Miracles, demons and the supernatural

[truefiction1]

I will have to read more about him than I have so far, but he seem to have been an interesting person... "falling into our bodies", huh?

He believed and taught the "preexistence of souls", which was a belief that had arisen in Greek philosophy but was not what the Church had taught, which is that a human being's soul comes into existence at conception.

 

[dqhall]

In Mark 1:30, Peter's mother in law was sick. Jesus went and laid hands on her for God to heal her. This fever was a sickness. Malaria and infectious diseases such as cholera were reported in the region during the 19th century. This fever was not described as demon possession.

People who yelled out strange things out of order in public or assemblies were described as demon possessed. There was a man who called himself legion, for he thought he had a hundred demons in him. This was recorded in the Synoptic Gospels. He lived in tombs cut into rocky hillsides and was very fierce, even attacking himself by cutting himself with sharp stones. The man could not live in towns. He had been put in restraints numerous times. Sometimes it is obsession with fighting and war that makes people misbehave. I often meditated about the man named legion and thought perhaps the account became twisted. It is true some people who were mentally ill and rude or violent to people became tame and gentle after being visited by Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

I have seen a few miracles over the years. It is possible for an imperfect person to witness miracles. The people of Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida saw them. I saw other people were being made well and I remained sick. Improved health is the miracle I longed for. Studying books about health helped, but was not enough. I started to date a Christian widow who had been a nurse before. My blood pressure started to drop. For me it was a miracle.

 

[Gilberto Alicea]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

Some People have a misunderstanding of the things that happen in this earth when Jesus came to this earth . The bible speaks about a king his kingdom and his Royal family , the bible speaks how they are blind they see but can't see they hear but can't hear ,thé things that are writing in the bible they bare witness of the truth like Jesus bare witness of the Father and everything that was written in the old testament was regarding him so basicly he saying look is me everything that was written was about me ,this people were inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. the bible says that he who doesn't belive is condemned already this is not that God is condemning them but that by denying that Jesus Christ is lord you your self have decided to live your life in unbelive their for you miss out on the reaches of the Kingdom of God . And having to live life with out Christ is a curse it self because you are not protected from your sin . The fruit off sin is all sickness and and hate and envy and all evil works things that comes from the evil one.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In the OP, the so-called Christian said it Jesus may or may not have been born of a Virgin, it doesn't matter.

Well, actually it does.

If Jesus was not born of a virgin, then Jesus was conceived through another human, a man.

This would then make Jesus, a sinner by inheritance of the sin of Adam and Eve.

However, Jesus, being God incarnate, was conceived not through a man, but through the Holy Spirit. This means Jesus was born without the sin of Adam and Eve.

Jim

 

[david.d]

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

The prophecies about Christ said he would do miracles, not metaphors.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Prophecy said he would be born of a virgin. Man cannot be divine.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind.

The demons Jesus commanded into the swine were physical manifestations, if he commanded a sickness wouldn't that be a miracle as well?

I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

Physical beings visited Abraham and two of them went on the destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

Thomas put his hand on Jesus' crucified hand...

 

[RBPerry]

What a divisive attempt to discredit the bible; refer to yourself as a Christian, then discredit the historical accounts contained in the one book that truly leads us to Christ and salvation.

2 Peter 1:16-18 (NIV) 16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

So what the op is implying that Peter and others were lying, that they did not actually witness the miracles, and the resurrected Christ. Was the op there to observe the historical accounts, of course not, he is merely attempting to discredit the biblical accounts without a shred of evidence to support his opinions. To claim to be a Christian, one must believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, not the son of Joseph.

To discredit the resurrection one must believe that the disciples overpowered the Roman guards and stole the body, and that is nuts.

I for one love apologetics, and have seen many attempts at discrediting God’s word to us, but to claim to be a follower of Christ, but deny his message is truly beyond belief.

 

[isilmë]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input, thank you.

So far not a single person even remotely share the views of the essay writer. I thought that perhaps there would be at least some that would agree on some points seeing how we come from so many different denominations and the fact that this isn't the first time I come across something similar.

That's why I asked in the first place, because I read things like this from time to time and I wonder how much someone can dilute the message of the Gospels and still feel they believe in it.

 

[Anguspure]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

(Edit: I should point out that these are not my opinions, just to be clear.)

Two particularly important supernatural events for the beleiver are the Creation:
"In the begining Elohim created the heavens and the earth."

And the bodily ressurection of Christ Jesus:
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.....If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die .” (1 Corinthians 15)

Clearly the same sort of rubbish was circulating in Corinth in the 1st century.
It never ceases to amaze how the same old oppositions that the writers of the Bible have already dealt with 2000 years ago keep on coming up over and over again.

 

[jinnettepickford]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

(Edit: I should point out that these are not my opinions, just to be clear.)

Thank you for posting.
My view is that the our faith in Christ is nothing but a miracle. We have received grace and because this our response is faith the very gift from God-not our own faith but faith in God the Father Christ the son who sends the holy spirit.
Mary was believed to have been a vergin, and there were many signs that point to this as truth. If you were to say it was only a spiritual truth- then one must question the language of that time and ask how the use of metaphor appealed and conjured the idea of faith- why weren't others using the same devices?
I'm concerned about the views your post mentions because it essentially illustrates that we are human and can only reflect according to the human agenda alone. We are not alone but entirely depending on the one God- the sovereign loving and true God who will bring all things to Christ and place them under his feet. We who have the gift and miracle are of faith are already there!

 

[Blade]

Isilmë.... on the end of what you said I agree. That is.. for God so loved the world He gave His only son that who ever believes in Him shall not die but have every lasting life. He didnt come to condemn the world .. but that the world through CHRIST shall be saved. Everything else is a blessing.

That John 3:16 gets you THROUGH Christ or in the door... AMEN ALL GLORY TO GOD YES! PRAISE YOU FATHER Song playing "Joy by Jonny Diaz"

 

[Episaw]

He calls himself a Christian so as to put the listener at ease before he proceeds to discredit the biblical accounts?
LOL! That is typically devilish behavior.

That is right Radrook. I think it is known as being an angel of light. If he went around with horns and a sceptre people would run a mile.

He is the master of deception evidenced by the demands of the homosexual SSM which he is behind.

This by the way is nothing new. People have been trying to discredit the supernatural for ever and a day. Even the church does it. They prefer degrees that is why they are emptying the church by degrees. Boom Boom.

I have seen enough and experienced enough of the supernatural to know that what he says is a load of baloney. (Australian colloquialism not intended to be offensive)

 

[Mitsi]

What I will say here may shock some of you. Others will not believe me, I am used to that. Three years after becoming a born again Christian the Lord told me I had demons and have to get them cast out. When I asked my more mature Christian friends about a deliverance minister they would laugh and tell me that I did not have demons because I was in church all the time, read my Bible and had a house meeting. I finally found a church that did deliverance and I had lots of deliverance there. At the same time the Lord put me in the deliverance ministry and I have been casting out demons since 1980.

Demons are real, Christians can be oppressed by them but not possessed, yes the demons are inside us, not "around" or "sitting in your shoulder." Deliverance is very much needed in the church, including leaders and pastors. Jesus commanded his followers to cast out demons along with preaching the gospel, healing the sick and raising the dead, and this is what churches should be doing.

 

[Mateo1041]

You might find this book interesting. It speaks directly about those who do not believe or are confused about their own Christianity. It also talks about Lutheran synods and how we got to where we are today. Well worth it.

What's Going On Among Lutherans?: A Comparison of Beliefs (Impact Series): Patsy A. Leppien, J. Kincaid Smith, Curtis A. Jahn, Clifford Koeller: 9780810004276: Amazon.com: Books

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Tomm]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

He is inspired by the devil, I reckon.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; . . .

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, . . .

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; . . .

I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings . . .

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think I know the person you speak of. He's The Father Lies.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The question is why are humans permitted to be harassed by supernatural entities. Why not limit that ability?

Read the book of Job. The Lord allows these things for several reasons. He may be trying to build up faith, real faith. He may be teaching about warfare. He may be teaching about authority. I have asked this question myself. It is when we go through these things on a personal level that we begin to get the real picture. There is a real war in the heavenlies and there is a real enemy...sometimes it is as simple as that. The Lord teaching us there is a real enemy. Ultimately it all glorifies GOD.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Read the book of Job. The Lord allows these things for several reasons. He may be trying to build up faith, real faith. He may be teaching about warfare. He may be teaching about authority. I have asked this question myself. It is when we go through these things on a personal level that we begin to get the real picture. There is a real war in the heavenlies and there is a real enemy...sometimes it is as simple as that. The Lord teaching us there is a real enemy. Ultimately it all glorifies GOD.

I don't say this lightly, being the recipient of grace, but it also may be His judgement.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I don't say this lightly, being the recipient of grace, but it also may be His judgement.

Surely it could be his judgment via his mercy and grace. If the Lord allows the enemy to attack it may be to get the person to repent, remove idols, and close doors. I did not cover all possible scenarios and don't think I could, as who can judge God and his motives.

The bible says GOD chastens those whom belong to him. I think the more disturbing thing is the Christian who claims they have never had any sort of spiritual attack....it may be they do not really belong to GOD or they enemy does not see them as a enemy or a threat.

 

[stephen583]

I am one of the few people who have witnessed an actual supernatural "demonic" possession. The strange thing was, I was working as a deputy sheriff then, and had no particular interest in religion, and no predisposition to believe in such things back in the late 1970's. So I started out as a totally objective, even skeptical party to the incident.

Over the course of a couple of nights, I was dispatched to a residence late at night to investigate a possible break-in. According to the homeowner, he was awakened by noise and voices, and found the front door standing wide open in the middle of the night.

There was no evidence of forced entry, but clear evidence of furniture and wall hangings having been moved from their normal locations. On the second night, the family dog (a collie) was discovered dead in the garage with every bone in the animals body broken. The dogs head was twisted around backwards.

How do I know for certain these events were "supernatural" in nature ? On the last occasion I was at the house, I witnessed the phenomena as it was happening. Pictures flying off the walls, chairs flying across the room, and a threatening disembodied voice that whispered, "S-t-e-p-h-en, G-e-t O-u-t".
The thing was, I hadn't told anyone my first name, and only my last name appeared on my uniform name tag.

As I later learned in conversation with a catholic priest (I'm not Catholic by the way, but I was seeking a professional opinion in such matters), the priest agreed these phenomena were consistent with the presence of a "demonic" entity.. especially the disclosure of information only I could have known.

The priest explained the purpose of such a demonstration of omnipotent and personal knowledge about me, was to instill fear and terror. If that was the case, it worked. I also met with a clinical psychologist at Slidell Memorial Hospital who felt the evidence was inconsistent with "hysterical hallucination", or a "schizophrenic" disorder. The psychologists opinion was, it fell into the category of the "paranormal". Surprisingly, it was the psychologist who actually suggested I seek the advise of religious clergy on how to deal with the matter.

While the family was packing up to move, a Ouija Board was discovered among their belongings. I took it to the priest who disposed of it , and he gave me a small crucifix to leave at the door of the house, which I did.. along with a note that read, "Whatever remains within this house is bound by this cross. Do not remove it, and do not enter here".

This is not the only time I encountered the unexplainable and supernatural in my lifetime. I have witnessed several other incredible incidents. I absolutely believe, there is a "hidden spiritual world" that co-exists along side the natural world.

 

[isilmë]

-