Uncle Siggy
Promulgator of Annoying Tidbits of Information
Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech
Which leads back to my earlier comment about people voting to enslave themselves. tsk, tsk, tsk...
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Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech
What standard of measurement have you created for morality?Sorry, I don't understand your subjective morals comment. I have a moral system, which allows me to make moral assessments, as opposed to people who get their morals through their religion, and do what they are told, because they were told. Their morality is no different than a dog's. A dog has been told to not jump on the couch, he knows he shouldn't, and he doesn't, but he has no idea why not. That is religious morality: Your God tells you what to do, and you call it moral, and do it, regardless of what he tells you to do.
I do not doubt your finding. All I know is that I have actively participated in the church here in Canada for decades - including participation in public proclamations of the gospel - and I have never been restrained by law. I will agree that, in all likelihood, you are more "free" in the USA. But any legal constraints on the "reasonable" public expression of faith here in Canada are, I believe quite minimal indeed.
Why is this in American Politics when it is clearly Canadian?
Which leads back to my earlier comment about people voting to enslave themselves. tsk, tsk, tsk...
Looks like you Johnny Canucks got us beat. From Here:
Canada ranked first for ‘personal freedom’ by annual prosperity index
HERE is the study along with the full methodology. Canada ranks as a freer country than the USA in every category I believe. Darn socialists!
I think it's disingenuous to present oneself as a minister of Christ and His Gospel if one believes in neithe..r. By definition a Christian is one who believes in and/or follows Jesus the Christ. If one does not believe Jesus is the Christ, then calling oneself a Christian is either dishonest or redefining words to the point of meaninglessness.-CryptoLutheran
For those interested, the statement of faith for the UCC does have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the statement.
Edit add SoF: http://www.united-church.ca/history/overview/webelieve
So why there is a debate on whether or not an atheist can be a member let alone a minister in the UCC is a bit odd.
Unless someone has a reference where the UCC has recanted believing in God as a requirement for ordination or baptism?
If not.....
View attachment 169007
It is a scandal that any Christian denomination would not immediately anathematize an atheist minister.
United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister
By Allison Barron ChristianWeek Correspondent | September 2, 2015
TORONTO, ON—An ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) recently stated that she believes in neither God nor the Bible. Gretta Vosper, minister of West Hill United Church, says that how you live is more important than what you believe.
“The belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God is one such presupposition that must be let go if we are going to seek the truth,” Vosper writes in her book, With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe.
The majority of her congregation supported her views until a decision to remove the Lord’s Prayer from the service in 2008 prompted two thirds of the congregation to leave. The remaining members of the congregation support her.
David W. Allen, Executive Secretary of the Toronto Conference of the UCC, says there is no single reaction to what Vosper is saying, either within the UCC or outside of it.
“Some people find her refreshing and candid, and have expressed appreciation for the care they have received from her and the West Hill United Church congregation,” says Allen. “Others, though, have expressed serious doubts about how a minister can say some of the things she says about God and Jesus, and still function as a minister within the church.”
Allen recognizes that this is a stressful time for Vosper and many others—no matter where they stand on what she says. He encourages those who are invested in the matter to maintain thoughts and/or prayers for Vosper and also for the United Church of Canada.
“My hope is that at the end of the process, we’ll have a good reason for maintaining her as a minister – or we’ll have a good reason for saying she is not to continue in that role,” says Allen. “What we have not done is to pre-judge the outcome and we, like many others, await the recommendations that will eventually come to us.”
The Toronto Conference initiated a review of Vosper, which she has appealed using the process outlined by the UCC’s General Secretary. The Toronto Conference has suspended the review until the results of the appeal are known, anticipating the outcome sometime this fall.
http://www.christianweek.org/united-church-of-canada-responds-to-atheist-minister/
I believe in a non-literal interpretation of scripture. Am I an atheist? No. She was a fool to remove the Lord's Prayer from the service however IMO - it is entirely compatible with a non-literal interpretation of scripture.
I've lived in the south. People don't get lynched for "coming out" as atheists, and they'd only do that to their families anyway. And if the parents disown them, then that's the parents' problem, not the entire society or Christianity as a whole.Not necessarily. Social pressure and stigma are legitimate issues. A pastor or anyone in some position leadership who has lost faith may have legitimate fears about letting that information become public. It might be that the church is the only real social community they are really a part of, and potentially losing an entire community of friends and family is hardly a small issue. To what degree this might happen largely depends on the sort of church we're talking about, and what sort of community it is, both the smaller church community as well as possibly the larger civil community.
I've never lived in nor have I visited the American Bible Belt, but I've certainly heard plenty of stories from people who came out as non-religious or atheist, or who otherwise don't conform to the general Christian milieu. The reality is that in some places coming out as a non-believer, even for just a lay-person, can be a serious issue that can radically change the dynamics of the person's life, including how they are treated and may end up losing close friends or even have family turn on them. Those things really do happen and it's absolutely tragic.
Depending on the sort of religious environment, coming out as an atheist can have almost as many negative consequences socially as coming out as gay. Too many churches function as fortresses of sub-cultural conformity, rather than acting as sanctuaries of respite and compassion.
-CryptoLutheran
You see no issue with an atheist being a pastor of a Christian church?
If she were a non-realistic Christian AKA a Christian atheist I wouldn't have a problem with it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/christianatheism.shtml
What miracles? Who are you to say non-realist Christianity isn't Christianity? I know I'm a Christian. Who draws the line as to where non-literal interpretation of scripture should end?Unfortunately the above is not Christianity and the UCC has a statement of belief and catechism upholding the miracles of Christ and His Deity.
What miracles? Who are you to say non-realist Christianity isn't Christianity? I know I'm a Christian. Who draws the line as to where non-literal interpretation of scripture should end?
ETA. Do you know how irritating it is to have to scroll past your massive sig in order to read original content?
United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister
By Allison Barron ChristianWeek Correspondent | September 2, 2015
TORONTO, ON—An ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) recently stated that she believes in neither God nor the Bible. Gretta Vosper, minister of West Hill United Church, says that how you live is more important than what you believe.
“The belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God is one such presupposition that must be let go if we are going to seek the truth,” Vosper writes in her book, With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe.
The majority of her congregation supported her views until a decision to remove the Lord’s Prayer from the service in 2008 prompted two thirds of the congregation to leave. The remaining members of the congregation support her.
David W. Allen, Executive Secretary of the Toronto Conference of the UCC, says there is no single reaction to what Vosper is saying, either within the UCC or outside of it.
“Some people find her refreshing and candid, and have expressed appreciation for the care they have received from her and the West Hill United Church congregation,” says Allen. “Others, though, have expressed serious doubts about how a minister can say some of the things she says about God and Jesus, and still function as a minister within the church.”
Allen recognizes that this is a stressful time for Vosper and many others—no matter where they stand on what she says. He encourages those who are invested in the matter to maintain thoughts and/or prayers for Vosper and also for the United Church of Canada.
“My hope is that at the end of the process, we’ll have a good reason for maintaining her as a minister – or we’ll have a good reason for saying she is not to continue in that role,” says Allen. “What we have not done is to pre-judge the outcome and we, like many others, await the recommendations that will eventually come to us.”
The Toronto Conference initiated a review of Vosper, which she has appealed using the process outlined by the UCC’s General Secretary. The Toronto Conference has suspended the review until the results of the appeal are known, anticipating the outcome sometime this fall.
United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister - ChristianWeek