mindlight

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I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

To start the thread I will offer a Christian definition of freedom which people can improve on during this thread and a Western Liberal definition also.

CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
Negatively Freedom is the opposite of slavery. The most enslaving force in human experience is sin which in turn empowers the evils of the demonic realm, world institutions and of ones own nature. The Christian view of freedom therefore begins with a view of liberation from the enslaving effects of sin, the punishments incurred as a result of sin and the diminishment of personal potential and choice that results from that.
Positively Christian freedom is modelled on Christ whose freedom is demonstrated in the incomparable richness of his love, life and truth. What he freely gave up ultimately granted to others the possibility of freedom. It is the truth that He speaks and acts and models which sets us free and which guides the most perfectly free people. Freedom is communal in that we all share in a free society and our freedom is reduced by political , economic and cultural restraints on potential, choice and Christian living. Christian forgiveness and healing is essential to freedom as it liberates from sin and wounds that sins have brought into the human condition.

WESTERN LIBERAL FREEDOM
Western Liberals view of freedom is more individualistic and materialistic and based on an arbitrary view of the exercise of choice not contingent on external authorities or influences.
 

brinny

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I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

To start the thread I will offer a Christian definition of freedom which people can improve on during this thread and a Western Liberal definition also.

CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
Negatively Freedom is the opposite of slavery. The most enslaving force in human experience is sin which in turn empowers the evils of the demonic realm, world institutions and of ones own nature. The Christian view of freedom therefore begins with a view of liberation from the enslaving effects of sin, the punishments incurred as a result of sin and the diminishment of personal potential and choice that results from that.
Positively Christian freedom is modelled on Christ whose freedom is demonstrated in the incomparable richness of his love, life and truth. What he freely gave up ultimately granted to others the possibility of freedom. It is the truth that He speaks and acts and models which sets us free and which guides the most perfectly free people. Freedom is communal in that we all share in a free society and our freedom is reduced by political , economic and cultural restraints on potential, choice and Christian living. Christian forgiveness and healing is essential to freedom as it liberates from sin and wounds that sins have brought into the human condition.

WESTERN LIBERAL FREEDOM
Western Liberals view of freedom is more individualistic and materialistic and based on an arbitrary view of the exercise of choice not contingent on external authorities or influences.

Excellent question.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

To start the thread I will offer a Christian definition of freedom which people can improve on during this thread and a Western Liberal definition also.

CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
Negatively Freedom is the opposite of slavery. The most enslaving force in human experience is sin which in turn empowers the evils of the demonic realm, world institutions and of ones own nature. The Christian view of freedom therefore begins with a view of liberation from the enslaving effects of sin, the punishments incurred as a result of sin and the diminishment of personal potential and choice that results from that.
Positively Christian freedom is modelled on Christ whose freedom is demonstrated in the incomparable richness of his love, life and truth. What he freely gave up ultimately granted to others the possibility of freedom. It is the truth that He speaks and acts and models which sets us free and which guides the most perfectly free people. Freedom is communal in that we all share in a free society and our freedom is reduced by political , economic and cultural restraints on potential, choice and Christian living. Christian forgiveness and healing is essential to freedom as it liberates from sin and wounds that sins have brought into the human condition.

WESTERN LIBERAL FREEDOM
Western Liberals view of freedom is more individualistic and materialistic and based on an arbitrary view of the exercise of choice not contingent on external authorities or influences.
Muslims are under law and they do not understand the love, mercy, grace and forgiveness of God. They say if someone wrongs you then you plant a tree. As long as that tree is still alive you do not forgive them. But if the tree dies then you forgive them. Although this works the other way also. If a friend gives you a plant as long as that plant lives you will continue to be friends. I actually have two Rose of Sharon trees that two different friends have given to me and they are both doing just fine.

With Christians if we are wronged we nail that to the cross. Jesus paid their debt for them. In fact the Bible teaches that in order for us to be forgiven we have to forgive others. If we do not forgive then God does not forgive us. This is the difference between the law of God (Justice) and the Love of God. He is a God of absolute Justice. The law can not be broken. That is why Jesus had to pay the price for us so that the righteous requirements of the law can be fulfilled in Him.

Some people say that the day is coming when One Billion people will come to Christ and get saved. I do not think they will stop being Muslim, I think they will become Messianic Muslims just like we have Messianic Judaism. They share the same father: Abraham. Only the Muslims have the Egyptian Hagar for a mother and Judaism have Sarah for a mother.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Thanks interesting question, ty, I have wondered myself. There doesn't seem to be an overt philosophic definition in Islam, although I am sure that Shia have one as they are more philosophical.

A quick quran search (free @ Quran - Recite & Listen Quran Online ) indicates ideas of freedom from blame, fear, from stain of garment, slavery, responsibility for others sin if they disobey, freedom from needs - it seems mainly to be freedom from.

Also there is "he has let free two bodies of water" (55.19) indicating to me who has a philosophic background something like what Heidegger defined as an entity released into its essence, to act according to their specific nature and dispositions. ie Allowing to act according to their natures uninterrupted.
 
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DWA2DAY

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I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

To start the thread I will offer a Christian definition of freedom which people can improve on during this thread and a Western Liberal definition also.

CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
Negatively Freedom is the opposite of slavery. The most enslaving force in human experience is sin which in turn empowers the evils of the demonic realm, world institutions and of ones own nature. The Christian view of freedom therefore begins with a view of liberation from the enslaving effects of sin, the punishments incurred as a result of sin and the diminishment of personal potential and choice that results from that.
Positively Christian freedom is modelled on Christ whose freedom is demonstrated in the incomparable richness of his love, life and truth. What he freely gave up ultimately granted to others the possibility of freedom. It is the truth that He speaks and acts and models which sets us free and which guides the most perfectly free people. Freedom is communal in that we all share in a free society and our freedom is reduced by political , economic and cultural restraints on potential, choice and Christian living. Christian forgiveness and healing is essential to freedom as it liberates from sin and wounds that sins have brought into the human condition.

WESTERN LIBERAL FREEDOM
Western Liberals view of freedom is more individualistic and materialistic and based on an arbitrary view of the exercise of choice not contingent on external authorities or influences.

I look forward to hearing the Muslim view,

Regards
 
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DWA2DAY

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Im a Muslim but am a muslim humanist, and I dont have a muslim faith label . Is that legal here?

Hi Growing Smaller
As far as I concerned your view is important here. My advice is simple stay within the posting rules.

Regards Doug
 
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GrowingSmaller

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OK I am a member of Islam, but does that necessitate I use a faith tag? I tend to avoid it because I don't want ethnic tensions in general, with all these wars etc, and pick humanist because someone can be a muslim humanist.

300px-Venn_A_intersect_B.svg.png
 
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Limo

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I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

To start the thread I will offer a Christian definition of freedom which people can improve on during this thread and a Western Liberal definition also.

CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
Negatively Freedom is the opposite of slavery. The most enslaving force in human experience is sin which in turn empowers the evils of the demonic realm, world institutions and of ones own nature. The Christian view of freedom therefore begins with a view of liberation from the enslaving effects of sin, the punishments incurred as a result of sin and the diminishment of personal potential and choice that results from that.
Positively Christian freedom is modelled on Christ whose freedom is demonstrated in the incomparable richness of his love, life and truth. What he freely gave up ultimately granted to others the possibility of freedom. It is the truth that He speaks and acts and models which sets us free and which guides the most perfectly free people. Freedom is communal in that we all share in a free society and our freedom is reduced by political , economic and cultural restraints on potential, choice and Christian living. Christian forgiveness and healing is essential to freedom as it liberates from sin and wounds that sins have brought into the human condition.

WESTERN LIBERAL FREEDOM
Western Liberals view of freedom is more individualistic and materialistic and based on an arbitrary view of the exercise of choice not contingent on external authorities or influences.
What an interesting topic.

Don't get shocked...
Let us start with the definition of freedom. Do you've one ?

There is nothing called "Christian freedom" actually you're in "freed from Christianity" era since revolution against Church in Dark Era.

Do you want to discuss freedom in Christianity, Actually the New Testimony is composed of group of book to slaves or even less. Slaves are aiming to change their positions, conditions, situations,,, but New Testimony asked you not to do anything against aggression or misuse or salvation.
For example, it asks you to pay tax to the aggressive colonist empire (Roman), to give what is called "what is Caesar's " anything Caesar says it's mine, carry the Roman soldier's staff for 2 miles instead of one mile according to the Caesar's law, turn your cheek to the 2nd slap, you sins are not forgiven without confession to another human,,,,
So don't say "Christian freedom" but "Freed from Christianity"
 
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DWA2DAY

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Hi Limo
Post #1. Clearly ask four questions.

I would be interested in hearing a Muslims definition of freedom.

1) What is true freedom?

2) How does a Muslim view of freedom compare and contrast with a Christian view or the Western Liberal notions of freedom?

3) Is freedom a priority in the Muslim world?

4) Do Muslim societies model the Muslim view of freedom?

What an interesting topic.

Your response would be appreciated but have the self respect and stay within the topic and at least try to answer the questions. we know you are a Muslim and thus has no understanding of the love relationship of Christianity and gift of joy it returns by turning the other cheek, pay our taxes or asking for forgiveness. These things are above your understanding.

In addition it offers no value as to what a Muslims view of slavery other than you ignorance towards christian scripture.

Regards Doug.
 
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mindlight

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What an interesting topic.

Don't get shocked...
Let us start with the definition of freedom. Do you've one ?

There is nothing called "Christian freedom" actually you're in "freed from Christianity" era since revolution against Church in Dark Era.

Do you want to discuss freedom in Christianity, Actually the New Testimony is composed of group of book to slaves or even less. Slaves are aiming to change their positions, conditions, situations,,, but New Testimony asked you not to do anything against aggression or misuse or salvation.
For example, it asks you to pay tax to the aggressive colonist empire (Roman), to give what is called "what is Caesar's " anything Caesar says it's mine, carry the Roman soldier's staff for 2 miles instead of one mile according to the Caesar's law, turn your cheek to the 2nd slap, you sins are not forgiven without confession to another human,,,,
So don't say "Christian freedom" but "Freed from Christianity"
True that a Christian can be free even when in chains or when living under an oppressive government.

False that the view of Christian freedom does not allow for the abolition of physical slavery. This was mainly accomplished by Christians coopting the power of the British empire to their cause.

Those Egyptian Christians that Islamic state martyred on TV died as men freed from sin and covered by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words they died innocent of all wrong doing. Their Muslim captors by contrast are slaves to the sins of ,at very least, murder, deceit and blasphemy.

So can a Muslim only be free when the government is Muslim and he is paying taxes that go towards Muslim causes? If that is so why are so many Muslims running away from Muslim countries in pursuit of a different kind of freedom here in the West? How does Sharia law make a man free?
 
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Limo

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Hi Limo
Post #1. Clearly ask four questions.
Your response would be appreciated but have the self respect and stay within the topic and at least try to answer the questions. we know you are a Muslim and thus has no understanding of the love relationship of Christianity and gift of joy it returns by turning the other cheek, pay our taxes or asking for forgiveness. These things are above your understanding.

In addition it offers no value as to what a Muslims view of slavery other than you ignorance towards christian scripture.

Regards Doug.
Hi Doug,
The topic and the questions are not about Islam only. It's mainly about comparison between freedom in Islam and what is called "Christian freedom".

Answering the questions is easy then tons of ready comments are punched. We should have an agreement on the bases of measures of compliance of Islam with "Freedom"

First: let us agree about definition of "Freedom". Then we can say is Islam is compliant or not ? Is Christianity is compliant or not ?. In business it's called Key Performance Indicators (KPIs). Let us agree first on KPIs then we compare Islam and Christianity to these KPIs

Second : I don't accept to call the current western era as "Christian freedom", actually It's vice versa "freedom from Christianity" era

oooh, yes I don't have that joy of leaving under colonialism of aggressive empires and turn other cheek and carry military staff soldiers for 2 miles.

No, we're from the opposite side, we live in pride and push back aggression and don't accept any misuse.
Regards
 
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mindlight

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Hi Doug,
The topic and the questions are not about Islam only. It's mainly about comparison between freedom in Islam and what is called "Christian freedom".

Answering the questions is easy then tons of ready comments are punched. We should have an agreement on the bases of measures of compliance of Islam with "Freedom"

First: let us agree about definition of "Freedom". Then we can say is Islam is compliant or not ? Is Christianity is compliant or not ?. In business it's called Key Performance Indicators (KPIs). Let us agree first on KPIs then we compare Islam and Christianity to these KPIs

Second : I don't accept to call the current western era as "Christian freedom", actually It's vice versa "freedom from Christianity" era

oooh, yes I don't have that joy of leaving under colonialism of aggressive empires and turn other cheek and carry military staff soldiers for 2 miles.

No, we're from the opposite side, we live in pride and push back aggression and don't accept any misuse.
Regards

Ok so we are still waiting for a muslim definition of what freedom is.
 
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Niblo

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Muslims are under law and they do not understand the love, mercy, grace and forgiveness of God.


Hello.

Muslims know that on the Day of Judgment all will stand before Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). Each will be given a record of their lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is said that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah): ‘But He will overlook the bad deeds of those who have faith, do good deeds, and believe in what has been sent down to Muhammad - the truth from their Lord - and He will put them into a good state’ (Muhammad: 2).

Not only does sincere and genuine repentance wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

Concerning one's intentions:

As a Christian I was told (often!) that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This concept is alien to Islam.

It is a maxim of Islamic jurisprudence that acts are judged by the intention behind them.

Proof from the Qur’an: ‘(Believers), do not allow your oaths in Allāh’s name to hinder you from doing good, being mindful of Allāh and making peace between people. Allāh hears and knows everything: He will not call you to account for oaths you have uttered unintentionally, but He will call you to account for what you mean in your hearts. Allāh is most forgiving and forbearing.’ (Al-Baqara: 224-225).

Proof from the Sunnah: ‘Narrated by Yahyâ ibn Qaz‘ah (and others): Allāh's Messenger said: “The reward of a deed depends on the intention, and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrates for Allāh and His Messenger, his emigration will be for Allāh and His Messenger and whoever emigrates for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration will be for what he emigrated for.” (Sahîh Al-Bukhârî: The Book of Revelation; 4783).

Intention (‘niyyah’) enables us to distinguish between a deed carried out for the pleasure of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla), and one that is not.

It is said that intention resides in the heart; and that: ‘Should a man utter something which is different from what is in his heart, what is in his heart takes the priority over what he utters.’ (Zain-ud-Dîn Ibn Ibrâhîm Ibn Nujaim:Al-Bahr ar-Râ’iq Sharh Kanz ad-Daqâ’iq’; Volume 2; page 171).

It is a teaching of Islam that a sincere intention to perform a good deed is a good deed in itself:

‘The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: “There are four types of people: one is a man whom Allāh has given knowledge and wealth. He acts with respect to his wealth based on his knowledge. Another person says that if Allāh had given him similar to what He gave the first man, he would have acted in the same fashion. The reward for both of them will be the same. A third person is one, whom Allāh gives wealth but He does not give knowledge. Therefore, he spends money according to his desire. Another man says that if Allāh had given him, what He had given that person, he would have acted in the same manner. These two will have the same burden upon them.”’ (Ibn Majah with a good chain).

One who has a pious intention is rewarded, as though for a good deed; and one who has an evil intention will bear its burden; as though for an impious deed.

The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: ‘If two Muslims meet each other with their swords, then both the killer and the killed will be in the Hell-fire.’ Someone said: “O Allāh’s Messenger, that is the case of the killer, but why should that be the case for the killed?” He answered: “Because he wanted to kill his companion.”’ (Bukhari and Muslim).

As you can see, intention is an essential component of deeds, and a condition for the validity of a deed. It is not simply a statement: ‘I intend such and such….’; nor yet a mere thought. Rather, it is the driving force behind every deed.

Islam does not teach – and this is worth noting – that an evil act can be changed into a virtuous one merely by a good intention. For example, one who sins against a person just to make another feel better has disobeyed Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). His ‘good intention’ will not benefit him at all.

I hope this helps.
 
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Niblo

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Ok so we are still waiting for a muslim definition of what freedom is.


Hello, Mindlight.

Islam teaches that every person is born free, in a pure state of nature: free from sin; free from any taint of racial or social inferiority; pure in the sight of their Creator. Our right of freedom is sacred as long as we do not violate (wilfully) the laws of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); or the rights of others.

The Islamic concept of freedom is built on the following fundamental principles: That a person’s conscience is subject to Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) alone; that we (and we alone) are responsible for our personal deeds; that we are entitled to reap the fruits of our labours; that we are free to decide for ourselves; and that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has provided sufficient spiritual guidance (and the necessary rational qualities) to enable us to make responsible and sound choices.

I hope this helps.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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To the OP its interesting that positive freedom in Christianity ty is "love" which I have linked to "priya" (beloved) - the etymological root of the term freedom. But that's an aside. Ill look at some Islamic parallels.

In some sufi styled Islam a lover of Allah is called an Ashik ( The Language of the Future | Sufi Terminology and Ishq - Wikipedia ) and a true lover is loved by Allah, because he keeps the commandments and avoids the sins.

This seems to be different from Christian love in that such seems to be an unconditional love of all (no law no rules only love?), whereas Allah's love is constructive and preserving in a structured manner. IIRC Allah does not love the sinners. They are under his punishment, in that virtue is rewarding and healthy etc.

"Tell My servants that they should always say what is best. Satan stirs up discord among them. Surely, Satan is an outright enemy to man." This enmity is consistent with the idea that freedom is by implication freedom from addictions and all kinds of harm as the OP mentioned.


For etyomogy of hub (love) see :


"Interestingly, the most common word for love in Arabic, 'hubb', comes from the same root as the word ‘seed’ – that which has the potential to grow into something beautiful." A few surprising facts about the Arabic language | British Council

and

A Taste of Honey


....
The devil leads you to poverty it is said (spiritual and physical), but piety (keeping the law internally and externally basically put) as a rule brings health and prosperity. When I converted I was shocked to know a Muslim loves the right but also hates what is wrong. After a Christianised upbringing I was a little sceptical of the spiritual worth of hatred. But there you go.

So if this freedom related to "priya" or beloved etymologically, to the Muslim love and therefore such freedom is found in all good healthy useful productive and preserving things.

Yet. The arabic term barion is the closest to freedom I can find, and has various connotations:
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

eg.


And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

also there's innocence, freedom, dissociation, disown etc.

There's no love connoted in a direct sense, but its implied in the structure of the deen (lifestyle).
 
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Niblo

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To the OP its interesting that positive freedom in Christianity ty is "love" which I have linked to "priya" (beloved) - the etymological root of the term freedom. But that's an aside. Ill look at some Islamic parallels.

In some sufi styled Islam a lover of Allah is called an Ashik ( The Language of the Future | Sufi Terminology and Ishq - Wikipedia ) and a true lover is loved by Allah, because he keeps the commandments and avoids the sins.

This seems to be different from Christian love in that such seems to be an unconditional love of all (no law no rules only love?), whereas Allah's love is constructive and preserving in a structured manner. IIRC Allah does not love the sinners. They are under his punishment, in that virtue is rewarding and healthy etc.

Hello.

Concerning the notion that God’s love is ‘unconditional’:

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary ‘unconditional’ means: ‘Not limited in any way; complete and absolute; unqualified.’

Taking this definition, we would have to say that ‘unconditional love’ means that no matter what we do or don't do, we will continue to be loved in exactly the same way. Applying this expression to God means that whatever we do – good or evil – does not matter, and we can expect Him to love us just exactly as He always has. I’ve heard many Christians say (and I’ve said it myself, many times): ‘God loves you no matter what you’ve done, no matter what you do.’

This statement has a certain appeal to it. It sounds like it ought to be true. However, those who are versed in scripture know it is a misguidance; and quite unbiblical.

There are more than eight-hundred mentions of ‘love’ in the Bible; none of which states, or even implies, that the Exalted's love is unconditional.

We are agreed (I’m sure) that God is Love; that He is the epitome and definition of love. We are agreed (I’m sure) that His benevolence to humankind is a manifestation of His love. However, His love must work in unison with His other attributes, such as justice and mercy (undoubtedly we are agreed on this).

These are the reported words of Yeshua (radhiAllahu'anhu): ‘Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.’ (John 15: 9-10).

This is Yeshua speaking (allegedly) as ‘God’. You cannot fail to notice the conditional words in this declaration: ‘If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.’ Christians insist that only those who keep Yeshua’s commandments abide in his love; that those who fail to keep his commandments do not abide in his love, and are lost. What they are describing is conditional love, and there is no getting around that fact.

Exponents of the ‘uncondition love’ notion quote this verse in support of their claim: ‘For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son.’ (John 3: 16). However, they choose to omit (for their own reasons) the words that follow: ‘….so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.’ These words make it clear that only those who believe will be given eternal life; those who do not will perish. This is conditional love.

These are some of the people that God loves, according to Scripture:

The righteous (Psalm 146: 8); those who love Him (Daniel 9:4); those who pursue righteousness (Proverbs. 15:9); those of His servants who are faithful (1 Kings: 8: 23); those who trust in Him (Psalm 32: 10); those who keep His commandments (Daniel 9: 4); those (according to Christianity) who who show that their love for Yeshua is genuine by obeying His teachings (John 14: 21-23); cheerful givers (2 Cor 9: 7); those who love their brothers (1 John 3: 1,10).

If God’s love is unconditional why does the Bible not teach that He loves everyone, regardless of what they say or do? Why so many different qualifiers? The reason for the presence of these qualifiers is that He does not love everyone; and the reason He does not love them is because of what they say and do.

These are some of the people that God hates, again according to Scripture:

Those with haughty eyes; those with lying tongues; those who shed innocent blood; those who devise wicked schemes; whose feet that are quick to rush into evil; who bear false witnesses; who stir up dissensions (cf Proverbs 6: 16-19); the wicked person, and all who do evil (Psalm 5: 5); those who love violence (Psalm 11: 5); those who worship other gods (Jerimiah 44: 3-4); those who are wicked (Hebrews 1: 9); those who burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to gods (Deuteronomy 12: 31); one who plots evil against his neighbor, or who swears falsely (Zechariah 8:17).

As you can see, the ‘God of unconditional love’ hates certain people for many good reasons. Moreover, He is capable of loving certain people ‘today’ and ‘hating’ them ‘tomorrow’:

‘I have withdrawn my blessing, my love, and my pity from this people.’ (Jeremiah 16: 5; and again: ‘I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, that I should at all forgive them.’ (Hosea 1: 6); and yet again: ‘Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.’ (Hosea 9: 15).

Like it or not, God says to us (today) what He has always said: ‘Here is what I expect of you, and in return, here is what I will give to you. If you fulfill your part of the contract between us I will fulfill Mine.’

This condition includes His mercy for us. He promises as much: ‘You shall, therefore, carefully observe the commandments, the statutes and the decrees which I enjoin on you today. As your reward for heeding these decrees and observing them carefully, the Lord, your God, will keep with you the merciful covenant which he promised on oath to your fathers.’ (Deuteronomy 7: 11-12).

We might wish to argue (following Paul) that nothing can separate us from God’s love: ‘What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8: 35, 37-39).

However, Paul also says this: ‘Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.’ (Romans 11: 22).

The same loving God who reveals Himself to those who believe in Him will show absolute severity to those who continue to live in sin and rebellion against Him. The words ‘if you continue’ are proof positive that there are conditions to His love, even for the Christian!

There is only one God. Both the Bible and the Qur’an make it abundantly clear – for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear – that His love is not unconditional. It is covenantal.

God’s love is covenantal. This means that if we want to continue to experience His love, we have to meet His conditions. His love is eternal, and it is constant; but He has made it crystal clear what He loves and what He hates; whom He loves and whom He hates.

Unconditional love is the relationship we must have toward God – not God toward us. We are His servants and He is our Master. He owes us nothing.

Very best regards.
 
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DWA2DAY

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If God’s love is unconditional why does the Bible not teach that He loves everyone, regardless of what they say or do? Why so many different qualifiers? The reason for the presence of these qualifiers is that He does not love everyone; and the reason He does not love them is because of what they say and do.

Hi Niblo
You make some interesting points, yet you have failed to factor the issue of ones sin.
You see the when honouring the truin God of the Bible Christians understand there is a consequences to sin and this debit must be paid. Most Muslim agree on this by balance there good deeds against there bad.
Add to this a life we hope for, that is eternity with Jesus or what you call paradise. Thus we understand we are not of this world but are simply in this world. God the father is a pure begin and is thus the essence of love, therefore can not be in the presence of sin.
To make this relationship work and be fruitful it requires a reciprocal love from us. A love that is such that by doing Gods will and are freed from sin.
Gods promises is true, repent (turn away from sin) and believe in Jesus you will be saved. Yes so Gods love is conditional, but in essence it is true love because he has created all of us with the free will to chose. What better offer of love can one have than, here is your rewards all I require from you is to believe in me.

Note must be made here unlike Allah who reserves the right to break his promise, The father, through His Son (Jesus) and with the help of the Holy Spirit is faithful to His promises.

Therefor set before you today is an offer one should not refuse.
 
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Niblo

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Hi Niblo
.


Hi Doug.

You say that I have ‘failed to factor the issue of one’s sin.’

I wrote that God hates those with haughty eyes (pride); those with lying tongues; those who shed innocent blood; those who devise wicked schemes; whose feet that are quick to rush into evil; who bear false witnesses; who stir up dissensions; the wicked person, and all who do evil; those who love violence; those who burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to gods; and those who plot evil against their neighbours, or who swear falsely. Plenty of sin here, don’t you think?

You write: ‘You see when honouring the triune God of the Bible…………’

There is no ‘triune’ God of the Bible.

As you know, a number of New Testament verses are cited in support of the doctrine of the Trinity. The following are the most ‘supportive’ (I’ll deal with each in its turn):

The first is this: ‘For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.’ (1 John 5:7-8).

It is a teaching of the Catholic Church that: ‘(The) Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation’ (‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’ Ludwig Ott page 74). Ott cites the following ‘Trinitarian’ verses: Matthew 3:16-17; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Matt 17:5; 2 Peter 1:17; Matt 28:19; Luke 1:35; John 14:6; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Cor 13:13; Ephesians 4:4-6. To which can be added John 16:17 and 28.

You may wonder why Ott does not include 1 John 5:7-8.

These verses contain what is known as the ‘Comma Ioanneum’ (shown above in red):

Here’s a quote: ‘It (the ‘Comma Ioanneum’) was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament.’ (Anthony and Richard Hanson: ‘Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith; page 171).

The ‘Comma Ioanneum’ is spurious, and yet for centuries the Catholic Church insisted it be included in 1 John 5:7-8; on the grounds that it had become official Church teaching. In 1927, the Church declared: ‘After careful examination of the whole circumstances that its genuineness could be denied’ (Ott page 56). This is why Ott doesn’t cite it. This is why my Bible - a Catholic Bible (The New Jerusalem) reads: ‘So there are three witnesses, the Spirit, water and blood; and the three of them coincide.’

Strangely enough, another Bible approved by the Church (the Douay Rheims) does include the Comma Ioanneum. A case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

The second is this: ‘Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ (Matthew 28:19).

The Unitarian argument against this verse is that Eusebius (c260-c341), Bishop of Caesarea and ‘Father of Church History’ makes no mention of it his ‘Ecclesiastical History’, but instead writes: ‘But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME’ (Chapter 5, Section 2).

Nor does Eusebius mention the formula in his ‘Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine’, writing: ‘What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations IN MY NAME.’ (Chapter 16, Section 8).

Unitarians offer this as proof that the formula ‘In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ did not exist in Eusebius’ day, but was introduced later.

It is agreed that the early Christians baptised only in the name of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām). This suggests that the command to baptise people ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ did not exist in the very early days. Not in writing, and not in the collective memory of the believers.

In a footnote in the New Jerusalem Bible we find: This formula is probably a reflection of the liturgical usage established later in the primitive community. It will be remembered that Act speaks of baptising ‘in the name of Jesus.’

You speak of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) as though there are two Gods. There is only one God; to claim otherwise is (seriously) unbiblical.

Millions of Arab and non-Arab Christians (e.g. some thirty million Javanese and Sudanese Christians) worship God as ‘Allāh’ - and believe Him to be the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In spite of the apparent differences in how God is understood according to Biblical and Qur’anic content, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims together have been addressing God as ‘Allāh’ for the last fourteen centuries (and Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians for far longer than this).

The question that Trinitarians should be asking is why do Jews, Biblical Unitarians and Muslims not accept their version of the nature of God. But this is not the topic here; and so I mention it only in passing (with apologies to Mindlight).

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Paul.
 
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