Messianic Judaism vs. Conservative Christianity

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Jase

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Now Messiah Yeshua is the High Priest. He will decide when and where to carry out His judgment. What makes you think we have the authority to decide when and where judgment will be carried out???

Why are those who disagree and argue with MJ allowed to be in this forum and harass those who obey Torah? Isn't this suppose to be a safe place? They should take their anti-Torah stance to the liberal "christianity" boards.

Shouldn't those who hold to conservative Christian theology take their conservative views to the conservative boards then?

Telling gays and transgenders they are not allowed in worship services is not obeying the Torah (ignoring the fact that you don't follow the majority anyway). Judaism is becoming more and more understanding of this issue in light of modern understanding. It's the legalistic traditionalists who continue to refuse to see the light, both in Judaism and Christianity.
 
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Jase

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You do know that the death penalty in the Torah was a deterrent right? It was basically never carried out. Not to mention, homosexuality as a you claim, could not have been the crime being talked about, since there is no way that would meet the burden of proof under Jewish law (hence why no man has ever been charged with it according to the Talmud). Pagan prostitution was the only same-sex activity that could potentially meet legal criteria.
 
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INTJ-F

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Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:26-27

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their

women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.
 
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Jase

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Why do we need to read someone else's propaganda / doctrines when we have the bible with the Holy Spirit to guide us?
35,000 Christian denominations proves the Holy Spirit isn't guiding people to the same viewpoint.


so why are you in the MJ forum trying to tell us what to believe and not believe? Go back to your anglican forum and leave us alone unless you want to understand what we believe and why.

Another one 'Plunk'
Excuse me INTJ, but you're the one not acting like a Messianic Jew. Your views are identical to Fundamentalist Christianity. I don't know why you're attacking CM. CM is as welcome here as anyone else.
 
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yedida

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I'd rather this thread not get closed down due to gay bashing though. However, it is confirming my suspicions that this forum seems to be more like Conservative Christianity than Judaism.

I don't think it is.
My error would be the misunderstanding of translation, and I will look into it further. But there is the prohibition of a man not being with another man and the same for women. Gotta take a second look at that one.
I do not consider myself conservative christian. I don't use that term at all for myself. But I am still in the learning curve of MJ, it's still pretty new to me.
 
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Jase

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Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:26-27

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their

women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.

Bible not written in English. For example, homosexual was not added to Corinthians until 1958 A.D. For the entire Reformation, it condemned masturbators. Philo, Paul's contemporary, said it referred to Shrine Prostitutes, and confirmed that it's based on Mosaic Law which also was condemning Shrine prostitutes.

Leviticus is about temple prostitutes having sex during pagan fertility rituals to the god Molech.

Romans 1 is a reference to Plato regarding unbridled passion. Paul was condemning pederasty and prostitution common among the Romans and Greeks as it was obscuring the truth of God. Paul's audience was heterosexual (hence the "exchanged" comment).

I've done so much research on these verses it's not even funny. They do not mean what you think they mean, and I'm frankly so tired of having to repeat myself hundreds of times to people who quote modern day English translations out of context and culture to demonize an entire minority. This is a perfect example of why I'm learning to despise Christianity.
 
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yedida

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35,000 Christian denominations proves the Holy Spirit isn't guiding people to the same viewpoint.


Excuse me INTJ, but you're the one not acting like a Messianic Jew. Your views are identical to Fundamentalist Christianity. I don't know why you're attacking CM. CM is as welcome here as anyone else.


Jase, for what it's worth INTJ did not know that CM is a Jewish Christian but she does know that someone who isn't Jewish cannot come in here with an Anglican icon (or any icon other than MJ) and teach/debate against what MJ believes.
 
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Jase

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I don't think it is.
My error would be the misunderstanding of translation, and I will look into it further. But there is the prohibition of a man not being with another man and the same for women. Gotta take a second look at that one.
I do not consider myself conservative christian. I don't use that term at all for myself. But I am still in the learning curve of MJ, it's still pretty new to me.

Aside from the nuances of the Hebrew, the mere fact that the clause "as with a woman" is added should provoke questions. Why doesn't it just say "A man shall not have consensual relations with another man"? A man can't sleep with a man the same way he does a woman, so obviously that verse is adding a specific condition. In Hebrew, it says something to the effect of "lay the layings of a woman". There is no real way to translate that in English.

I would also point out that verse uses the verb shakab for to lie, which seems to always be used to refer to forced/deceptive sexual practice in the Bible (for example when Lot's daughters got him drunk and raped him).

And, if you look at the entire chapter of Leviticus 18, it switches it's theme after verse 20 and starts specifically talking about pagan practices in temples of the fertility god Molech. The prostitution concept is confirmed in Deuteronomy 23, where it says an Israelite will not become a shrine prostitute (translated as "sodomite" in the KJV).

Philo, Paul's contemporary also stated it refered to Shrine prostitution, and compared Paul's condemnation in Corinthians to that practice.
 
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INTJ-F

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But there is the prohibition of a man not being with another man and the same for women.

Next the zoophiles will be here defending their inappropriate behavior with animals.

So now it's "sodomite bashing" by just quoting scripture? and it's "conservative Christianity" by quoting scripture? This is a MESSIANIC JUDAISM form - not a Rabbinic Judaism form. Last I heard, the Orthodox still considered sodomy a sin. If that's changed does that mean we have to follow them and not what God says?
 
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Jase

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Jase, for what it's worth INTJ did not know that CM is a Jewish Christian but she does know that someone who isn't Jewish cannot come in here with an Anglican icon (or any icon other than MJ) and teach/debate against what MJ believes.

Just saw his icon. Although that's so arbitrary, since anyone can throw on an MJ icon and post here, even if they are 100% Christian. INTJ's views are just identical to what I see in the Fundamentalist/Conservative forums which is why I made this thread in the 1st place. I see no difference so it's very confusing.
 
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INTJ-F

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CM is a Jewish Christian but she does know that someone who isn't Jewish cannot come in here with an Anglican icon

There parentage should have nothing to do with it. If they are anglican, then obviously they are not MJ especially when they attack MJ beliefs. That would be like me saying I can go to the baptist forum and attack their beliefs because I was raised baptist. Their ancestory should not give them the right to attack others beliefs.
 
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Jase

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Next the zoophiles will be here defending their inappropriate behavior with animals.
Being attracted to members of the same sex is not equivalent to inappropriate behavior with animals. Stop with the strawman arguments and red herrings.

So now it's "sodomite bashing" by just quoting scripture?
Considering a sodomite in the Bible is a temple prostitute, not a gay person, yes.

and it's "conservative Christianity" by quoting scripture?
If you're completely ignoring the Hebrew/Greek and cultural context yes.

This is a MESSIANIC JUDAISM form - not a Rabbinic Judaism form. Last I heard, the Orthodox still considered sodomy a sin. If that's changed does that mean we have to follow them and not what God says?
Last I checked, heterosexuals are more guilty of sodomy than gays - so clearly the Orthodox hold the same views as Augustine - most sex is bad.

And I didn't realize Messianic Judaism was identical to Fundamentalist Christianity.
 
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yedida

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As of late there have been quite a few antinomian MJs come in here. So this doesn't surprise me much.
I may be taking a break from here. I don't like having to defend my beliefs here, we're not supposed to have to. It's just wrong.
All these people are doing is messing up a really nice place to fellowship with all their divisiveness.
 
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Jase

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There parentage should have nothing to do with it. If they are anglican, then obviously they are not MJ especially when they attack MJ beliefs. That would be like me saying I can go to the baptist forum and attack their beliefs because I was raised baptist. Their ancestory should not give them the right to attack others beliefs.

And what exactly are MJ beliefs that CM is attacking? You've been here 2 weeks. He's been here 6 years. Why is your view more valid than his? (Especially considering his views seem to be more in line with MJ beliefs).
 
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Jase

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As of late there have been quite a few antinomian MJs come in here. So this doesn't surprise me much.
I may be taking a break from here. I don't like having to defend my beliefs here, we're not supposed to have to. It's just wrong.
All these people are doing is messing up a really nice place to fellowship with all their divisiveness.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to cause divisiveness. But there is no claim as to what an MJs beliefs must be. I've been a Messianic Jew for 13 years. I should be just as welcome here as anyone else, but I also disagree with the Conservative Christian views that seem to dominate this forum.
 
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yedida

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I'm sorry, I'm not trying to cause divisiveness. But there is no claim as to what an MJs beliefs must be. I've been a Messianic Jew for 13 years. I should be just as welcome here as anyone else, but I also disagree with the Conservative Christian views that seem to dominate this forum.


If you don't know what Messianics believe how can you possibly be one?
 
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INTJ-F

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If you don't know what Messianics believe how can you possibly be one?

Obviously this person thinks because they are Jewish by birth and now "accepted Jesus" it makes them Messianic. They have absolutely no clue what Messianic's beliefs are.
 
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yedida

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Obviously this person thinks because they are Jewish by birth and now "accepted Jesus" it makes them Messianic. They have absolutely no clue what Messianic's beliefs are.


I'm finding this out. I wanted no part of churchianity so Messianic Judaism it is.
 
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