Miracles, demons and the supernatural

[timewerx]

The question is why are humans permitted to be harassed by supernatural entities. Why not limit that ability?

It's not an ability. You'll still be harassed if possible even if you absolutely don't believe in these things, even if you're an Atheist.

One of the lowest forms of manifestation is a compromised immune system like why even you have already done your best to stay healthy, including effective management of stress you still get sick?

The most severe form is of course, possession.

Other manifestations include more debilitating forms of disease and premature aging.

Chemical suppression is simply what medicines do but cannot cure the underlying cause. The real cure lies entirely upon the things we believe in.

 

[isilmë]

I myself don't ascribe to a "required things-to-believe" in order to be called a Christian.

I would have to agree with you, to a certain point. I would never judge whether someone is a 'true' Christian or not, that is not for me to do.

Honestly?

I think some people are too invested in the concrete things they see and so move further and further from anything "supernatural" suggested in the Scriptures. I think often something in them wants to believe, but for whatever reason, they can't accept that things might be other than what they see and expect in the natural on a daily basis.

But it leads them to embrace heresies.

I have love for some persons I know who speak like this.

But it is not the faith which we have received.

I fear it is a stepping stone to abandoning any faith in God whatsoever, maybe not in they themselves, but perhaps a generation or few removed in such teaching, as it "progresses".

How God will judge I refuse to speculate. He will do what is right. We pray for mercy on all persons (including ourselves as needing it very much!), from a good and loving God.

I totally agree with you. Many these days are way too infatuated with materialism and the like, when there're so many things that go far beyond our comprehension.

These opinions are quite common, I've come across them on several occasions, from large Christian communities and at the same time you see people leaving those communities because they feel that the faith has been diluted.

But is there an either or? I believe in the Miracles, the Resurrection and the Living Christ (for example). My faith is not something I believe in for comfort, but a way of life and transformation; a walk that is very hard at times. But I do have a difficult time grasping the notion of demons and angels as being real creatures, my opinion on the matter (so far) has been closer to that of the essay writer if I'm going to be completely honest. This is not an easy subject to deal with, at least not for me - but I want to be challenged and I welcome and try to learn from every opinion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would have to agree with you, to a certain point. I would never judge whether someone is a 'true' Christian or not, that is not for me to do.



I totally agree with you. Many these days are way too infatuated with materialism and the like, when there're so many things that go far beyond our comprehension.

These opinions are quite common, I've come across them on several occasions, from large Christian communities and at the same time you see people leaving those communities because they feel that the faith has been diluted.

But is there an either or? I believe in the Miracles, the Resurrection and the Living Christ (for example). My faith is not something I believe in for comfort, but a way of life and transformation; a walk that is very hard at times. But I do have a difficult time grasping the notion of demons and angels as being real creatures, my opinion on the matter (so far) has been closer to that of the essay writer if I'm going to be completely honest. This is not an easy subject to deal with, at least not for me - but I want to be challenged and I welcome and try to learn from every opinion.

I understand what you are saying, though I admit it's not easy to put myself in that place.

It would be nearly impossible for me to try to believe there was NOT some spiritual reality. I suppose I should be thankful for experiences in my life that have brought me to that point.

The only room I guess I have for doubt is in some of the particulars, but even that I've found a comfortable peace with.

And depending on which particulars we mean, some are not even important if I turn out to be wrong.

But I do tend to turn things over in my mind quite a bit and examine them, and on just about every point have questioned "what if I am wrong?"

It may be different for different people, so I wouldn't want to recommend it, but questions and, eventually, answers, have given me a firmer foundation, not a weakened one.

 

[timewerx]

Who is coming to see you, Andrew?

He has another thread where his friend is having a demon problem. So it's probably his friend.

 

[OcifferPls]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

That sounds a bit like Origen. I would be careful with denunciations of a deeper, spiritual truth, else you could be left with miracles as nothing more than party tricks.

 

[~Anastasia~]

He has another thread where his friend is having a demon problem. So it's probably his friend.

I see ... thank you.

 

[Radrook]

Usually, demons hide and do not manifest themselves in such a way as to reveal their existence. When they do show themselves, however, it is in order to distract us from paying attention to, and focusing on Christ, and on our own deep need for repentance and for God's grace to help us become purified of all the sin within our hearts. It is of the utmost urgency that we repent continuously, with great prayer and begging for mercy. That is why the fathers teach us to practice unceasing prayer, praying in the name of Jesus with every breath we take (the "Jesus Prayer") and to keep vigilance over all thoughts that arise so that evil fantasies are not allowed to enter into our heart and despoil it.

Thanks for the counsel. Will take it to heart. God Bless!

 

[isilmë]

I understand what you are saying, though I admit it's not easy to put myself in that place.

It would be nearly impossible for me to try to believe there was NOT some spiritual reality. I suppose I should be thankful for experiences in my life that have brought me to that point.

The only room I guess I have for doubt is in some of the particulars, but even that I've found a comfortable peace with.

And depending on which particulars we mean, some are not even important if I turn out to be wrong.

But I do tend to turn things over in my mind quite a bit and examine them, and on just about every point have questioned "what if I am wrong?"

It may be different for different people, so I wouldn't want to recommend it, but questions and, eventually, answers, have given me a firmer foundation, not a weakened one.

I guess my view is very influenced by where I come from, I have been in an environment that denies belief in spiritual beings (not in a spiritual reality, though - that I very much believe in). That's not to say that I'm at all sure, it's just hard to wrap my mind around it.

I think I need to look into the subject of demons more, I haven't really paid that much attention to it so far. The church I used to belong to never really spoke about these things, other than to warn against exorcism.

I'm very curious as to which particulars you're referring to, but I understand if you don't want to go into detail. In which case, just ignore this.

I'm the same, mulling things over in my mind; questioning, researching, trying to figure things out. Always praying that I will be led in the right direction. Right now I'm on a journey of discovery that I hope will lead me to that firmer foundation you mention.

 

[Radrook]

That sounds a bit like Origen. I would be careful with denunciations of a deeper, spiritual truth, else you could be left with miracles as nothing more than party tricks.

Wasn't Origen the dude who castrated himself due to misunderstanding one of Jesus's statements?

 

[OcifferPls]

Wasn't Origen the dude who castrated himself due to misunderstanding one of Jesus's statements?

That's the rumor. He had a strange cosmological view and interpretation of Genesis to boot. Something about "falling" into our bodies.

 

[isilmë]

That sounds a bit like Origen. I would be careful with denunciations of a deeper, spiritual truth, else you could be left with miracles as nothing more than party tricks.

I agree. Didn't he say that they are not only signs of a deeper truth, or something similar? That would mean that he said that they were very much real, yet pointing to something more profound at the same time. I would agree with that.

 

[Radrook]

That's the rumor. He had a strange cosmological view and interpretation of Genesis to boot. Something about "falling" into our bodies.

I remember reading that he repented of his castration later in life and admitted he had been wrong but the CC refused and still refuses to canonize him because of that self-mutilation. That is one heck of a gonad-wrenching mistake this fellow made!

 

[OcifferPls]

I agree. Didn't he say that they are not only signs of a deeper truth, or something similar? That would mean that he said that they were very much real, yet pointing to something more profound at the same time. I would agree with that.

It sounds familiar but I couldn't say. I just know that he picks up on subtle details and extracts a lot of information from miracles in the gospel texts.

 

[isilmë]

He had a strange cosmological view and interpretation of Genesis to boot. Something about "falling" into our bodies.

It sounds familiar but I couldn't say. I just know that he picks up on subtle details and extracts a lot of information from miracles in the gospel texts.

I will have to read more about him than I have so far, but he seem to have been an interesting person... "falling into our bodies", huh?

 

[bobharms]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

The reality of the supernatural is not for speculation, and the veracity of the Word of God is questioned by those who have not trusted in the Truth John for example set forth that Truth was a matter of understanding. "You know the Truth", and " you know the 'love'". Today Jesus is referenced by many as a historical figure. Allegorical theory is not the ground to stand on when a demon has their "hands"on your throat. All speculation goes out the window of theory and allegorical appraisal of Truth. Jesus has set us free from darkness it is quite " naive" to speculate about the supernatural. Our God is a Spirit, and Jesus manifested to reveal Him to a dark, dry world defeating Satan. I would just accept that from the Word of God, and trust the blood of atonement. Perfect love cast's out fear. Be blessed.

 

[elbato]

I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

Jesus preformed miracles to authenticate his ministry.
As for his belief that any super natural events should be considered metaphors, he is discrediting creation because creation was and is the biggest super natural event ever.

 

[2consider]

Reminds me of a line I heard in a movie, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist."
Ain't it the truth?

 

[RDKirk]

The question is why are humans permitted to be harassed by supernatural entities. Why not limit that ability?

A Christian has delegated authority to tell them to stop.

However, the great majority of the time, the problem is all in our own unrenewed minds. It's not "the devil made me do it" it's still just, "I wanted to do it."

 

[Radrook]

A Christian has delegated authority to tell them to stop.

However, the great majority of the time, the problem is all in our own unrenewed minds. It's not "the devil made me do it" it's still just, "I wanted to do it."

I disagree with your assessment of the cause.

 

[pearcekj]

Be careful when looking into the subject of demons and deliverance. Many deliverance ministries can stumble close to witchcraft and necromancy and offer dangerous teachings, without even realizing it. Remember the vagabond Jews in Acts 19. We are given authority over unclean spirits, but it has to be led by the Holy Spirit. We rebuke and stand in that authority as led but we don't start an open dialogue or get so deep into demon-hunting that we lose focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are smart and powerful and will wreck a lone wolf believer. We are to be wise as serpents and harmless as dove. There's a reason we were kept ignorant of demons throughout the Old Testament, until we were spiritually equipped with the Holy Spirit to handle them. Sweep the roaches out as led by the Holy Spirit and focus on a lifetime of discipleship to the Lord Jesus Christ.