-Islamic pagan god used by Muhammad to gain political and military might and who teaching are far removed from that of Biblical standards.

When you bring forth your evidence I'll change my ways and talk about the God of the Bible as being separate to the God of the Qur'an. I think that's fair.

You already have the evidence before you. You decision is clear. Beside I accept Islam requires borrowing from other faith in order to establish body and depth to their faith. I can just pray for the freedom from spiritual blindness the Islamic faith imposes on its followers.

Same teachings reiterated in the Qur'an and Hadiths of the Prophet pbuh. It's a sin in Islam to go to bed content knowing your neighbour is hungry. Love for your brother in faith as you love yourself.


"None of you will believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself."

Related by Bukhari & Muslim


Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

I have no problem for your belief in this, that’s ok with me. I just see it as a false love because Islam is about duty, works and slavery. It is the true sincere love for Jesus Christ sacrifice the offer true freedom and love of one fellow begins.

Allah swt teaches Love, mercy and shows us how to obtain it with works and commandments. He warns of his punishment for those who want to follow their own desires. At the same as per the Hadith, he loves to forgive those who turn in repentance.

Thank you again you prove my point, conditional love, mercy and salvation based on works. That means you are nothing more than a slave. This is not true but a life of fear and uncertainty.

A Father has three different sons, Peter, Paul and John. They all have an exam coming up that will determine their future success. Peter is a loving son, and will do whatever he can to please his father, so he will study hard regardless. Paul is a bit more incentive driven, and he responds to positive reinforcement, so his father promises to order his favourite takeaway if he studies hard. Finally, the father knows John really only responds to negative reinforcement, so he says if he doesn't study hard, he'll be grounded for a month.

Two important points:


1. In all three cases the father is being merciful to her children. Even the punishment threatened for John is out of mercy.



2. People have different personalities and to assume we're all going to be peters doing things out of love is quite frankly naive. Some of us may even go through different stages; starting as a John, then becoming more like Paul, before eventually ending up like Peter.

You missing one factor, “If he wills it” there is no guarantee he will show mercy all the time.

Similarly you have to take the whole message of Islam, Qur'an and authentic Hadiths, as the Prophet pbuh lived the Qur'an and explained it to the people.

Look at it this way, Old testament = slavery under the law that proved imposible to gain a right standing with god.

Enter New Testament covernant = Our sin are paid for by Jesus sacrifice, as you put it get out of jail free card, the debit is non the less paid for.

Now We have Islam = Slavery under works to balance the scales,


This is going backwards, I do not need some scholar who wrote a paper called the Hadith to tell me what is going on I have God’s spirit residing inside me guiding me in the ways of God not in the way ofa faith based on slavery and loss of free choice.

I showed that's not the case using the other Torahs. We can also look at the story presented in the Masoretic text, and I'll be happy to highlight the mistakes made by the scribes, betraying their handy work.

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

RSV may not be the best translation to use, You welcome Masoretic text or whatever source you chose but please for fairness it must be available for me to review.


Once you have done your research you will find the verse is not say the scribe wrote false scripture. It means people take the text and manipulate it into something other than the authors intention. Much the same as you are doing now. Thus the warning of Jerimiah 8, do not twist the truth written in the bible to suit your personal claim.

Same relationship shown in the Qur'an and furthermore Allah swt forgives Adam and Eve, who are both seen to have equally fallen foul to Satan.

I am sorry. The Quran is clear Allah created man for no other purpose but to be a slave. The Christian God wants a relationship with his creation as seen with Adam and Eve. This is not a discussion about forgiveness but freedom so I am confused as to your point here.

Christianity teaches Jesus died for the sins of mankind in order to pay for the overbearing burden of Adam and Eve, though it was mostly Eve ra. Where does Jesus pbuh explain these things, or is it another one of those taught later by the Church?

Jesus does not have to explain this it is written in the Bible or the section you say is authentic the Torah written by Moses. Read it. Come back to me and show me were Adam and Eve are an overbearing burden to God.

James was the brother of Jesus pbuh, grew up with him and was well acquainted with the teachings of his Brother, the son of God:


James 2:14-26

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Jesus pbuh ………………… above

I can see this is one of your copy and past youn tube text. Wow I did not think you would go there. So lets break it down.


I said the following: Thank you prove my case Allah sees his creation as slaves not in a loving relationship, but one one based on condition of works.


You reply

Jesus pbuh was happy to be his slave. He did everything according to the will of Allaha, he didn't speak of his own will. He didn't even acknowledge he was good, 'Only Allaha is good'. For all intents and purposes, he was the perfect slave and excellent example for people of his time to emulate. He would have loved Niblo's poem above

1) Jesus happy to be Allah’s slave ---- This can not be as Allah does not have sons or begets anything. Since Jesus is the Son of God and Allah had no sons or daughters Jesus was not His slave.

2) He didn't even acknowledge he was good - ---- even the Quran confirm Jesus to be sinless therefore was good and thus must have been God / Allah since only Allah is good.

3) he was the perfect slave and excellent example for people of his time to emulate ---- Thus been such an excellent example to mankind in history it shows proof of the second person of the trinity, Jesus Christ, Son and Slave to His father in Heaven.


There is a time when you will be called to account for these types’ comments. Please be aware of this.



Regards Doug

 

[Muslim-UK]

I chuckle and comment – moving on to the next hater, is not loving your neighbors??? Yes I would be lying if I am not guilty of this but in truth has no purpose. Unless of cause your purpose is to incite anger in the so called “Hater” (Christians are taught to love there enemies).

moving onto the next hater = educating the next misinformed enemy of Islam.
I never stoop to their level of hate and profanity. Every now and again, I come across one who is measured in their questions, and genuinely interested in seeking answers. I answer their questions, provide links, and eventually give them the 10 min test, and never hear from them again.

For example what good would it do for me to argue that Muhammad is not Islam’s prophet, He is clearly accept as one so move on. However my belief still remains he did not meet the prophet standards of the Old Testament.

The Jews use the same standards to point out Jesus pbuh failed to meet the mark.
The only thing you have brought against Muhammad pbuh is to say he worshipped a different GOD, yet not once has anyone on this board brought evidence to show the Jews believed GOD to be part of a Trinity. Even putting aside Jesus pbuh, they will never agree to a Triune GOD.

Yes I have no problem with that. Yet it is the expression of a Muslims love for Allah. Were Allah is clear on the fact he views his subject as no more than slave, Quran verse already quoted in previous post.

Slaves that he loves, and for whom he has reserved 79 parts of his Mercy for on the Day of Judgement. Prophet Muhammad pbuh too said, all he wanted from Allah swt was to be able to intercede for his Community on the Day of Judgement. There are 7 Heavens, Muslims who die as believers will eventually be granted Paradise. We do good works and obey Allah swt to try and get in through the doors that lead to the highest levels of Paradise. Those who attain the top level, get to meet their Lord; the Ultimate Eternal Reward.

Yes I understand your response will be Allah is all merciful. But this is conditional mercy based on works and the Islamic claims is Allah as total power and sovereignty over everything, thus takes away the freedom of choice. Surah 9:51, 57:22 Al -Barqawi p48.

If your eye sins, gouge it out, if your hand sins, cut it off. These are words of Jesus pbuh
Revelation says, unbelievers will dwell in hell for eternity, many will be destroyed body and soul.
Take away the teachings of Paul the Pharisee and we have a God consistent with the OT and Qur'an.

ref 9:51,57:22 - Is your god not sovereign over everything?

That all fair and well however this is still dependant on your works:-

Yes just as James who grew up with Jesus pbuh taught. Faith without works is dead and pointless.

Grace
To fully understand grace, we need to consider who we were without Christ and who we become with Christ. We were born in sin (Psalm 51:5), and we were guilty of breaking God’s holy laws (Romans 3:9–20, 23; 1 John 1:8–10). We were enemies of God (Romans 5:6, 10; 8:7; Colossians 1:21), deserving of death (Romans 6:23a). We were unrighteous (Romans 3:10) and without means of justifying ourselves (Romans 3:20). Spiritually, we were destitute, blind, unclean, and dead. Our souls were in peril of everlasting punishment.

You are trying to twist Scripture: psalm 51:5 "The later rabbis, combining this verse with the mystery hanging over the origin and name of David’s mother, represent him as born in adultery." Psalm 51:5 Commentaries: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Every other verse you posted is from the lips of Paul or unknown authors. No Jesus pbuh

Grace is an essential part of God’s character. Grace is closely related to God’s benevolence, love, and mercy. Grace can be variously defined as “God’s favor toward the unworthy” or “God’s benevolence on the undeserving.” In His grace, God is willing to forgive us and bless us abundantly, in spite of the fact that we don’t deserve to be treated so well or dealt with so generously. Simply God’s unmerited favor.

Allah swt promises to bestow his Grace and Mercy upon his righteous slaves on the Day of Judgement.

Blood of Jesus

The reality of the blood of Christ as the means of atonement for sin has its origin in the Mosaic Law. Once a year, the priest was to make an offering of the blood of animals on the altar of the temple for the sins of the people. “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). But this was a blood offering that was limited in its effectiveness, which is why it had to be offered again and again. This was a foreshadowing of the “once for all” sacrifice which Jesus offered on the cross (Hebrews 7:27). Once that sacrifice was made, there was no longer a need for the blood of bulls and goats.

The blood of Christ is the basis of the New Covenant. On the night before He went to the cross, Jesus offered the cup of wine to His disciples and said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). The pouring of the wine in the cup symbolized the blood of Christ which would be poured out for all who would ever believe in Him. When He shed His blood on the cross, He did away with the Old Covenant requirement for the continual sacrifices of animals. Their blood was not sufficient to cover the sins of the people, except on a temporary basis, because sin against a holy and infinite God requires a holy and infinite sacrifice. “But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:3). While the blood of bulls and goats were a “reminder” of sin, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19) paid in full the debt of sin we owe to God, and we need no further sacrifices for sin. Jesus said, “It is finished” as He was dying, and He meant just that—the entire work of redemption was completed forever, “having obtained eternal redemption” for us (Hebrews 9:12).

Again Paul, his Disciple and disputed letter 1 Peter of unknown authorship.
Astonishing that Christians are happy to put their souls in the hands of men who never met Jesus pbuh. I guess the lure of eternal life by the blood of a innocent man, and grace is too much of a temptation to resist. I'm sure deep down most Christians must know they only deceive themselves, and remember GOD knows your deepest inner most thoughts, so pleading ignorance won't cut it.

Salvation

The word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Again Paul.
Matthew 19:24-25 Jesus pbuh is telling his followers to use wealth in the cause of GOD, spend it on the poor, only take what you need, and give in charity. Those who hoard wealth will have to go through the eye of a needle to enter heaven - ie impossible.

Hope this helps.

It just confirms you follow Paul and not Jesus pbuh.
In the Dead Sea Scrolls, the teacher of Righteousness is considered to be Jesus pbuh and his teachings are being disputed by a Pharisee, who seeks to alter things, making them easier and more appealing to people. Given Jesus pbuh condemns the Pharisees, as Children of Satan, shouldn't we stay clear of former Pharisees, especially one whose job it was to persecute Christians?

On Page 142 - Dead Sea Scrolls Deception: Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, we read in The Damascus Scroll:

One of these was dubbed the 'Liar', an outsider who was admitted to the community, then turned renegade, quarrelled with the 'Teacher' and hijacked part of the community's doctrine and membership. According to the 'Habakkuk Commentary', the 'Liar' 'did not listen to the word received by the Teacher of Righteousness from the mouth of God'. 22 Instead, he appealed to 'the unfaithful of the New Covenant in that they have not believed in the Covenant of God and have profaned His holy name'. 23 The text states explicitly that 'the Liar . . . flouted the Law in the midst of their whole congregation'. 24 He 'led many astray' and raised 'a congregation on deceit'. 25 He himself is said to be 'pregnant with [works] of deceit'. 26

Sounds like the false Prophet being spoken about in Revelation 2:2
‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.'

 

[Muslim-UK]

But here one back at you how confusing is Surah 3:86-91

Why is it confusing? GOD is showing his mercy with people who believe, then fall into disbelief, then repeat the cycle. The message is clear, repent with a sincere heart before it's too late, because then nothing will save you and you will no longer be guaranteed GOD's Grace. The verses are likely addressed to the hypocrites, who would profess faith in GOD and then turn their back in mockery, going back and forth as it suited their short sighted agenda.

There is a time when you will be called to account for these types’ comments. Please be aware of this.

Jesus pbuh submitted his will 100% to God, so I have no worries.

 

[DWA2DAY]

The only thing you have brought against Muhammad pbuh is to say he worshipped a different GOD, yet not once has anyone on this board brought evidence to show the Jews believed GOD to be part of a Trinity. Even putting aside Jesus pbuh, they will never agree to a Triune GOD.

Well since we are discussing Allah and Jesus view of freedom and who this impacts our belief the Trinity would not form part of the discussion would it.

Slaves that he loves, and for whom he has reserved 79 parts of his Mercy for on the Day of Judgement.

You argument is mute. I have shown you that Allah in the Quran created man to be nothing more than slaves. If you had any counter claim you would have proved other wise. Allah shows no love to his creation nor is there a verse in the Quran that shows Allah created man for a relationship of love.

Muslims who die as believers will eventually be granted Paradise.

So there is no consequence of sin it all based on Allah mercy, then goes on to say, in the Quran Allah has the right to do as Allah pleases. Hope you do not get there on a bad day!

We do good works and obey Allah swt to try and get in through the doors that lead to the highest levels of Paradise. Those who attain the top level, get to meet their Lord; the Ultimate Eternal Reward.

Thank you prove my point again, a relationship based on works and condition not the freedom of choice and love. Then and only then with a big maybe you may get to heaven to meet Allah.

This is not freedom but slavery.

Take away the teachings of Paul the Pharisee and we have a God consistent with the OT and Qur'an.

Please really is this the defense you have, remove the competition of the Christian text because I do not like. Then Islam has a case to argue.

Thank you once again you prove my point, Muslims live in a life of fear of there master (Allah).

Yes just as James who grew up with Jesus pbuh taught. Faith without works is dead and pointless.

Clearly you have not understood my post on this, no point in answering the same question twice.

You are trying to twist Scripture:

Every other verse you posted is from the lips of Paul or unknown authors. No Jesus pbuh

It just confirms you follow Paul and not Jesus pbuh.

All you saying is here Muslims have no defense so the Christian text must be wrong. This is a very weak argument.

I have already proved beyond doubt in another thread that the Quran support all the Christian text as we have then today. Therefore we hearing comments like this it is clear Muslim do not hold the Quran as the source of their faith and rely on fables and myths made up in the Haith's.

Regards Doug

 

[DWA2DAY]

Why is it confusing? GOD is showing his mercy with people who believe, then fall into disbelief, then repeat the cycle. The message is clear, repent with a sincere heart before it's too late, because then nothing will save you and you will no longer be guaranteed GOD's Grace. The verses are likely addressed to the hypocrites, who would profess faith in GOD and then turn their back in mockery, going back and forth as it suited their short sighted agenda.

However, the passage goes on to speak of those who repent THEREAFTER (v. 89), which implies that apostates CAN repent and be forgiven after all! But then, in verse 90, the passage reverts back to saying that “NEVER will their repentance be accepted”!!!???

As if it couldn’t get any more confusing, the text speaks of people repenting after they have entered into hell and says that Allah will not accept ransom from anyone who dies disbelieving even if s/he were to bring an earth full of gold.

Jesus pbuh submitted his will 100% to God, so I have no worries.

Since you do not believe Jesus is God, and we have show Islam to be a false religion I admire your tanacity.

 

[mindlight]

Hello Mindlight.

Yes, there is no concept of original sin in Islam; and yes, Muslims believe that we can gain our salvation through good deeds, or lose it through (unrepented) bad ones.

Yes, the Qur’an and Sunnah form the basis for the Shari’a.

As far as salvation is concerned Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Yet anyone who does evil or wrongs his own soul and then asks Allāh for forgiveness will find Him most forgiving and merciful.’ (Al-Nisa: 110); and again: ‘My people, ask forgiveness from your Lord, and return to Him. He will send down for you rain in abundance from the sky, and give you extra strength. Do not turn away and be lost in your sins.’ (Hud: 52); and yet again: ‘My servants who have harmed yourselves by your own excess, do not despair of Allāh’s mercy. Allāh forgives all sins: He is truly the Most Forgiving, the Most Merciful. Turn to your Lord. Submit to Him before the punishment overtakes you and you can no longer be helped.’ (Al-Zumar: 53-54).

It is certainly true to say that we shall all be judged; and held accountable for our deeds (our own deeds, mind, not those of others).

All the main Christian denominations hold to the doctrine of original sin. It seems to me also to be a straightforward reading of the world as it is. There is so much imperfection and it is evident from a very early age regardless of culture and location. This is as true in the Islamic world as in the Christian one. That our wills have, in a sense, been compromised by the faulty dispositions that we have inherited, by no fault of our own, does alter the way we approach God. Noone can approach God with a confidence born of his own good deeds. All of our deeds are as filthy rags compared to Gods standards and are meaningful only when animated by the grace and mercy of the Divine. Thus I think many Muslims may live under a delusion that comes from self righteousness and others from an unwarranted despair born from a realistic reading of their lifes works. Such despair is often the background for the recruitment of suicide bombers. They are told that with one supreme act they can wipe out a lifetime of misdeeds.

You write:

The Trinity discussion is not irrelevant to the Christian idea of freedom and its difference with the Muslim conception.

I’ve said before that the Islamic concept of freedom is built on the following fundamental principles: That a person’s conscience is subject to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone; that we (and we alone) are responsible for our personal deeds; that we are entitled to reap the fruits of our labours; that we are free to decide for ourselves; and that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has provided sufficient spiritual guidance (and the necessary rational qualities) to enable us to make responsible and sound choices.

For the Christian (as you know) ‘true freedom’ is to be found when one submits to, and holds on to, the teachings of Christ – allowing his truths to govern one’s thoughts, words and deeds (‘To the Jews who believed in him Jesus said: If you make my word your home you will indeed be my disciples; you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.’ - John 8:31-32).

Submission to Christ is indeed grounds for true freedom. Christ modelled this freedom to us in his earthly submission to the Father e.g. the Garden of Gethsame prayer and then going to the cross. Islam does not have such a model of self giving freedom modelled by God Himself in incarnate form. I do not find what I read in the Quran to be sufficient guidance as to how to live out my freedom. I read prohibitions and hell fire but can find no model of perfect freedom there.

You write:

The self-giving to set others free that is a feature of Christian freedom is after all a feature of the eternal relationships within the Godhead…….Allah is described as loving, merciful etc but does not model that by either incarnation or by revelation as to His own eternal nature’.

Concerning the notion that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has not revealed His eternal nature:

In a famous ‘proof’ for the existence of God, St Thomas Aquinas argues that the universe is composed of contingent beings; by which he means beings that cannot bring themselves – or anything else – into existence; and that cannot guarantee their continued existence. Aquinas argues that if contingent beings are the only ones that exist, then nothing could have come into existence at all. There has to be a 'Necessary Being'; one that does not depend on any other for its existence, and which is the ‘First Cause' of all other beings. This 'Necessary Being'......this ‘First Cause' we call God (incidentally, this argument is proof that there can be only one God…only one ‘First Cause’. Whatever we wish to name Him, He remains ‘The One’; worshipped as ‘the One’ by all who claim membership of an Abrahamic Faith).

This ‘proof’ says nothing about the nature of the 'First Cause'. Is it some impersonal force that functions without consciousness; a mere machine, so to speak. Or is it something that knows, loves, cherishes; something that communicates; something that is personal? We would have no sure answer to this question, were it not for the fact that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has revealed Himself to us through His prophets. Divine Revelation tells us that He is a person.

‘Say: “He is Allāh the One, Allāh the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.’ (Al-Ikhlas: 1-4); and again: ‘Allāh: there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the Ever Watchful. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. All that is in the heavens and in the earth belongs to Him. Who is there that can intercede with Him except by His leave? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, but they do not comprehend any of His knowledge except what He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth; it does not weary Him to preserve them both. He is the Most High, the Tremendous.’ (Al-Baqara: 255).

Concerning what you have called ‘the eternal relationships within the Godhead (and the) incarnation’:

Only a Trinitarian would say that there are ‘eternal relationships’ within the Godhead’ or that the ‘incarnation’ is a matter of fact. As you know, this subject has been debated within the Christian family for centuries; and remains unresolved. I’m not sure I wish to continue this debate here, or even that I would be permitted to do so under the rules of this Forum; the reason being that I would not discuss the doctrine without mentioning its difficulties (and it has serious difficulties).

Anyway, we shall see; in šāʾ Allāh.

So you submit to what you do not know while we submit to what we do know. You choose to obey a mystery while we choose to obey a God we know loves us and who has demonstrated that by sharing our life and even dying for us as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Our grounds for the hope of freedom are that the original sin that compromised it and the sins we ourselves have committed are no longer sufficient to prevent it. Our account is wiped clean by the sacrifice that Christ has made and so we can be truly free.

Even a Muslim who thinks he was born perfect will know that many sins he has committed. If he does not really know the God he submits to how does he know if his attempts at doing good are received by God as good rather than flawed. How many Muslims are therefore without the assurance that Christians have received by atonement and by promise.

Have a great week, and very best regards.

Paul.

You too

 

[Muslim-UK]

You argument is mute. I have shown you that Allah in the Quran created man to be nothing more than slaves. If you had any counter claim you would have proved other wise. Allah shows no love to his creation nor is there a verse in the Quran that shows Allah created man for a relationship of love.

I'm happy to acknowledge we have been created to worship GOD, and are happy to be called his slaves. Do you consider yourself to be above Angels?

Jesus pbuh in the NT makes clear his followers must keep Torah and not listen to anyone who says otherwise.

So there is no consequence of sin it all based on Allah mercy, then goes on to say, in the Quran Allah has the right to do as Allah pleases. Hope you do not get there on a bad day!

anyone who worships GOD alone is promised success.

Thank you prove my point again, a relationship based on works and condition not the freedom of choice and love. Then and only then with a big maybe you may get to heaven to meet Allah. This is not freedom but slavery.

It feels wonderful and a real blessing to be counted as a slave of Allah swt. No wonder Abdullah is a very popular name amongst Muslims.

I have already proved beyond doubt in another thread that the Quran support all the Christian text as we have then today. Therefore we hearing comments like this it is clear Muslim do not hold the Quran as the source of their faith and rely on fables and myths made up in the Haith's.

I haven't posted in this other thread, but your own Scholars say the originals are lost, and you can only reconstruct the complete NT to the 4th Century.

How shall God Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.

I don't see a problem:
3:86 How shall God Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.
3:87 Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of God, of His angels, and of all mankind;-
3:88 In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

Up to this point we clearly see once these people go to Hell, there's no coming back.

3:89 Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Straight forward, repent before it's too late, ie death overcomes you, or Jesus pbuh returns.

3:90 But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

Those who go in and out of belief, adding to their unbelief will be of the losers.

3:91 As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.

Joined by those who rejected the message.

The verses are clear, and talking about different people. First there are those who genuinely repent they are forgiven and they continue life in obedience, second are those who never repent in this life - and they take their place in the hell fire, third are those who want to play games, they are the liars and hypocrites who think they will deceive God by uttering that they repent, when in fact they are not being sincere, some think that they will continue in sin, [whilst knowing the punishment of that] and then when death approaches they can repent and go to paradise, God is warning them, this is incorrect, that kind of insincere repentance will never be accepted, the punishment is the hell fire because they lied and deceived themselves.

 

[DWA2DAY]

It feels wonderful and a real blessing to be counted as a slave of Allah swt. No wonder Abdullah is a very popular name amongst Muslims.

Since slave are not free, Islam is therefore held in bondage by Allah and not a religion of freedom.

Thank you for the Debate / Discussion.

 

[Niblo]

So you submit to what you do not know while we submit to what we do know. You choose to obey a mystery while we choose to obey a God we know loves us

Hello, Mindlight.

Christians often claim – sometimes naively….sometimes arrogantly….but always incorrectly – that they are the only people who: ‘Choose to obey a God we know loves us.’ (Your words).

It might come as a wee bit of a surprise to realise that Muslims and Jews also choose to obey a God whose love for them is well known (to them)!

H.R.H. Prince Ghazi of Jordan writes:

‘God speaks of the great reality of love many times in the Holy Qur’an. He mentions those whom He loves, such as, for example, those who rely on Him: “And when you are resolved, rely on God; for God loves those who rely (upon Him). (Al ‘Imran: 159).

‘However, God’s Love is not merely one of God’s acts or actions, but one of God’s very Own Divine Qualities or Names. This can be seen by the many Divine Names in the Holy Qur’an which denote God’s loving

qualities (such as: ‘the Gentle’—‘Al-Latif’; ‘the Kind’—‘Al-Raouf’; ‘the Generous’—‘Al-Kareem’; ‘the Forbearing’—‘Al-Haleem’; ‘the Absolutely Reliable’—‘Al-Wakil’; ‘the Friend’—‘Al-Wali’; ‘the Good’—‘Al-Barr’;

‘the Forgiving’—‘Al-Ghafur’; ‘the Forgiver’—‘Al-Ghaffar’; ‘the Granter and Accepter of Repentance’—‘Al-Tawwab’, and ‘the Pardoner’—‘Al-‘Afu’), and in particular by His Name ‘the Loving’ (‘Al-Wadud’). (‘Love in the Holy Quran’).

Zulfiqar Ahmad Naqshbandi writes:

‘Allah (SWT) loves the believers and therefore states (that He is): ‘The Friend of those who believe’. (2:257)

‘The Quran states that Allah (SWT) will create a nation such that: ‘Allah will love them and they will love Him. (5:54). In this verse, Allah (SWT) first ascribes the attribute of loving to Himself, and then mentions the love of the believers.

‘Allah (SWT) states: ‘Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their souls and wealth in exchange for Heaven. (9:111).

‘A buyer’s insistence on purchasing an item, despite his awareness of its defects, implies that the item is desirable irrespective of its faults. Allah (SWT) created humanity and is well aware of its faults and defects. He knows that man is weak (daīf) (4:28), hasty (ajūlā) (17:11), impatient (halū’ā) (70:19), stingy (manū’ā) (70:21), and irritable (jazū’ā) (70:20). Yet Allah (SWT) still chose to purchase him in exchange for Heaven. This is an indication that Allah (SWT) loves those who believe.

‘Hadrat Bayazid Bustami (rah) used to say: ‘Muhabbah (spiritual love) is to find trifling that which is given from oneself (to the Beloved), even though it is great; and to find great that which is received from one’s Beloved, even if it is miniscule’.

‘Allah (SWT) bestows so many blessings on His servants that it is impossible to count them: ‘If you try to count the blessings of Allah, you will be unable to enumerate them (14:34).

‘Allah (SWT) love for the believers is mirrored in their hearts, causing them to overflow with His love: “And those who believe have intense love for Allah”’ (2:165). (‘Love for Allah’)

Rabbi David Rosen writes:

‘Indeed the very fact that the human person is created in the Divine Image is seen in itself as a manifestation of Divine Love. A related Hebrew term for love is the word “chibah”. Using this term, the sages of the Mishnah declare (Avot, 3:14): “beloved is the human being for he is created in the Divine Image, (and) even greater love has been (granted to him, in that it has been) made known to him that he has been created in the Divine Image.”

‘This love of G_d for His creatures is manifest supremely in His forgiveness.

‘Because “there is not a man on earth who does not sin and does only good” (Ecclesiastes 7:20), we would all be condemned by our failures. G_d’s unlimited love and compassion cleanses us from our sins when our contrition is sincere. Indeed, Jewish tradition viewed Temple sin offerings purely as an outward manifestation of genuine confessed penitence (Lev. 5:5-6; Num. 5:6. See also Psalms 32:5; 38:19; 41:5; Lamentations 3:40), reflecting the concept known in Judaism as “teshuvah”, from the root “shuv” meaning, return (see Joel 2:12-14). It expresses the idea that the human person is inherently goodly and Godly, i.e. seeks to be with G_d and live accordingly, but inevitably because he is human and because he is endowed with the Divine gift of free will, he makes mistakes and is invariably corrupted.

‘However, in order to be back with G_d, all a person has to do is to be sincerely contrite for his errors and thus return to G_d who in His unlimited love accepts the sinner and erases his guilt. “As I live says the Lord G_d, I do not desire the death of the wicked; but that the wicked returns from his (evil) way and lives; return, return, from your evil ways, why should you die (members of the) house of Israel.” (Ezekiel 33:11).

‘This concept of “teshuvah” as flowing from G_d’s love for His creatures occupies a central place in rabbinic thought and teaching.’ (‘The Jewish perspective on Biblical love’).

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul.