Messianic Judaism vs. Conservative Christianity

[ChavaK]

I had Jase pegged as rabbinic here to cause problems from nearly the first day I joined and blocked her shortly after. The only time I seem to respond to her is when someone else quotes her. She may have a nominal christian belief but s most definitely not Messianic.

Having spoken with Jase via PM, he holds theology close to Judaism, but believes in Jesus as the Messiah. Isn't that the definition of what a Messianic is? Not arguing, just asking...

 

[anisavta]

Suppose to be anyway.

 

[visionary]

Having spoken with Jase via PM, he holds theology close to Judaism, but believes in Jesus as the Messiah. Isn't that the definition of what a Messianic is? Not arguing, just asking...

Her "Jesus is the Messiah" is not the same as Yeshua, the King of Judaism Jew.. that is why the subforum Hebrew Christian is a better place for her.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Her "Jesus is the Messiah" is not the same as Yeshua, the King of Judaism Jew.. that is why the subforum Hebrew Christian is a better place for her.

Jase is short for "Jason." Where do you guys get that "Jase" is a woman's name? This poster is a man.

 

[anisavta]

What's their gender icon blue or pink?

 

[yedida]

Having spoken with Jase via PM, he holds theology close to Judaism, but believes in Jesus as the Messiah. Isn't that the definition of what a Messianic is? Not arguing, just asking...

That's what I thought. Now we got several in here claiming to be Messianic who think that the Torah was nailed to the cross. So I guess MJ doesn't mean beans!

 

[INTJ-F]

So now we are suppose to ignore scripture that speaks against sodomy and welcome the sodomites into our congregations because the liberal rabbis are now accepting them?

So far on CF I have seen these are parts of the bible people are ignoring:

dietary laws
fourth of the ten commandments (Shabbat)
acceptance of sodomy
earth was not created in six days God said it was created in
flood (because other works were supposedly written before Genesis and mentioned the flood)
the acceptance of necromancy (asking dead people to intercede for you)
all of Paul's writings (because people do not really understand what he said)
all of Torah (because we are "under grace")
​

In other words, on CF I have seen those who profess to be Christians and yet reject what the bible clearly says because they FEEL it does not apply to them. This is the very same thing Israel did and God punished them because of their sin.

Once people pick and choose what they want to believe and start rejecting God's word, then how can they still claim to be Christians / followers of messiah? Seems many justify their rejection of scripture because their "rabbi / pastor / priest says it's okay to accept certain sins now"

I never thought I would see the day where people justify their sin (in this day and age where everyone has access to a bible even if it's an online one) by claiming someone else said it was okay and no longer important to God.

 

[yedida]

So now we are suppose to ignore scripture that speaks against sodomy and welcome the sodomites into our congregations because the liberal rabbis are now accepting them?

So far on CF I have seen these are parts of the bible people are ignoring:

dietary laws
fourth of the ten commandments (Shabbat)
acceptance of sodomy
earth was not created in six days God said it was created in
flood (because other works were supposedly written before Genesis and mentioned the flood)
the acceptance of necromancy (asking dead people to intercede for you)
all of Paul's writings (because people do not really understand what he said)
all of Torah (because we are "under grace")
​

In other words, on CF I have seen those who profess to be Christians and yet reject what the bible clearly says because they FEEL it does not apply to them. This is the very same thing Israel did and God punished them because of their sin.

Once people pick and choose what they want to believe and start rejecting God's word, then how can they still claim to be Christians / followers of messiah? Seems many justify their rejection of scripture because their "rabbi / pastor / priest says it's okay to accept certain sins now"

I never thought I would see the day where people justify their sin (in this day and age where everyone has access to a bible even if it's an online one) by claiming someone else said it was okay and no longer important to God.

Do you have the references on the necromancy? I have always thought this to be unscriptural?

 

[INTJ-F]

Originally Posted by ChavaK

Having spoken with Jase via PM, he holds theology close to Judaism, but believes in Jesus as the Messiah. Isn't that the definition of what a Messianic is? Not arguing, just asking...
​

Only when the Judaism holds to Torah and has not rejected what God clearly says. Some Judaism denominations have become more liberal than some of the most liberal "christian" denominations.

Jase is not messianic - I saw that from the start. I also had her pegged as a liberal rabbinic Jew from the first day I became a member.

What makes you think that Messianics automatically accept what the rabbis teach? Never happened - and that's why Messianics split from rabbinic Judaism in 135 during the Bar Kokkhba Revolt

 

[yonah_mishael]

So now we are suppose to ignore scripture that speaks against sodomy and welcome the sodomites into our congregations because the liberal rabbis are now accepting them?

Have you ever met a sodomite? I think the use of that term is as bad as the n-word. It's highly offensive. How many gay or lesbian people do you know personally? Do you treat them with such hatred and disdain? Whether you accept them or not, if I were them and heard you speak like this, I would never welcome YOU in my congregation. This is shameful hate speech.

 

[INTJ-F]

Do you have the references on the necromancy? I have always thought this to be unscriptural?

It is unscriptural - and yet is acceptable in some "christian" churches

Deuteronomy 18


10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Have you ever met a sodomite? I think the use of that term is as bad as the n-word. It's highly offensive. How many gay or lesbian people do you know personally? Do you treat them with such hatred and disdain? Whether you accept them or not, if I were them and heard you speak like this, I would never welcome YOU in my congregation. .

There was actually an article I remembered checking out that noted that "Gay" is now considered to be the new "n-word"---as seen here.

 

[ChavaK]

What makes you think that Messianics automatically accept what the rabbis teach?

I don't think they should. However, if someone is trying to blend Judaism and Christianity- in all their forms-it seems to me that is what the definition of a Messianic is.

Guess I'm wrong, though....won't be the first or last time, LOL.

 

[INTJ-F]

Have you ever met a sodomite? I think the use of that term is as bad as the n-word. It's highly offensive. How many gay or lesbian people do you know personally? Do you treat them with such hatred and disdain? Whether you accept them or not, if I were them and heard you speak like this, I would never welcome YOU in my congregation. This is shameful hate speech.

That's what God calls them - are you claiming His words to be "hate speech" ?

Comparing people's race to those who are participating in abominable sin is typical of the sodomites. There is no comparison between a race and an abominable sin.

1 Kings 14

24And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

 

[ChavaK]

What's their gender icon blue or pink?

Jase is definitely of the male persuasion.

 

[yonah_mishael]

There was actually an article I remembered checking out that noted that "Gay" is now considered to be the new "n-word"---as seen here.

That link led me nowhere. The word "gay" isn't offensive. "Sodomite" is a slap in the face, as is "f-a-g" or "f-a-g-g-o-t" or "dyke."

(The word filter even removed those words.)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That link led me nowhere. The word "gay" isn't offensive. "Sodomite" is a slap in the face, as is "f-a-g" or "f-a-g-g-o-t" or "dyke.")

Determining whether or not the word "gay" is offensive" is really determined by the circles you walk in...and for those places where "gay" is equated with Sodomite or other terms, it is not as if people don't get upset. Where others are called "gay" in a derisive manner (i.e. "Look at those abnormal gays..."), people have been grieved by it...

Its similar to the term "Colored"---as at one point, it was considered "offensive" to blacks being called such...but it time, the term was owned by many blacks and used as self-description.

 

[INTJ-F]

I don't think they should. However, if someone is trying to blend Judaism and Christianity- in all their forms-it seems to me that is what the definition of a Messianic is.

Guess I'm wrong, though....

Totally wrong.

Messianics obey GOD - not the rabbis and all of their extra burdens they place on people. Just because liberal rabbis teach that sodomites are to be welcome into the congregations does not mean Messianics will accept the unrepentant sodomites.

You seem to be bent on getting Messianics to accept your liberal Judaic theology that accepts all types of sin and abominations because "your rabbi says it's okay"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Every church is full of sinners, and the sixth commandment (as we number them) is broken more by straight people than others. Everyone should be welcome in any congregation claiming to be following Jesus. We all have sins that burden us and that we struggle to repent of.

Amen...for if we're to honor Jesus, it doesn't make sense to avoid going to the very people whom he went after. Including gays/lesbians..

One who may be of interest would be a man known as Alan Hirsh--author of a book called "The Forgotten Ways" and many others.
As Wikipedia summed up in a good manner of his upbringing:

Hirsch was born into a Jewish family in Johannesburg, South Africa in 1959. He moved to Cape Town, in 1963 where he spent most of his childhood and adolescence. Then, he went to university in Cape Town where he studied business and marketing and moved to Australia in 1983 with his family. Although his family was not particularly religious, he was very much influenced by his Jewish heritage as his writings make clear. He also became politically active in opposition to racism as early as thirteen years old because he thought it to be “morally reprehensible”. He served a two years compulsory call-up in the South African military where he was “first introduced to drugs and then Jesus”. Although he was not around many Christians in his childhood, he recounts having deeply religious experiences and being fascinated with Jesus as a teenager. After having moved to Australia, he had a life-changing experience with the Holy Spirit that has deeply affected him. Soon after moving, he married Debra who was living on "the margins of society" like Alan. They have been married and in Christian ministry together for over twenty years.

​

As they noted, He is Jewish and one of the men who is my heros, seeing how he often works in very rough areas that many do not wish to touch. ...especially as it concerns the homeless, drug abusers, gays and lesbians. He also has a brother named Lawrence Hirsh who also does work with the Jewish community and has gotten in trouble for being "unorthodox" in some ways...and for more, one can go online/investigate his ministry of Lawrence Hirsch | Celebrate Messiah or see the article entitled [PDF] Jesus-Believing Jews in Australia: Celebrate Messiah as a Case Study. For more on Alan, one can go here, here , here or here. Also, for more on his books, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "NextReformation.com - Review: The Shaping of Things to Come"







Additionally, to hear his testimony, One can also go here:

Untamed -- Alan Hirsch -- 1/2 ​

Untamed -- Alan Hirsch -- 2/2 ​

I believe I live under the New Covenant, and I believe the death sentence for sinners has been borne by Jesus. I don't believe you can live under contradictory covenants or laws.
Ever read this?

If you truly believed that God's laws remained "intact" then you would have to execute by stoning the homosexual. ".

That is something that I've often seen not truly addressed in fullness...for if saying that the death penalty doesn't apply while also saying that we're not given "free reign" to do whatever we wish, then it seems inconsistent to look at others as "not keeping the LAW" when one already doesn't do so---and ultimately, EVERYONE here is "picking and choosing". Thus, either there needs to be grace given for all since all are leaving it up to their own judgement on what they wish to observe of the Torah from the OT---or there needs to be a line given on what in the OT was said to apply fully pernametly. For one cannot have their cake and eat it too, IMHO.

 

[yonah_mishael]

That's what God calls them - are you claiming His words to be "hate speech" ?

Comparing people's race to those who are participating in abominable sin is typical of the sodomites. There is no comparison between a race and an abominable sin.

1 Kings 14

24And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

God didn't write the King James Bible.

The Hebrew word used there is קְדֵשִׁים kdeishim. If you were attacking kdeishim (singular, kadesh), then I would agree with you. The Bible says that a kadesh is a very abominable thing.

However, in modern parlance, the word "sodomite" is an abusive term used to slam gay men and keep them in their place. This is not what the word kadesh meant.