More issues to mention: The selling of goods in church

[98cwitr]

So the pastor of this church is big into the "fair trade" goods and believes they are for a good cause Fair trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I agree too. I walked out of church this morning, and into the main hall, to find several tables with "fair trade" coffee and chocolate for sale there. It's good coffee (the pastor provided me a pound as a house warming gift several weeks ago), but it really got my feathers ruffled to see items for sale in a church. Let's turn to the Bible for a moment:

Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33, Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27 and Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8

Granted, this isn't on the same lines...but to a degree it is. What bothered me even more was when I asked one of the pastor's siblings "Do you think Jesus would flip this table over?" the sibling replied "No, I think Jesus would say, let me get some coffee!"

I think I just need to find a more conservative church. Or am I being to legalistic here?

 

[wpbarrett]

the question to ask yourself is does it help people in need ? if it still bothers you it might be time to make a change. hope it works out for you.

 

[tansy]

Not sure if I can post here as I'm not specifically a Baptist - but just to point out that, apart from any other consideration, Jesus said that they had made the temple a den of thieves. As selling Fair Trade items is to help in not exploiting people, and give them better wages, I don't think it comes under the category of thieving.
You could approach the mimister, if you (and anyone else) is still uncomfortable about this, and see if maybe the goods could be sold in the church hall or another room or something, if there is one available.

 

[marklbernard]

So the pastor of this church is big into the "fair trade" goods and believes they are for a good cause Fair trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I agree too. I walked out of church this morning, and into the main hall, to find several tables with "fair trade" coffee and chocolate for sale there. It's good coffee (the pastor provided me a pound as a house warming gift several weeks ago), but it really got my feathers ruffled to see items for sale in a church. Let's turn to the Bible for a moment:

Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33, Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27 and Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8

Granted, this isn't on the same lines...but to a degree it is. What bothered me even more was when I asked one of the pastor's siblings "Do you think Jesus would flip this table over?" the sibling replied "No, I think Jesus would say, let me get some coffee!"

I think I just need to find a more conservative church. Or am I being to legalistic here?

In understanding what Jesus did in the Temple, you must understand the Temple structure. Where the buying and selling was taking place was in the outer court or the "court of the gentiles". Essentially by the Jews buying and selling here, they where showing utter contempt for the Gentiles, and making it clear that God, was not interested in the gentiles and they where not a part of Gods redemptive plan, this give Jesus words even more relevance

Mark 11:17 (ESV)
17 And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

In saying this, I have a great problem with the amount of merchandising going on in the church, especially when I hear of one preacher installing a $20000 toilet (How can a toilet be $20,000). If I ever became a minister, I will follow Paul's Example, not that there is anything wrong with making a living from the Gospel, but the word of God should have free course so that no one is prevented from it.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^and that's why I think I might be being a bit too harsh. I guess if it is a "good" thing, and not relational to animal sacrifice or churning a profit, but for a good cause then it's ok. At the same time, I know that it is one thing to promote something, it's another to sell it inside the church.

 

[Ave Maria]

I assume that the OP thinks his church has committed the sin if "simony". Well, the sin of simony is the buying and selling of spiritual things such as grace.

 

[98cwitr]

I assume that the OP thinks his church has committed the sin if "simony". Well, the sin of simony is the buying and selling of spiritual things such as grace.

no, i dont think that. I referring to, plainly, the buying and selling of goods in church...this is all.

 

[Apeleutheros]

Yes, I have a hard time with this sort of thing myself.

There is a verse in a synoptic, that doesn't state anything about "den of thieves" but it says "You've turned my Father house into a house of merchandise"

The Greek word used emporion and is where we derive the word emporium. Has nothing to do with exploitation, but merchandising in general.

Maybe it may seem legalistic, but it turns my stomach when the ladies in the church do bake sales or when the church does a yard sale. I refuse to help, buy anything, or to contribute to it in anyway.

I run the youth ministry and sometimes we do fund raisers, but I when I do a car wash or something I just set out a donation bucket. If you want a free car wash your welcome to it, and if you donate thank you.

You'd be surprised to see how much more money I get for the youth than those youth groups who charge per car.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I would raise the objection that our church buildings are not the New Covenant analog to the Temple, so even if we conclude it's wrong to sell goods of any kind in God's house, that building isn't God's house to begin with.

 

[dies-l]

A couple of things (which have already been mentioned):

1) The modern church building is not analogous to the Temple.
2) Jesus' concern was not that things were being sold; it was how things were being sold. The moneychangers and the sellers of sacrificial animals were exploiting outsiders. Fair trade is about providing an alternative to the exploitive practices of modern industry.

Frankly, I don't think that the two situations are analogous at all.

 

[98cwitr]

1) I disagree...God's house is God's house, it can be in my home for all that matters. Church is not a place or thing, it is the gathering of people to show worship, praise, and interest in God. Church to me is more a verb than a noun

2) See, I agree and it still bothers me...I know how quickly lines can get blurred in these types of situations. But in an absolute sense, and staying in present tense, you're right.

 

[spiersdodgerblue]

If this does not sit right with your soul, than I would fine another place to worship.

 

[98cwitr]

but it's not a matter of my own perception, it is a matter of truth...of right and wrong.

 

[dies-l]

but it's not a matter of my own perception, it is a matter of truth...of right and wrong.

I agree and disagree. As with all moral and ethical questions, I do believe that there is an objectively right answer. At the same time, I believe that, for any given issue, many people's understanding is wrong (including very often, my own). So, what are we to do knowing that there is a right answer and that we may be incorrect in our understanding of it? My thought is that we each have a will to respond as we feel appropriate. We should search the Scripture and seek wise counsel to determine, to the best of our ability what the Truth is, and then we should act on our belief. While we should be prepared to defend our beliefs and the resulting actions, we need also keep in mind the possibility that our belief is still just a belief that is subject to reformulation. We should hold firmly to our beliefs so that we are not tossed by every wind of human opinion, but we should maintain an open mind that allows us to admit when we are wrong.

So, how does this relate to the topic at hand? It sounds like you are convinced that what your church is doing is wrong. I disagree with you, but that is beside the point for now. Your task is to figure out what to do about it. I am not a big fan of the "if you don't like something your church does, then leave" attitude, because I don't believe that there exists a perfect congregation anywhere, and if there were, I probably wouldn't like it. Rather, perhaps the best option is to speak to your pastor or another leader about your concerns and see where that takes you.

 

[98cwitr]

bad part is the pastor is my girlfriend's sister...haha.

Fact of the matter is that i am NOT convinced that it is wrong...I am making an assumption based on my interpretation (literal) of Scripture. I posted this thread to gain other viewpoints from people more or less wiser than myself regarding these matters.

I'm not looking for a perfect congregation...I am seeking truth. This is all I am doing at this point in my faith.

 

[jackiedk]

From My upbringing in the black baptist church, folks did't have much money to fund church affairs ,, so they would sell church dinners to raise money.. I personally don't like it, vbecause we church folks can find money to go to Disney world etc

 

[1611AV]

So the pastor of this church is big into the "fair trade" goods and believes they are for a good cause . I agree too. I walked out of church this morning, and into the main hall, to find several tables with "fair trade" coffee and chocolate for sale there. It's good coffee (the pastor provided me a pound as a house warming gift several weeks ago), but it really got my feathers ruffled to see items for sale in a church. Let's turn to the Bible for a moment:

Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33, Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27 and Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8

Granted, this isn't on the same lines...but to a degree it is. What bothered me even more was when I asked one of the pastor's siblings "Do you think Jesus would flip this table over?" the sibling replied "No, I think Jesus would say, let me get some coffee!"

I think I just need to find a more conservative church. Or am I being to legalistic here?

I have been there and after much prayer and self examination...Here is the way I see it:

Because you first asked "Do you think Jesus would flip this table over?" You invited a quick, probably guilt filled answer from the pastors sibling. Your question was probably viewed as judgmental. I to have seen our church sell stuff in the main hall and had the same thoughts so I am in no way judging you. LOL.

But, While in the church service that day, did you sing all the Hymns raising your voice with all your heart? Did you listen to every word that the Pastor said or did your mind wonder at all? Did you pray for anyone besides yourself? Did you bring a Bible to church? Did you welcome the new visitors and make them feel welcome? Did you pray for the lost?

After Church did you read your Bible that day? Did you pass out any tracts? Did you share the Gospel with anyone that day? ect...

We have to remember that we are ALL Sinners and come short of the Glory of God. Don't leave your Church because of a dumb answer you received from the Pastors sibling. If the Preacher is a true man of God and the Preaching is filled with truth, if the church has a heart for the lost and is lead by the Holy Spirit. Please stay where God has put you. He (God) will let you know when and if it's time to leave the church.

You may go to a church were no stuff is sold in the main hall but the preacher is not a true man of God but can tickle the ears of the members so that they feel good enough about themselves that they keep coming back for more.

I say these things out of experience. I left my church for reasons like this and have since returned after the Lord dealt with my own heart and has shown me that these other things that I used to concern myself about such as merchandise sold in the main hall were no where as bad as the "merchandise" I have in my own heart.

Don't let the enemy put a stumbling block in front of you.

I don't like stuff sold in the main hall either but I don't let that stop me from going to my church anymore. Pray for your church and Pastor. If they start selling stuff in the main Church itself then you may have an issue.

Your Brother in the Lord Jesus.

 

[DesertJoe]

Just a little historical background that might help.In those days there was a business going on in the court of the gentiles,which was the outermost court of the temple.It was called "Annas' bazaar".Annas was the father-in-law of Caiaphus,the high priest of the time.The business consisted of 2 main parts.All temple taxes had to be paid in temple currency,that being shekels.(remember the 30 pieces of silver paid to Judas Iscariot).The money changers would change Denarii (the common currency of the time in that part of the world) to shekels.They did this not as a service to the worshippers,but they made a profit doing it.The 2nd part of the business was selling animals for sacrifice.This was done with the help of the ones inspecting the animals that the worshippers had brought for sacrifice & declaring them blemished when they weren't so that the worshippers would end up having to buy a sacrifice from the sellers there.What greatly angered Jesus was that the priests & levites were using the house of God to enrich themselves.Not only that,they were doing it dishonestly.As pertaining to your question,I cannot judge the heart or the motives of those who are doing this.It really saddens me though on a personal level that churches nowadays do this.I believe that it is a stumbling block for many.Paul said that he would not eat meat sacrificed to idols,not because it was wrong,but because it might make some stumble.I think it is laudable to help the needy in other countries.Are we taking them the gospel in the process by the way?Just to wisely deal with the issue,I think that it might be more appropriate to sell somewhere other than the entry to the sanctuary,because that is the equivalent to the court of the gentiles.That is just a personal belief on my part, but we should have no apperance of evil (1st Thessolonians 5:22 ''Abstain from all appearance of evil." kjv) I hope this helps.

 

[98cwitr]

3 years later...still happening...still bugging the snot out of me.

Reviewing the OP, I forgot to mention John 2:16.

Im trying to find the courage to bring it up tactfully and without resentment in my approach....if the Lord wills it. Probably is that I am not an official member of the church (my reasons should be obvious). My now fiance is the interim youth minister and is heavily involved in the activities of the church staff and congregation. I left early today.

 

[dies-l]

3 years later...still happening...still bugging the snot out of me.

Reviewing the OP, I forgot to mention John 2:16.

Im trying to find the courage to bring it up tactfully and without resentment in my approach....if the Lord wills it.

I'd still ask if you find the sales to be exploitative. Does the pastor make people feel like Jesus will bless them or be more favorable to them if they buy the goods? Does she make them feel guilty if they don't want to buy the stuff? Does the church make an unreasonable profit? Or is it just being offered as an option for people who want it?