Miracles, demons and the supernatural

isilmë

member
Dec 2, 2016
80
51
europe
✟12,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?
 
Last edited:

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,536
2,723
USA
Visit site
✟134,848.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?
He calls himself a Christian so as to put the listener at ease before he proceeds to discredit the biblical accounts?
LOL! That is typically devilish behavior.

2 Cor 11:14
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.…
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,205
5,877
✟296,878.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I myself don't ascribe to a "required things-to-believe" in order to be called a Christian.

However, I do believe miracles do take place. I have experienced a few myself. Things that cannot be explained by any rational means, even with few more witnesses other than myself.
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.
Many people identify themselves as Christian, but would God identify them as Christians? From what you are reporting that he said, he believes absolutely nothing written in the Bible. There are many like that who claim to be believers and yet reject the notion that God's will is stronger than natural law. There is a word for them; lost..
I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian.
This is heresy. If he tells that to other people pretending to have some sort of knowledge about the subject he is a false teacher. Avoid anything he has to say.

When Satan revolted against God he was cast out of heaven and with him 1/3rd of God's angels who took his side. These fallen angels became demons; loyal to Satan, cursed by God. When Christ returns and the world is judged, Satan in his angels will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. They know this, and it fills them with hatred.

Angels remained loyal to God and still serve Him. Sometimes they communicate directly with man. Some have entertained angels and have spoken with them without even knowing it. Both are very real. The Bible teaches it, and you can be confident.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?
These are heresies.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

Andrewofthetribe

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2016
815
256
Oxford
✟24,758.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?
How shall read the hearts and minds of men, who are we to judge his authority?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewofthetribe

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2016
815
256
Oxford
✟24,758.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Quick update, he is coming over to see me on Saturday. This gives me two nights to prepare. I'm going to try and reach the Holy Spirit tonight and meditate on the demon. I will let you know how I get on, it is tiring and I know not everything will be revealed to me but i have to try and help him
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I read an essay some time ago, I can't remember who wrote it, but he identified as a Christian.

He wrote that he didn't take the miracles of Jesus literally; according to him they did not actually take place, but are metaphors for something deeper; stories pointing to a spiritual truth.

He also said that the Virgin birth may or may not be true, but that it didn't matter if it wasn't; Jesus would still be divine either way.

Further more; the demons spoken about in the Bible are not actual demons but mental manifestations or metaphors for something else; a spiritual sickness for example. They are not real entities that exist outside of the mind. I think he said that angels are manifestations of God's love, but again, not real beings - not something to be seen, but moments in time when you are touched by God's hand. (That would mean that they're no supernatural beings, good or bad, in the created world; only God's love and the total rejection of God's love - darkness and evil, as experienced and created by humans).

... and lastly, he said that we don't really know what happened at the Resurrection and that there're many different possibilities, maybe the body of Christ disappeared somehow and that Christ appeared before people in spirit and not bodily.

I think the general thought was that you don't have to believe that any supernatural events took place (except for Christ appearing in spirit, I would assume) to be a Christian. That you can take all the events in the Gospels that go beyond the laws of nature as metaphors pointing to a deeper truth.

I'm interested to know what people think about this view. Is it possible to hold this view and still be considered Christian?

Honestly?

I think some people are too invested in the concrete things they see and so move further and further from anything "supernatural" suggested in the Scriptures. I think often something in them wants to believe, but for whatever reason, they can't accept that things might be other than what they see and expect in the natural on a daily basis.

But it leads them to embrace heresies.

I have love for some persons I know who speak like this.

But it is not the faith which we have received.

I fear it is a stepping stone to abandoning any faith in God whatsoever, maybe not in they themselves, but perhaps a generation or few removed in such teaching, as it "progresses".

How God will judge I refuse to speculate. He will do what is right. We pray for mercy on all persons (including ourselves as needing it very much!), from a good and loving God.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Quick update, he is coming over to see me on Saturday. This gives me two nights to prepare. I'm going to try and reach the Holy Spirit tonight and meditate on the demon. I will let you know how I get on, it is tiring and I know not everything will be revealed to me but i have to try and help him
Who is coming to see you, Andrew?
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Honestly?

I think some people are too invested in the concrete things they see and so move further and further from anything "supernatural" suggested in the Scriptures. I think often something in them wants to believe, but for whatever reason, they can't accept that things might be other than what they see and expect in the natural on a daily basis.

But it leads them to embrace heresies.

I have love for some persons I know who speak like this.

But it is not the faith which we have received.

I fear it is a stepping stone to abandoning any faith in God whatsoever, maybe not in they themselves, but perhaps a generation or few removed in such teaching, as it "progresses".

How God will judge I refuse to speculate. He will do what is right. We pray for mercy on all persons (including ourselves as needing it very much!), from a good and loving God.
I think these ideas have been around for awhile, and have been proposed by at least a few post-modern theologians who call themselves Christian. I haven't read anything by such authors myself, but I've come across mentions of them in some books I've read. My thoughts are that any system of thought that expresses beliefs that demons don't exist is the result of the efforts of demons to put such thoughts into people's minds. There first best strategy is to remain hidden from people altogether so that not many even suspect that there is any problem with their Godless lives.

Our spiritual fathers, who have much experience in resisting these malicious deceivers, have pointed this out in many places within their writings.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Quick update, he is coming over to see me on Saturday. This gives me two nights to prepare. I'm going to try and reach the Holy Spirit tonight and meditate on the demon. I will let you know how I get on, it is tiring and I know not everything will be revealed to me but i have to try and help him
Did you accidentally post this comment in the wrong thread Andrew? Is someone going to visit? Who?
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,536
2,723
USA
Visit site
✟134,848.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I myself don't ascribe to a "required things-to-believe" in order to be called a Christian.

However, I do believe miracles do take place. I have experienced a few myself. Things that cannot be explained by any rational means, even with few more witnesses other than myself.
The question is why are humans permitted to be harassed by supernatural entities. Why not limit that ability?
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not believing in the supernatural means not believing in God. It's safe to say that such a person is not a follower of the real Jesus, the Son of God.

Many people understand "faith" to be a choice of lifestyle. In this case "faith" is probably being used as a synonym for "choice of religion." A lot of people believe that the principles in Scripture are good, but haven't genuinely believed Jesus is alive today and died for their sins. Without the living God to save you, there is no salvation.

See 1 Corinthians 15:12-22+. One verse is:

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19, 1984 NIV)
 
Upvote 0

isilmë

member
Dec 2, 2016
80
51
europe
✟12,930.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Thank you for all your replies. I find this very interesting, but I don't have a lot of time to answer at this moment.

One thought that came up when reading that essay was: If you have this notion of the Bible, that so much (if not most) is myth and metaphor, then what's left in the end to believe in?

Many blessings!
 
Upvote 0

Stillicidia

Revanche Flower
Supporter
Apr 22, 2016
919
233
Mystic Meadows
✟11,021.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Constitution
I have an issue with denying what is written about angels and demons.
The Hosts of Heaven, which are warrior angels are your weapons which are not carnal, mighty to the pulling down of strongholds.
They break the teeth of the demons which cause people to doubt and cause people to do many backward things.
People don't know they have warrior angels on their side, because they deny the scripture.

I also echo Greg J. who always speaks very well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrsBrit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you have this notion of the Bible, that ... is myth and metaphor, then what's left in the end to believe in?

Indeed. That becomes the problem, sooner or later.

Morals, usually. Nothing more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: isilmë
Upvote 0

stephen583

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
2,202
913
66
Salt lake City, UT
✟24,201.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are plenty of "cults" that masquerade as being affiliated with (Christianity ?). You've pointed out one of the prime "tell tale" characteristics of these organizations. Pretending to be "illuminated" by some deeper spiritual insight, they propose odd doctrines and theology that turns the traditional tenants of Christianity on its' head.

The theology of these cults is so skewed with falsehoods, it's obvious to even the most novice Bible scholar these ideas are completely "antithetical" and "foreign" to what is plainly stated in Scripture.

Here are some other "warning signs" which I believe identify an anti-Christian cult.

(1). The founder of the organization claims he is the Second Coming, (Christ himself), the Jim Jones/David Koresh syndrome. The Scripture clearly indicates the Second Advent of Christ will in no way occur in such a manner, Christ will not be "reborn" as a man.

(2). The organization requires its' members to punish any member of the organization who openly disagrees with their beliefs. This practice is often referred to as "blood atonement for sin" and is completely inconsistent with the teachings of Christianity. This includes members alienating family who are not members of their church. Isolation of its' members from legitimate Christian theology, is characteristic of cult behavior.

(3). A religious organization is focused on its' own temporal riches, for the purpose of increasing its' infrastructure, power and influence in the world. If a religious organization requires its' members to beg for money on the street, sell books, or flowers at an airport, it is definitely not a Christian organization.

(4). A religious organization forbids its' members from any reading, or personal study of biblical text, other than by the church hierarchy. This is simply another means to isolate and control the members of a cult.

In my view, all these characteristics should represent a "red flag" to any real Christian.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The question is why are humans permitted to be harassed by supernatural entities. Why not limit that ability?
The spiritual fathers, who have vast amounts of experience in being harassed by malicious supernatural entities, specifically say that God does indeed limit that ability. God uses the demons, who are virtually blind tools in God's will even though they think they are working against the will of God, to produce spiritual growth in God's children who are on the path toward spiritual perfection.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,536
2,723
USA
Visit site
✟134,848.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The spiritual fathers, who have vast amounts of experience in being harassed by malicious supernatural entities, specifically say that God does indeed limit that ability. God uses the demons, who are virtually blind tools in God's will even though they think they are working against the will of God, to produce spiritual growth in God's children who are on the path toward spiritual perfection.
If indeed so then I am in for more of this frustration and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Thanks for the reply. Let God's will be done then in accordance with his wisdom.

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If indeed so then I am in for more of this frustration and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Thanks for the reply. Let God's will be done then in accordance with his wisdom.

God Bless.
Usually, demons hide and do not manifest themselves in such a way as to reveal their existence. When they do show themselves, however, it is in order to distract us from paying attention to, and focusing on Christ, and on our own deep need for repentance and for God's grace to help us become purified of all the sin within our hearts. It is of the utmost urgency that we repent continuously, with great prayer and begging for mercy. That is why the fathers teach us to practice unceasing prayer, praying in the name of Jesus with every breath we take (the "Jesus Prayer") and to keep vigilance over all thoughts that arise so that evil fantasies are not allowed to enter into our heart and despoil it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0